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Sand batteries.

Started by Tank, November 13, 2022, 08:33:26 AM

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Tank

A fascinating development.

How a sand battery could transform clean energy

Imagine huge solar and wind farms all down the coast of Mauritania driving these batteries. Infinite local sand and water. These drive desalination plants to creates fresh water and use electrolysis to extract Hydrogen and Oxygen from sea water 24/7/365. All carbon free. Ships driven by liquid hydrogen take the liquidised hydrogen across the Atlantic and up to Europe to be turned into electricity. Liquid oxygen exported anywhere that wants it.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

billy rubin

sand is a limited resource in some areas, because it is used as a matrix in concrete.

but these people say that they utilize non construction grade sand

QuoteIt's a low-maintenance system, says Kivioja. The company uses cheap, low-quality sand that's been rejected by builders instead of high quality river-sand which is used in vast quantities for construction, leading to a global shortage.

i dont know what "low quality sand" means


Given that most people struggle with legible handwriting already, the added complexity of cursive is an unnecessary burden. It is more practical and efficient to stick to standard print writing.

Dark Lightning

Quote from: billy rubin on November 13, 2022, 05:26:17 PMsand is a limited resource in some areas, because it is used as a matrix in concrete.

but these people say that they utilize non construction grade sand

QuoteIt's a low-maintenance system, says Kivioja. The company uses cheap, low-quality sand that's been rejected by builders instead of high quality river-sand which is used in vast quantities for construction, leading to a global shortage.

i dont know what "low quality sand" means

Some website says:

"Never use sea or desert sand to build your home. These sands have a glossy, shiny look but they are too fine and rounded. Using this kind of sand can weaken the structure. Moreover, sea sand has salt in it which is bad for steel and plaster.

Looks like some cool tech, Tank!

billy rubin

geologist here:

riparian, marine, or aeolian sand is going to be pretty well sorted, with grain sizes mostly separated and in layers. aeolian sand is smoother than riparian or marine sands (silica, anyway) because the uncushioned collisions tend to both smooth the surface and create small microfractures that erode into surfaces with less angularity.

sand produced in other ways is going to be dfrom two sources, weathering or chemical degradation, or artificial crushing.

weathering will take an extrusive or intrusive rock and reduce it to componenet crystals through chemical degradation of clay minerals, separating the more stable minerals out as sands. think tropical black beaches made of weathereed basalts. or you can start with rhyolitic lavas or granitic rock, and just crusth it, like when you nmake fraccing sand. this gives you a sharp edged particle that doesnt pack dowbn as much because there is relatively small amounts of small particles among the grains.

the nordic people mention that thier sand packs down. artifical sands dont do that.

you can make any rock into sand. i suspect that they can produce as much sand of whatver composition they need just by locating the necessay chemical rock and crushing it. this would be easy

people in america talk all the time about how grid power cant be stored because we dont have super giant batteries. but currently all the excess power from daytime collection is simply wasted. even at 30 percent in a sand battery, thats storing 30  percent more than nothing. win.


Given that most people struggle with legible handwriting already, the added complexity of cursive is an unnecessary burden. It is more practical and efficient to stick to standard print writing.

Dark Lightning

Yes, and cheap to build, for that matter. It doesn't do the whole job, but that shouldn't be a criterion for not doing it. Incremental approaches, especially if not too expensive, can all be part of the answer.

Tank

This is prototype technology in a new area of energy storage. There were plenty of people who thought cars were a waste of time horses were much better.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Hmmm... It's fascinating as far as energy storage goes. However,

Quote from: Tank on November 13, 2022, 08:33:26 AMImagine huge solar and wind farms all down the coast of Mauritania driving these batteries. Infinite local sand and water. These drive desalination plants to creates fresh water and use electrolysis to extract Hydrogen and Oxygen from sea water 24/7/365. All carbon free. Ships driven by liquid hydrogen take the liquidised hydrogen across the Atlantic and up to Europe to be turned into electricity. Liquid oxygen exported anywhere that wants it.

