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George Floyd

Started by Magdalena, May 31, 2020, 02:20:45 AM

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Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 12:50:28 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 11:56:54 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 08, 2020, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 08, 2020, 04:02:10 PM
This guy, dressed suspiciously as a fire fighter sitting in a car right outside his fire station, was apparently very suspicious for some reason.



Officers that see phantom guns, I think, should be riding the desk. That kind of eye or hallucination problem I think should disqualify them from operating guns in the public.
That's so messed up.
My man goes through this shit all the time. They pull him over, handcuff him, placed in a police car while they search the car, then they let him go. I live with fear thinking one day they're gonna kill him just for driving to work while being brown.

Like this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/philando-castile-minnesota-black-man-killed-by-police-family-speaks-out/
I've been stopped by the police on several occasions when I've been doing nothing wrong. It's not great.

And Castile is a sad example to bring up. He followed all the orders of the cop. He did nothing wrong. And he was still shot dead. It's not the first time something like that has happened.

What is at issue here, is that I am an American citizen who obeys most of the laws (I do go +5 over the speed limit from time to time). People say I should just comply with anything the officer says like I'm a hostage. As soon as a cop decides I'm suspicious, for whatever random, fucked up, inconsistent reason they feel like on that day, I'm supposed to just do whatever they say like I have no rights. And that is supremely fucked up. And it's fucked up that people support that. We should have unassailable rights as free law abiding citizens of this country. I get that in some situations, some things might be skirted. Cops should not have the power that they currently have.

And it would be great if I could trust the system, that they take care of and weed out the bad apples. But that clearly is not happening. Cops are getting transferred like the pedo priests in the Catholic Church. One guy got fired and then hired back for a few months so he could get a pension. But it's like the saying goes, "a few apples spoil the bunch." But I feel like people keep thinking that a few bad apples means things aren't so bad.

I should not have public servants roll up on me three cars deep and pull their guns on me while I'm walking down the sidewalk to college. I should not of had to be the calm one in the situation like I had to be when I was being held up at gun point. It's fucked up. It's been fucked up for a long time. And I'm fed up with things going backwards.
I hear you, Davin. My man has survived because when the po-po asks him for his driver's license, he always says to them:
" It's in my back pocket. Can I take it out?" When they reply, "Yes." He takes it out.
:secrets1: Just to avoid,
:airquotes: misunderstandings. :airquotes:

It's like being in front of a T-rex.


It's fucked up. It shouldn't be like that.
That's the best one can do, but it doesn't guarantee safety.

First it's fucked up that in this country we have to give advice to people on how to survive a police encounter. And it's further fucked up that that advice is the same advice we give to hostages.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on June 09, 2020, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on June 09, 2020, 01:30:55 AM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 12:17:00 AM

These violent protestor sure was giving the protests against police brutality a bad name. Look how violent the 75 year old man was being.

Watch the "few bad apples" walk right by and do nothing while he's bleeding from his ear. Well, at least it looks like one of the "good ones" was going to help the old man they just shoved to the ground, but the bad apples just wouldn't let him. Because a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

That's just so fucked up. Like, really fucked up.
Do you want to hear what's more fucked up than that?

Florida police organization offers to hire cops who were fired or resigned over police misconduct
Quote
...On Saturday, the Brevard County chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police posted a message on Facebook addressed to the "Buffalo 57" and "Atlanta 6," saying that it was "hiring."

"Buffalo 57" appears to refer to the 57 police officers in Buffalo, New York, who resigned from the force's emergency response team following the suspension of two officers who were captured on video pushing a 75-year-old protester to the ground.

"Atlanta 6" refers to the six Atlanta police officers who were booked, five on felony charges, after being accused of using excessive force on two black college students who were leaving a protest in their car. In a video recording of the incident, the officers are seen breaking the vehicle's windows, pulling the female student out of the car and tasing the male student.
...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html
Also, the squad cheered for the two officers who were charged on their way out of the court house.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

Here's a small montage of some brutal police being brutal to people protesting police brutality.


Some of them bad apples that people are protesting about are on protest duty. Too bad all these violent protests are giving the protestors a bad name instead of these clearly non-violent police.

Also, it's important to remember that the spray they are using against our fellow citizens is a war crime.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tom62

I don't know if replacing he police by something else would be a good idea. If you are going to that then the new "police force" would have to perform the same tasks as current police force (minus the brutality, of course). So replacing one police force by something similar doesn't seem to bring much. In any case you'd have to train the substitutes and if you want to have them properly trained that would costs years. In the meanwhile you'd need a transition period where tasks are shifted from one organisation to another. There is a likelihood that this could backfire enormously.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

de-militarizing is a good place to start. in america the military disposes of its surplus vehicles and armamnt by donating it to police forces. my local force in a town in california had an armoured humvee with a machine gun turret on top. here in ohio, the local force has an surplus personnell carrier that they use to drive cops around in.

for what?

all that this does is perpetuate the warrior culture that american police have devolved into. these people are not supposed to be soldiers, but that is ho w they think of themselves, and that is how they are equipped. instead of being there to "serve and protect," they see their role being to "intimidate and enforce."

perhaps removing the helmets and shields and projectile weapons from riot cops would help in changing their minds about who they are.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Randy

My first wife had a friend whose husband was a cop. We were invited to their apartment one evening for drinks.

Naturally, he and I talked while the women talked in the kitchen. He said something along the lines of how he didn't trust people like me. I'm not sure what he meant by that now but my reply was, "That's okay. I don't trust you either." We weren't drunk. In fact, I think we were on our first beer.

Anyway, I have my reasons and maybe one day I'll explain them but I've had some bad dealings with cops. I've had some good ones too but the bad ones make me leery. She was a detective and I'll leave it at that.
"Maybe it's just a bunch of stuff that happens." -- Homer Simpson
"Some people focus on the destination. Atheists focus on the journey." -- Barry Goldberg

billy rubin

there is a need for police in our culture, no doubt about it. while 99 percent of what they do is talk to people and write stuff down after a crime has been committed and the culprit is long gone, they do respond to hostage situations, domestic violence, and crazy people doing crazy things that endanger people.

in a civil society there is a need for someone to have doing that as their job.

but the procedures that are necessary to counter and subdue dangerous people who are a threat to others have no place being used against people who are not dangerous and who are not posing a threat to other people.

that behavior is condoned by the police culture that we have now, and the culture is what needs to change. i'm not sure that it can change, as i have seen a continuation of brutality by the police for my entire lifetime. i ride a motorcycle, and i have had my occasional encounter with abrasive police officers who assume that i am something to intimidate because of that.

i think eliminating the police is a bad idea, but i think its underlying structure is badly in need of a radical redesign. im very interested to see what minneapolis comes up with, and how well it works.





more people have been to berlin than i have

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say.
Before I answer your question, I really have to know how it can sound like a Utopian fantasy to you before you even asked me to say anything about it?

And how does your imaginary version that you created in your own head sound any more Utopian than the tried and failed for decades way you mentioned for correcting the problem.

Also, it may fix the completely made up and imaginary version you created in your head to understand that we've been defunding schools for decades, and schools are still around.

Obviously, we have not completely defunded schools.  We fund them through taxes. That is why they are there.  Nobody is saying we should stop providing money for schools. The calls for defunding police are related to completely disbanding PDs.  The reason this is Utopian is because it envisions a world in which we do not need security provided by a professional force.  But if you have some proposal, I would like to hear it.

There are problems with police. But except for situations like George Floyd, they generally provide a valuable service of keeping society safe. Rather than throw the baby out with the bath water, my position is that we double down on rooting out institutional racism in the PDs.  I don't think we have really given a concerted effort to that.

I realize you disagree with me - that is clear. But rather than pointing out your disagreement with me, propose an alternative solution.

Davin

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 10, 2020, 04:21:30 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 09, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 09, 2020, 03:27:55 PM
Seems like a Utopian fantasy to me, but let's hear what you have to say.
Before I answer your question, I really have to know how it can sound like a Utopian fantasy to you before you even asked me to say anything about it?

And how does your imaginary version that you created in your own head sound any more Utopian than the tried and failed for decades way you mentioned for correcting the problem.

Also, it may fix the completely made up and imaginary version you created in your head to understand that we've been defunding schools for decades, and schools are still around.

Obviously, we have not completely defunded schools.  We fund them through taxes. That is why they are there.  Nobody is saying we should stop providing money for schools.
Woosh. Too far over your head, huh?

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
The calls for defunding police are related to completely disbanding PDs.
This statement makes it look like you're not listening to the calls. You are taking a very minority opinion as the overall opinion and implying there are no other opinions.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
The reason this is Utopian is because it envisions a world in which we do not need security provided by a professional force.  But if you have some proposal, I would like to hear it.
Yes, this why people like using straw men instead of what is actually said, because they are easy to defeat.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
There are problems with police. But except for situations like George Floyd, they generally provide a valuable service of keeping society safe. Rather than throw the baby out with the bath water, my position is that we double down on rooting out institutional racism in the PDs.  I don't think we have really given a concerted effort to that.
I like your optimistic and naive view that makes things safe for you and doesn't risk anything you currently have while possibly, sometime in the future, fix the problems that people other than you are facing. Very courageous stance.

Yes, we're so safe that any encounter with a police officer makes us a hostage without any certainty they will not overstep and harm or kill us for irrational reasons. With little to no enforcement for those that do overstep. Even with video evidence available showing bad cops doing bad things, they get a paid vacation, maybe moved to another precinct like a Catholic pedo priest, or fired in very rare situations.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
I realize you disagree with me - that is clear. But rather than pointing out your disagreement with me, propose an alternative solution.
Well, since you seemed to miss the point of my last post entirely. What does it matter if we talk, if you've already made up your mind?

You said my ideas were a Utopian fantasy, before I said what those ideas were. That's a lot of irrational bias that works against having an honest discussion that you expect me to work against. I'm trying to have an honest discussion, it would work better if you were as well.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tom62

Sorry to say so, but I find the arguments of this pastor very convincing

The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

billy rubin

what did he say?

i live in the land of slo-fi, and if a video doesn't do something after 60 seconds i move on.


more people have been to berlin than i have

jumbojak

He said that in Cleveland crime went up after cuts were made to the police budget to provide other essential services, which is neither here nor there in discussing replacing the current model of policing with something different. Arguing that more crime results from a smaller number of police officers who behave in the same way as a larger number of police officers is silly. The problem is police behavior, which is a result of the current structure of law enforcement in the US. You can't expect the same people operating under the same rules to behave differently.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Icarus

Billy, What he said was that all cops are not bad cops. He had been intimidated by a cop on more than one occasion, he had instructed his son about how to behave when he was stopped when driving while black. The minister was careful to say that most cops are not bad guys and most of them are not dedicated racists.

When we translate the pastors commentary, it means that our society is a mixed bag and that there are some of us that are fucked up with some kind of learned hate.   I concur. There are some of us, mostly the unsophisticated clods who never read a book or newspaper, who are either closeted or outed racists.
...

My sermon: Some cops are stupid bastards who have some sort of superiority complex that they believe entitles them to abuse or even kill people that they believe are unworthy.  Well surprise, surprise. The problem is not exclusive to cops.  I have worked with engineers who were stupid bastards with a complex. Some of our Lawyers, accountants, politicians, and doctors also suffer from the hate syndrome. Most of those professionals have actually read books and newspapers but have  chosen sources that cater to the preconceived notions that they had already embraced. In defense of the above professionals, I agree that most of them do not kill people directly. Neither do the vast majority of cops kill people as a sport.


Ecurb Noselrub

Well, it appears Davin does not want to tell us his plan to defund police.  I suppose I must remain in my ignorance.

Davin

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 11, 2020, 02:27:24 AM
Well, it appears Davin does not want to tell us his plan to defund police.  I suppose I must remain in my ignorance.
You acted in bad faith, until that is resolved, there is no point in moving on to a nuanced discussion because it does not look like you can handle it.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.