Is Europe 'Anti-American'?

[Mister Joy]

This is to Americans and Europeans alike. Both perspectives would be interesting (if we can avoid a nation-bashing fest).

I've been hearing a lot from sources like CNN, my own PM and youtube that there is a growing 'anti-Americanism' across Europe, for various reasons. Here's the CNN article:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/14/sprj.irq.protests.rodgers.otsc/

and 'anti-Americanism', as far as I understand the usage of the term, implies a prejudice against America as a whole. I think it's true to an extent... can't say for sure because I'm not hugely familiar with the French/German/Austrian/Swedish/etc. perspective on things but I can tell you it's true for England at least. Although the English love to hate... so it's to be taken with a pinch of salt. They despise everyone, including each other and antagonism is almost a form of affection. Also, it isn't really CNN news worthy and it's getting blown well out of proportions.

In fact, the way in which this is being examined by the American media (like that article) stikes me as very strange. The Europeans are very against the war in Iraq, for instance - I haven't met a single person in the UK who supports it even partially and it seems to be a similar affair in places like Germany and France from what I hear - yet this seems to get included in the 'anti-americanism' category. The implication being that criticism of the war, Guantanamo Bay, George Bush etc. is a result of anti-American prejudice... and if that's the case then a great number of Americans are anti-American, presumably. The growth of anti-American prejudice in Europe is the direct result of the way Europeans perceive the war in Iraq, the 'war on terror', US foreign policy etc., not the other way around. You'd have thought this would be obvious. People are annoyed about these things because they affect us, and that has inevitably and unfortunately resulted in stereotyping, piss taking and a generally rather stupid attitude towards America and Americans as a whole in a minority of Europeans. That's what's going on, in my opinion.

It certainly isn't because "After two generations of guilt, young Germans demonstrating against the United States and against war now feel good about themselves because it is the United States, not Germany, that is seen by many as the aggressive warmonger." for instance. I'm not sure whether this is intended as a snide remark... but even if it isn't it's still unfathomably ignorant and patronising. What has WWII got to do with any of this? Why does it keep getting mentioned alongside this subject, always with the same impressive vagueness? The Germans criticise the business in Iraq because it deserves criticism, not because they're collectively bitter about being 'the bad guys' back in the 1930s/40s. European relations have moved on a tad since then.

I'll leave it at that for now and wait to see what other people have to say.

[Moses]

Well here in the states I think it has to do with the two political factions shouting out about it. The liberals say that we are hated in Europe because of the conservative policies such as Iraq and that if we just got a Democrat in the white house the world will love us and be fine. The Conservatives say it is anti american because they benefit from lumping opposition to one of their policies as being unpatriotic and pointing to Europe being against the Iraq war and therefore hating the United States helps rally people around them in a "Us" against "Them" scenario.

[Tom62]

Living in Germany myself, I can clearly say that "After two generations of guilt, young Germans demonstrating against the United States and against war now feel good about themselves because it is the United States, not Germany, that is seen by many as the aggressive warmonger." is plain nonsense. There is no link between WO-II and the war in Iraq. The germans protest because the USA has done exactly what you can expect from a totalitarian regime that shows no respect for human lifes and human rights. Even worse than that they consider the current US president to be an absolute ignorant fool, a wanker and someone who has less intelligence than a fruitfly. Mr. Bush and his stoogies (Tony Blair included) managed to piss-off the whole world by their arrogance. From simple things like not placing a ban on landmines, not signing the Kyoto protocols or excluding themselves from international law to starting an unjustified war, taking away the people's civil rights, torturing people and other evil acts. No wonder that the moslim world sees him as the devil and that they are very angry anout how the US behaves on their home soil. In Germany and most other European countries the people however are not anti-american, but anti-Bush. I don't know any person who hates America, but I do know many people who are very angry about the Bush administration's screwups.

[Will]

Anti-Bushism isn't the same as anti-americanism. Having been to Europe recently , I can tell you one thing: Europeans love me. Especially Germans. I tip well, I'm friendly, I try to learn the language and local customs, and I can't stand Bush. No one but a few crazies like Bush, and Europe knows this. They know his approval rating. They know about protests in the US (because European media actually covers them). I'd like to think we're basically in the same boat.

[Mister Joy]

Well here in the states I think it has to do with the two political factions shouting out about it. The liberals say that we are hated in Europe because of the conservative policies such as Iraq and that if we just got a Democrat in the white house the world will love us and be fine. The Conservatives say it is anti american because they benefit from lumping opposition to one of their policies as being unpatriotic and pointing to Europe being against the Iraq war and therefore hating the United States helps rally people around them in a "Us" against "Them" scenario.

Well then the liberals are closer to the truth. No one here hates Americans (though the occasional attention seeking 13 year old Che Guevara fan may claim to) but a lot of people hate Bush as well as many conservative policies. This one guy put it really well (I forget the name): "If you must have stupid presidents, then I want a vote."

Living in Germany myself, I can clearly say that "After two generations of guilt, young Germans demonstrating against the United States and against war now feel good about themselves because it is the United States, not Germany, that is seen by many as the aggressive warmonger." is plain nonsense.

Course it is. The Germans have better things to do. The equivalent argument for Britain is that we're annoyed about no longer being a huge imperialist superpower, so we take it out on poor old Bush. Ignoring the fact that most of us weren't even alive back then and we're better off now anyway (what with higher standards of living, the NHS, a smaller gap between the rich and the poor, no more poverty, etc.), we're just jealous because we don't have as many nukes as some other countries. Because we're all 5 years old and like to play with battleships. And none of us have anything more important going on in our lives to worry about. Imagine it: "Sorry I couldn't come into work today, I'm just too stressed out about Britain not being imperial any more. I've been starving myself for three weeks."

The germans protest because the USA has done exactly what you can expect from a totalitarian regime that shows no respect for human lifes and human rights. Even worse than that they consider the current US president to be an absolute ignorant fool, a wanker and someone who has less intelligence than a fruitfly. Mr. Bush and his stoogies (Tony Blair included) managed to piss-off the whole world by their arrogance.

Mmhmm. I very much doubt that Gordon Brown will win the next election: he and Blair have well and truly messed it up for themselves by buddying up with Bush (Brown claims little involvement now he's PM but he was behind Blair all the way). They did it in spite of British public opinion - like most of their decisions, in fact - and it has ruined relations with other European countries, to an extent (of course the football hooligans don't really help

Anti-Bushism isn't the same as anti-americanism. Having been to Europe recently , I can tell you one thing: Europeans love me. Especially Germans. I tip well, I'm friendly, I try to learn the language and local customs, and I can't stand Bush. No one but a few crazies like Bush, and Europe knows this. They know his approval rating. They know about protests in the US (because European media actually covers them). I'd like to think we're basically in the same boat.

Exactement. There are idiots in Europe who like to put on a show of xenophobia against the yanks (because it's trendy at the moment in some of the more inbred populations, as I mentioned) but they don't speak for the majority. And because they're so dim-witted, if you ever were to encounter them they'd be pretty easy to deal with anyway. Just tell them that you're Canadian. They'll get all confused and fall over.  

Anti-Bushism on the other hand... well that's everywhere. I think people end up liking Americans more because of that, though. It's fairly apparent to everyone here that a lot of Americans also hate Bush, so there's a sense of empathy. I think Bush-hatred has become a warm, fuzzy blanket of united opinion that has seemingly covered the entire globe. You can go anywhere on Earth and you'll find plenty who agree with the sentiment that Bush is a fool. Talking unfavourably about Bush has become a default conversation booster whenever people are forced to talk to strangers in pubs. You can actually predict when people are going to do it: "ah here comes an awkward silence... someone had better find a subtle way to bring good old Dubbleyuh into the conversation before it gets too prolonged."

[Whitney]

A friend of mine just got back from Italy....well, apparently quite a few of the street venders were calling him "ugly american" through some sort of Italian slang.  He thought it was a greeting and said it to quite a few of th vendors till towards his last day one of the locals told him what it meant after he used it again.  Especially considering the guy isn't ugly....what was said to him shows exactly how well liked Americans are in that part of the world.

[Mister Joy]

That's unfortunate... there's an expression for people like that: street trash . In Britain we call them "chavs" and they seem to exist everywhere in the world in various incarnations. Tribal folk who shout abuse at anyone different from them, for any reason (if you're foreign, dress differently, wear glasses, or whatever). And I have encountered similarly stupid people in the States. A lot of Americans do not like the British, you know (because we're docile tea drinking oppressive imperialist toffs... who apparently don't understand technology). Neither do a lot of Europeans (because we're violent lawless skin-headed football crazed alcoholics who mess up all of their beaches whenever there's a game on). Especially recently, again because of our heavy involvement in Iraq and Tony Blair being a general tit.

Anyhoo, Italy, the US, Spain, France etc. are all great places to go, as a foreigner. It's just the odd few dick heads like the ones your friend encountered who have to try and ruin it for everyone. It's depressing but there we are. Can't let it ruin your vacation.

[SteveS]

Isn't some of this attitude inevitable following the collapse of the Soviet Union?  We used to look at each other more as allies, forgive our little misunderstandings for the sake of mutual protection, that sort of thing.  Now, though, I think we look at each other in a more competitive light.  Why overlook anything anymore?  Its safe to voice dislike, so why not?

Plus, I think there are legitimate differences between the cultures that is going to cause friction.  Add politics into the mix, and I think we have business as usual.

Some of this has to just be tit-for-tat, too.  Poll a sample of Americans, and how many of them would seem "anti-French"?  

[Mister Joy]

Very true.

Wide spread arrogance incites contradicting arrogance. It's impossible to compare nations because ultimately national identity is just a simplistic system of categorisation, and the reality is that we're all separate, very different individuals. People forget that though. My true 'national identity' is me: Mister Joy, population one, boundaries marked by the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. Ultimately I, and only I, represent myself. Nobody else represents me with their actions and I do not represent them with mine. I think that's the most rational and liberating way of seeing things. Otherwise you're either trying to boost your status with achievements that had nothing to do with you - so says the modern American: "Americans invented democracy" - or trying to discredit people for things that they had nothing to do with - so says the modern Frenchman: "Americans invented the atomic bomb". And to be prideful about yourself is a lot less dangerous and much less of a weakness than it is to be prideful about millions of people and their heritage. I may end up denying my own personal character flaws and emphasising my positive traits to preserve my ego and impress others, but that's not so bad. I'd rather do that than deny slavery and British imperialism out of having a stuck up competitive group-think mentality; distorting historical, global, moral and even physical realities and ending up with a very ignorant and destructive world view at the end of it.

Trouble is though, when other people lump you into that group and attack you with what, say, George Bush has done recently, accusations start flying etc., it's difficult to maintain that grasp on reality and not simply accept the group think ideas just so that you can attack them back. It allows you to make reference to some evil dictator or another from their place of birth and say "you're not so wonderful yourself". The whole thing is a bit dim, really.

[SteveS]

My true 'national identity' is me: Mister Joy, population one, boundaries marked by the edge of the Earth's atmosphere. Ultimately I, and only I, represent myself. Nobody else represents me with their actions and I do not represent them with mine. I think that's the most rational and liberating way of seeing things. Otherwise you're either trying to boost your status with achievements that had nothing to do with you - so says the modern American: "Americans invented democracy" - or trying to discredit people for things that they had nothing to do with - so says the modern Frenchman: "Americans invented the atomic bomb".

Well put - I agree with this strongly.

Trouble is though, when other people lump you into that group and attack you with what, say, George Bush has done recently, accusations start flying etc., it's difficult to maintain that grasp on reality and not simply accept the group think ideas just so that you can attack them back. It allows you to make reference to some evil dictator or another from their place of birth and say "you're not so wonderful yourself". The whole thing is a bit dim, really.

 

One place where I do enjoy nationalistic feelings is international sports competitions.  The Olympics, World Cup (soccer & hockey), and like events.  I think in these cases its mostly harmless and makes for a thrilling spectacle.

I agree with your group-think ideas to.  The ever-shifting way we re-categorize ourselves as in-group / out-group.  I'm certainly not immune myself --- when I saw the Trade Center collapse in NYC on 9/11 I can assure you I felt very-very-American.

[Vichy]

From what I've seen in some Germans and Frenchmen I know, they primarily dislike the American (US) government and it's murderous behaviour.  If they resent anything about individual Americans it's probably the fact that so many of them fall prey to the tribalistic lunacy and defend policies and actions far more dangerous than those supposed 'justifications' for the US Mafia's military actions around the world.  Of course, most Germans and Frenchmen are just as willfully ignorant and misinformed about their own government's brutality towards it's own citizens.

[McQ]

From what I've seen in some Germans and Frenchmen I know, they primarily dislike the American (US) government and it's murderous behaviour.  If they resent anything about individual Americans it's probably the fact that so many of them fall prey to the tribalistic lunacy and defend policies and actions far more dangerous than those supposed 'justifications' for the US Mafia's military actions around the world.  Of course, most Germans and Frenchmen are just as willfully ignorant and misinformed about their own government's brutality towards it's own citizens.

U.S. Mafia's Military operations? Could you clarify that please? I think there may be some misunderstanding here, and I'm not sure if it's me or not. I don't get it what you trying to say.

[Vichy]

U.S. Mafia's Military operations?

That's what I call the Federal Government from time to time.  You know, call a spade a spade.