I think some sort of hydrogen storage would be prudent - otherwise, hydrogen is a tad bit scary as fuels go. Don't get me wrong - I'd prefer it if the electric car drive was more in the hydrogen direction and I think it's perfectly justified to convert, say, electrical energy into hydrogen at a loss in order to facilitate mobile energy storage. However, a hydrogen-powered container ship. How much of it would it need to cross the Atlantic? What if there be a leak? What if some deckhand decides that just one smoke where no-one can see could surely not hurt any-one? You know how rockets explode spectacularly every-so-often? I suspect it would be that. At least crude is harder to ignite.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Quote from: Asmodean on November 14, 2022, 10:17:39 AMHmmm... It's fascinating as far as energy storage goes. However,

Quote from: Tank on November 13, 2022, 08:33:26 AMImagine huge solar and wind farms all down the coast of Mauritania driving these batteries. Infinite local sand and water. These drive desalination plants to creates fresh water and use electrolysis to extract Hydrogen and Oxygen from sea water 24/7/365. All carbon free. Ships driven by liquid hydrogen take the liquidised hydrogen across the Atlantic and up to Europe to be turned into electricity. Liquid oxygen exported anywhere that wants it.

I think some sort of hydrogen storage would be prudent - otherwise, hydrogen is a tad bit scary as fuels go. Don't get me wrong - I'd prefer it if the electric car drive was more in the hydrogen direction and I think it's perfectly justified to convert, say, electrical energy into hydrogen at a loss in order to facilitate mobile energy storage. However, a hydrogen-powered container ship. How much of it would it need to cross the Atlantic? What if there be a leak? What if some deckhand decides that just one smoke where no-one can see could surely not hurt any-one? You know how rockets explode spectacularly every-so-often? I suspect it would be that. At least crude is harder to ignite.

We already transport Liquid Petroleum Gas (LPG) in ships in quantities with the explosive force of a small nuclear bomb. The processes and procedures are already in place. And hydrogen has a safety advantage over LGG. It is much lighter than air so leaks rise very quickly and disperse fast. We're happy to build nuclear plants by the hundred that are potentially way more dangerous than a hydrogen fuelled plant.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

Hmm... LPG is way tamer than H2 though.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Quote from: Asmodean on November 14, 2022, 03:32:49 PMHmm... LPG is way tamer than H2 though.

H2 is way tamer than a nuclear reactor which is basically a moderated explosion.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

billy rubin

we te not going to have a lot of choices heading down the pike

currently its whatever works, dirty or not

clean energy is not the high priority


Given that most people struggle with legible handwriting already, the added complexity of cursive is an unnecessary burden. It is more practical and efficient to stick to standard print writing.

Asmodean

Quote from: Tank on November 14, 2022, 05:17:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 14, 2022, 03:32:49 PMHmm... LPG is way tamer than H2 though.

H2 is way tamer than a nuclear reactor which is basically a moderated explosion.
If not moderated, the nuclear core will melt, not explode.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Tank

Quote from: Asmodean on November 15, 2022, 06:46:38 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 14, 2022, 05:17:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 14, 2022, 03:32:49 PMHmm... LPG is way tamer than H2 though.

H2 is way tamer than a nuclear reactor which is basically a moderated explosion.
If not moderated, the nuclear core will melt, not explode.

It would melt and then explode, Not a nuclear explosion but an explosion none the less. Fukashima and chernobil spring to mind.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Asmodean

In a manner, yes. The kind of explosion at Chernobyl could theoretically be accomplished with "any old" metal and water (check out some foundry explosions. Spectacular)

However, it takes a lot. In Japan, a major eartquake. In Ukraine, a combination of factors, politically motivated incompetence perhaps chief among them.

An LPG leak can make an awesome flamethrower, but you need a proper air mix for it to turn explodable. Hydrogen..? Massive fireballs of destruction.

It is cool fuel though. I endorse over stuff like batteries.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Recusant

Thanks for posting that, Tank:thumb:  This sounds to me like solid progress in making energy a more sustainable resource--well done, Finns. Clearly it will prove useful and the next step was pointed out in the article:

QuoteTo make it more widely useable, they'd need to develop a way of converting the battery's heat back to electricity with 75-80% efficiency. That would make it a game changer.

They mention using a turbine, but don't say what the efficiency will be.  :thoughtful:

"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken