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Started by billy rubin, January 26, 2021, 11:15:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 27, 2021, 01:49:39 PMSo I walk into a store and a worker says, "hi, how are you doing today?"I lie and say, "just fine."I do not think they are subordinate to me, I do not think they don't deserve the truth. But I do think that taking the time to explain the truth about how I'm doing is worse than saying two words so we can both go about our day. I don't see how anyone is harmed in this common scenario, but I do see how all parties involved benefit from my lie.With every action, it's not necessarily the action itself that is harmful, it is what happens from it. Punching in the air is fine, punching a sparing partner is good, but punching a random person on the street is bad. Context matters far more than the action.I have a co-worker who works in a different department who lies all the time to make him not look like the terrible applications developer he is, and I often get hurt by the results and have to do far more work defending my work than is reasonable. His lies on this matter harms others in order to help himself. Context is what makes the difference when determining if something is harmful or not. Even lies.
Quote from: billy rubin on January 27, 2021, 01:38:50 AMQuote from: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2021, 12:34:10 AMIf you don't mind me asking, what were the two lies you told? Did they shape your belief that all lies dehumanise their victims or did you already hold that conviction?i lied to IBM about an employee who was dying of cancer and couldn't afford to buy both the antidote to the chemo and food at the same time. even though he could no longer work, i signed his time sheet every week so he could get paid. eventually i went to the IBM contact and explained what i was doing. he told me, keep the man on the payroll whether he works or not.the second time i was workign wellhead on a frac job. we were lubricating a well head valve and in a moment of confusion i pulled the wrong valve and cut the wire holding up the guns down hole, it cost the usual three million dollars or so to go in and grind the guns up to clear the hole.at first i didn't want to admit that it had been me that had cut the wireline, and to be honest, i wasn;'t sure it had been me in the dark and the confusion. but after a few days of going over it, i decided that it had to be me who had done it, and so i went to my supervisors and took responsibility. i was firesd, but other people who were in line to be blamed were able to keep their jobs. over time, i have decided for sure that it was me that cut the wireline. i my opinion, there is no lie that is excuseable. all lies require that you make a decision that someone else does not deserve to know the truth-- that they are somehow subordinate to the liar. to lie to someone, especially the traditional white lie, is to relegate them to an inferior position, subordinate to one which the liar reserves to himeself alone. the only other lies are the ones where someone lies to take advantage of someone else. but those generally do not engender controversey.there is an extremely difficult special case to all of this, which is the situation of the jew in the closet. my views of how to manage this dilemma have changed over time, and i'm frankly not sure how i look at it now."leaving the truth unsaid" is different from lying, unless the intention is to convey a false impression of the truth. there are lots of things that i simply don't tell people, because i don't regard telling the truth and answering all questions to be the same thing. but if silence misrepresents somethjing i know to be true, i cnsider myself obligated to speak up and correct the misapprehension.the mantra i use isdo not lie.do not misrepresent.do not decieve by silence.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2021, 12:34:10 AMIf you don't mind me asking, what were the two lies you told? Did they shape your belief that all lies dehumanise their victims or did you already hold that conviction?
Quote from: billy rubin on January 28, 2021, 09:29:15 PMi don't lie, but i pick my battles when i live in a world that values deceit over honesty, appeasement over confrontation, and social facilitation over integrity. in that respect, i agree with your author that i save my honesty for those people who appreciate truth.
Quote from: billy rubinbut unlike the author, i haven't concluded that lie are necessary to live. i don't sugarcoat truth, and i don't look for easy ways out of situations where the truth is dificult. sometimes i choose not to participate in a conversation where the truth is awkward and i have no dog in the fight. but if i am asked for my view oe decide to give it, then that is what they get. this causes me problems with some people, but they are problems that i am perfectly willing to have.
Quote from: billy rubinin my opinion, truth is a necessary f5oundation of every worthwhile human experience and human relationship.
Quote from: billy rubinif you don't treat yourself or someone else with honesty, you do noot have a real life or a real relationship with other people. to the extent that that is important, one must make decisions. in my own case, i pick and choose who i want to have a relationship with, and some people don't qualify. but i don't lie to those folks.i just ignore them, as someone with with whom a meaningful relationship isn't possible. and i don't lie to myself.maybe this is a cold view, but its the only valid way i see to live
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 29, 2021, 03:38:16 PM/quote]Ok, thanks for satiating my curiosity. In both of those cases when you lied, there were victims. That makes it easier to see those lies as 'wrong'.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 29, 2021, 03:44:57 PMA quick question, billy rubin: how do you think society as a whole would benefit if everybody only told the truth?
Quote from: No one on January 29, 2021, 04:30:54 PMOf course, life would be a dream. Gumdrops and rainbows.
Quote from: billy rubin on January 29, 2021, 07:11:48 PMi dont see any advantages of lying that outweigh the harm done by the betrayal.
Quote from: No one on January 29, 2021, 08:17:01 PMWould they prefer sugar and spice and everything nice?