What if I said.......

[Death?]

Inevitable is Death, may the angel extract our souls ever so sweetly, approach us all in the easiest of ways, carrying that soul releasing scented rose from heaven.

God decides, God presides.

How can we then not realise that this time is appointed.

O how we decorate our lives comparable to that of a brief delay at a bus stop, why do we then not take every care in hanging expensive, pretty picture frames from the Perspex shelters of roadside structures, waiting for our method of travel like death and knowing that we are already travelling to another destination, how can we then think that when we die we switch off like when you switch off and disconnect the lifeline out of your computer.
If we turned black like a computer switches off then I wouldn’t be typing this message, you wouldn’t have been reading it, we would have been deep underground and whatever remained of our eyes would have been black, but God has appointed us a time.

God loved us, and has given everyone an opportunity to enter eternal bliss, as "the joys in this life are but an illusion" where when GOD ALMIGHTY WILL ANNOUNCE, TODAY I HAVE PUT DEATH TO DEATH ITSELF, AND NO MORE WILL ANYBODY DIE, REJOICE THE PEOPLE OF HEAVEN, AND CRIES WILL BE HEARD TO INCREASE FROM HELL.

I think if something fails or is extremely supressed to exist in an individuals mind, then that individuals actions are affected accordingly. Abit like hedonism. The intent of having God exist in your mind does notevade the fact that God does not exist and it also does not mean you will not die.

2things guaranteed once a life is born,

Death and taxes.

How many more allocations of a 'quarter of a century' do you really believe you have left...



This is a philosophical debate, Im not preaching. Just interested in some constructive feedback, any haters would increase in my resolve of this written piece being STRONG. Many thanks.

[ShimShamSam]

One of the most frustrating things for atheists when debating theists is they try to skew reason and logic with fancy vocabulary, obscure metaphors and twisted phrases instead of talking like a normal person. Because their messages are so vague and obscure it's hard to tell what their actual meaning is. It's like poetry:

"In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite."
-Paul Dirac

Speak clearly with fact and reason and with constructive arguments. People tend to take you more seriously around here if you can cut out the religious metaphors and bizarre passages. So...you're not an atheist? But you're willing to have a philosophical debate?

[Will]

"Any haters would increase my resolve". You'd be surprised how often people say (essentially) that to me before debating. "Your arguments are only going to convince me I'm more right." The only time that seems to happen is when they aren't listening.

Death is presided over by friends and family. They mourn your loss and celebrate your life. There are no souls to speak of, just tissue breaking down slowly, nourishing decomposers, and becoming rich soil that will some day nourish another organism (perhaps a rose). You do live on, in a sense, but not in any spiritual or physical way. You live on in the memories of those who know you and tell your tale. If you were a good person, or a great person, your tale will be told again and again. I guess you could see that as life after death as a reward for being a good person.

[Smarmy Of One]

It seems to me that if a person believes in an afterlife, then why do they bother with this one?

Atheists appreciate their life much more than worshippers in some twisted death cult because we know we only get one shot.

Frankly, the church continually telling you that you will find your reward in the afterlife is the ultimate "the check is in the mail" excuse.

"Just give us your money and your will and we'll pay you back when you're dead . . . yeah that's it."

Get over your death obsession and start enjoying the little time you have in this universe.  :roll:

[winterbottom]

There is something comforting (albeit completely artificial) about thinking life is a gift. But a benevolent, loving god--one that is one-dimensionally good and moral--wouldn't gift this particular life on his beloved children.

Would you feel more assured if you knew God has already turned your deceased loved ones into guacamole and is feeding them to his three headed iguana, turning them into guano for his ganja crop--all without ever losing their consciousness? He can't wait to get high on your misery. I kinda feel reassured by it.   :doubt:

[Death?]

Ok, shim sham sam, I personally always thought it was atheists that used fancy vocab in explaining the absence of God, and mores so in explaining the lack of evidence for this evolution 18th century "dogma".

I have an answer for any of your questions, and im not christian.

You just need to ask and then read my response with an open mind.
If you do chose to ask me questions regarding monotheism, please abstain from thinking that the revelation I refer to from, was only meant for this politically correct, human rights, 21st century, consumer, litigation, lack of moral, self destructive and hedonistic culture we seem to be embedded in. Also, as the topic is regarding a superior being, expect lengthy, 'root cause' type of answers, again, to be understood with an open mind, which should be applicable to anyone on earth.

Willrafel, you quote me as saying

"Any haters would increase my resolve". You'd be surprised how often people say (essentially) that to me before debating. "Your arguments are only going to convince me I'm more right." The only time that seems to happen is when they aren't listening.

But you know and i know, you took that out of context, what you forgot to add was that i was refferring to my written piece, not my belief, or acceptance in God, or winning this "debate". Please be fair on this?

"any haters would increase in my resolve of this written piece being STRONG. Many thanks."

You also said,

There are no souls to speak of, just tissue breaking down slowly, nourishing decomposers, and becoming rich soil that will some day nourish another organism (perhaps a rose).

I persume thats part of the evolution dogma thats most likely affecting your outlook on this single greatest matter on earth. Well if thats true,im not looking forward spending another life as a fossil, fossil fuel, or some form of vegitation. Maybe that should be included in the evolution textbooks, a kind of reverse evolution process, well i guess it beats a gazzillion years going through the process from start to end!

"You live on in the memories of those who know you and tell your tale"

What about the thosands killed ona daily basis who have no families or friends, orphans, the forgotten detainees, and war torn countrys where bodies are thrown into mass graves that arenteven discovered yet.

Swarmy of one, its not a twisted death cult, its the reality, and you cant deny that, nor can anyone else, im prepared, you aint by the looks of it. When it comes, i will be looking forward to the meeting with the Allmighty, so long as I believe in a logical and researchable way, that i genuinley meant to please him.

Finally, id like to say, a logical, openminded, peace loving, God submitting, and comprehensive universal way of life, might seem to you, as bleak, and a non fun way of life, but id rather pass my test in this life, and live an eternal life of pleasure in the next, rather than not know whats going to happen when i die. Thinking that we will simply decompose (without a soul) is the single most bleak thought on earth, coz you know your going to die

[Will]

But you know and i know, you took that out of context, what you forgot to add was that i was refferring to my written piece, not my belief, or acceptance in God, or winning this "debate". Please be fair on this?

Please reread your post. It has no narrative, no connecting ideas, and it reads like someone was picking sentences out of a hat. There was no context, so I had to guess as to what exactly you were trying to communicate. I suppose I guessed wrong?

I persume thats part of the evolution dogma thats most likely affecting your outlook on this single greatest matter on earth. Well if thats true,im not looking forward spending another life as a fossil, fossil fuel, or some form of vegitation. Maybe that should be included in the evolution textbooks, a kind of reverse evolution process, well i guess it beats a gazzillion years going through the process from start to end!

Oh, well I guess it wasn't out of context after all. In fact, it looks like I understand your post better than you do. You see, as soon as you say, "evolution dogma", you've already lost. Dogma is an established BELIEF used by a RELIGION. Evolution is an established theory based on verifiable, factual evidence. Not only that, but it cannot be a rigid belief because as soon as new, verifiable evidence is introduced, evolution changes and becomes better because it's more correct. Dogma is unchanging because it's based on ancient texts that also cannot be changed. Your misunderstanding of this basic fact means that you've already set yourself up to be unfair and biased. Never has a fundamentalist come onto HappyAtheistForum and paid any attention to what is posted. It's always "I already know what I know and you're all wrong" with fingers in ears.

What about the thosands killed ona daily basis who have no families or friends, orphans, the forgotten detainees, and war torn countrys where bodies are thrown into mass graves that arenteven discovered yet.

I never said it happened for everyone. It's simply a philosophical interpretation of an afterlife that's intellectually honest.

Swarmy of one, its not a twisted death cult, its the reality, and you cant deny that, nor can anyone else, im prepared, you aint by the looks of it. When it comes, i will be looking forward to the meeting with the Allmighty, so long as I believe in a logical and researchable way, that i genuinley meant to please him.

And we're back to the posting style of the OP. Words strung together that may be intended to communicate information but that are not arranged in a way where that's possible.

Finally, id like to say, a logical, openminded, peace loving, God submitting, and comprehensive universal way of life, might seem to you, as bleak, and a non fun way of life, but id rather pass my test in this life, and live an eternal life of pleasure in the next, rather than not know whats going to happen when i die. Thinking that we will simply decompose (without a soul) is the single most bleak thought on earth, coz you know your going to die

You've contradicted yourself. A logical, open minded philosophy would have nothing to d with submission to a mythological figure.

As for bleak, it's anything but. This is an excerpt from an email I sent to my step brother:
I find indescribable peace in thinking of everything I know in my life as stardust. Some day Sol will grow into a red giant and envelope the Earth, claiming back what was provided. The core of Sol will become a white dwarf and the remnants of what we're made of will slowly float out into space. Eventually, the matter finds it's way into a nebula which eventually starts spinning and condensing, heating up until it becomes a new star system. Who knows, maybe the new star system will support life and the cycle will continue on into eternity or the next big crunch.

Edit: And to add one more thing: simply because you believe a reality is more bleak than the one of the bible doesn't make it less true. The reality of the Care Bears is decidedly less bleak than the one that any Christian can dream up. Does that mean that Christianity is wrong and that Care Bears are right? Should you do that Care Bear Countdown on Sunday mornings?

[ShimShamSam]

Dear Death?

When a caterpillar on a road is smashed by an 18 wheeler...by each wheel, does the caterpillar's soul go up to heaven in your view? It's my understanding that they don't really have a soul. So when it dies it kinda just sits there and decomposes and fries on the pavement. Well, biologically speaking, we're made of pretty much the same thing, maybe more calcium because of the bones. Well if caterpillars don't have souls, than i think, neither do we, we're very similar on a biological level, we just fall apart in the ground instead of on the road.

But it has it's upsides, we can live this life, our only life, to the fullest because that's all there is. It's like your in high school, and instead of being out partying with your friends, you're taking hard classes and wasting all your time doing homework and extra curricular actives and spending all your time trying to get into that next place, college. Well life isn't like high school because there's nothing after it.

Now Death? here's my question back to you. See most of us atheists here are atheists because of a lack of truth, for the most part, and we'd all probably gladly convert if we were confronted with irrefutable proof of god. So my question to you is, is there any irrefutable proof, no matter how extreme, that could prove to you god didn't exist? Is there any conceivable proof that you can think of that would get you to not believe? I'm guessing not because you have your belief structure set up that nothing could change your mind because it requires so little proof in the first place. Anyone agree?

[Death?]

Willrafel, I apologise, the composing of a piece on my thoughts, isnt as structural and terminological as youd require, but hey, you get the point?

This evolution you talk of, it isnt a theory. Theories are made up of scientific factual evidence. Of which your "dogma" lacks.

"Dogma is unchanging because it's based on ancient texts that also cannot be changed"

You appear to have made my point, just refer to darwin at your local library for his rigid belief system, which is unfortunately, still actively used today.
 
In order to understand his views as a theory, you must certainly believe his 18th century "scientific" belief far supercedes the lack of scientific evidence we have today in regards to this matter.

You say "new verifiable evidence". Come on man.
Every bit of so called evidence, evolutionists seemed to have come across, became either apologised for, or found out/questioned regarding its authenticity. If you would like me to point you some real scientific and non distorted websites/articles regarding, please ask.

Anyhow, therefore I along with many many people class that as a dogma.

Finally, God isnt mythological. God has not been disproven. God is rather in fact, the missing link to all your doubts, unexplainability, and the answer/reason to what so many atheists find unexplainable.

The amount of times ive heard Sir Richard Attenborough use words such as "astoundingly", "for some unexplainable reason", "we dont know why these animals behave in this way", "amazingly", and just generally being dumbfounded on many aspects regarding something hes been studying for approx 50 yrs plus! If he added a real interpretation of God to the equation, he would have no doubts, or confusion.

I can see christianity has turned alot of members of this forum into harsher critics of God. If smething is missing in your lives, look in a comprehensive universal way of life, which has answers to each of your questions.

Finally, Shim sham sam,

I have difficulty understanding the initial part of your post.

Are you trying to say, the whole schooling system which every country has established is a waste of time/life? Have you not heard of the saying "Education, the roots are bitter, but the fruit is sweet"

If you had a test that was the most important in your life, that would either make or break you for the remainder of your life, would you be bothered about going partying before it, would you be really interested in taking brain cell killing intoxicants before it? No, you would be studying your socks off, so you know you will pass.

This life = Test
After Death = Result.

Finally, Your question has a few parts to it.

There is no proof whatsoever that God does not exist.
Reason, I look around me and see beauty. Beauty that isnt seen on any of the other planets seen by our powerful telescopes. I see creation that disputes we all came about by chance. I see the most delicate balance in every aspect of life, from earth being the most perfect distance from the sun, to spinning on a perfect axle in order for us to live. I see the cells with an enormous amount of harmony within the contents of them and the nucleus even more delicate. The building blocks of life. I see creatures with a brain the size of an grain of sand, working together in harmony and buiding inpressive dwellings and sustaining our needs such as honey, pollination etc, I see termite mounds, organised super organisms, a system and cycle of life, keeping numbers down, sustenence, organisation that we as humans would dream of among insects such as ants. Who gave them this wisdom. Trial and error for a being that lives a week? or God Allmighty.

My belief system does not require little proof, you have totally insulted and disrespected me.

I didnt believe for myself initially, after looking into certain subjects, I realised all of everything around us points to God.

Apologise for my delay in responses.

[ShimShamSam]

Good job Death? way to completely miss the point of my metaphor...and completely ignore my major question and instead go off on some rant about beauty and the earth.

First of all I was saying life isn't like high school where you spend your time working for what comes after it. But it was just a metaphor and it doesn't matter, moving on...

And for god's sake...don't say there is no proof whatsoever that god doesn't exist and use it as a valid argument. This is the oldest one in the book, and everytime a debate comes up, your side always uses it like clockwork. But for the sake of humoring you I'll offer the standard rebuttal, ah hem...there is also no proof that proves that the easter bunny, santa, the tooth fairy, big foot, lochness monster etc etc don't exist. Because there is nothing to disprove these, in your logic, you should believe in them too. But you don't, jsut god, The only difference between god and santa is kids grow out of believing in santa

And finally, I will ask again my question that you ignored. Most atheist here  don't believe in god because of a lack of physical indisputable truth, but I'm sure we'd convert if we saw some. Well the same goes for you, is there any conceivable proof, no matter how extreme, that you can comprehend that would disprove to you that god existed? Is there anything that you can think of? I'm guessing their isn't, but try and answer anyway. It's only logical, and we all have doubts, but in the end, shouldn't there some standard of proof that you would consider proof of no god?

[SteveS]

Hey Death?, I've got two comments.

You appear to have made my point, just refer to darwin at your local library for his rigid belief system, which is unfortunately, still actively used today.

In order to understand his views as a theory, you must certainly believe his 18th century "scientific" belief far supercedes the lack of scientific evidence we have today in regards to this matter.

You say "new verifiable evidence". Come on man.
Every bit of so called evidence, evolutionists seemed to have come across, became either apologised for, or found out/questioned regarding its authenticity. If you would like me to point you some real scientific and non distorted websites/articles regarding, please ask.

Anyhow, therefore I along with many many people class that as a dogma.

I find this idea very incorrect.  When Darwin came up with his theories, it seems he was motivated to a large extent by the progress of the geological sciences which had determined that the forms of mountains, valleys, sendimentation, etc. had build up slowly over long periods of time, and that the biblical explanation that the world was only 6,000 years old was false.  There was evidence driving this, not dogma.  With larger time frames to work with, the idea that life could have slowly "built up", changed, and diversified found a new acceptance as a possible explanation.  In fact, Darwin was hardly the only human being to entertain these thoughts.  He was, rather, the first to lay them out substantiated by detailed observations of the geographical distribution of species on planet earth.

Now, understand that Darwin did not have any evidence for the exact method of heredity: he didn't know about DNA.  All the new evidence, especially DNA evidence, backs up his theory rather than contradicts it.  To say that any "new" evidence about evolution is only "so called" and has to be apologized for is ridiculous to me!  Look at the rich scientific evidence for the common descent of life on earth: this is not apologetic information, this is cold, hard fact that complements and substantiates the theory.

A very good essay on the common descent of life on earth, with evidence to support the claim, can be found here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

The only dogma that I can see being applied to evolution is a unwillingness to accept the facts.  Things look designed, and evolution gives us the reason that they appear so.  You'd rather go with just believing that if something looks designed then it is designed.  "Come on man" isn't a very compelling argument.

My other point relates to this comment,

Finally, God isnt mythological. God has not been disproven. God is rather in fact, the missing link to all your doubts, unexplainability, and the answer/reason to what so many atheists find unexplainable.

I have two issues with this.  First, if not being disproven disqualifies something as mythological, then I'd say that we must accept that all sorts of things aren't actually mythological: unicorns (can you disprove their existence?), Zeus, Amun-Ra, etc.  None of these has been conclusively disproven: if you think so, please share with me your proof on why Zeus definitely can be said to not exist.

Second, I don't see God as an answer or explanation for anything.  Take the example you cite of animal behavior that is inexplicable: how does saying "God designed this animal to work this way" act as an explanation?  Why did God design this animal to work this way?  Implied answer: Nobody can know the mind of God.  How did God design this animal to work this way?  Implied answer: Nobody can know the methods of God.  Saying "God did it" is just another way of saying "nobody knows" (or so it seems to me).  In other words, God did it, but we don't know how, we don't know why.  How does this count as an explanation?  Saying "an unknowable being used unknown methods to perform an act for an unknown purpose" is hardly a satisfactory or compelling explanation to me.  If it is all so unknown, how can we know that God did it?

Tie my two points together and I think you'll understand why people accept the evolutionary explanation: we have exact details of how things change, why they change.  We have evidence of this taking place (gene duplication, for example).  We have vestigial remains of other animal's DNA in our own: why, if we weren't descended from a common ancestor?  To argue that God designed life, we would need positive evidence of God doing so:  what evidence do we have that shows how and when God designed an animal?  If God designed a chicken, what do we have that shows the chicken being designed and constructed by God?

[Will]

Willrafel, I apologise, the composing of a piece on my thoughts, isnt as structural and terminological as youd require, but hey, you get the point?

This evolution you talk of, it isnt a theory. Theories are made up of scientific factual evidence. Of which your "dogma" lacks.

You seem to have missed this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13845002/

In this story we have actually seen finches on galapagos evolve. The finch, over a few decades, saw a reduced its beak size to better equip itself to consume small-sized seeds as a result of natural selection that helped them adapt to the introduction of a new species which drove competition. This is scientific, factual, verifiable evidence. There has never been any question to this study's authenticity by anyone, including Creationist "scientists".

Finally, God isnt mythological. God has not been disproven. God is rather in fact, the missing link to all your doubts, unexplainability, and the answer/reason to what so many atheists find unexplainable.

... and then you don't name any of the evidence you elude to. This is, of course, because there cannot be verifiable, factual evidence for the supernatural. God is supernatural by nature, and the supernatural, by definition, cannot be proven scientifically.

The amount of times ive heard Sir Richard Attenborough use words such as "astoundingly", "for some unexplainable reason", "we dont know why these animals behave in this way", "amazingly", and just generally being dumbfounded on many aspects regarding something hes been studying for approx 50 yrs plus! If he added a real interpretation of God to the equation, he would have no doubts, or confusion.

It's unfortunate that you think because science doesn't have 100% of the answers, somehow god is what's left over. What you've failed to consider is that at one time the Catholic Church insisted that the Earth was flat and even imprisoned brilliant scientists who said otherwise because they believed them to be heretics. They insisted that god was the answer instead of scientific progress. They took on faith what Galileo wanted to explore with science and reason. Fortunately for all of us, Galileo finished his work and furthered our understanding, of the universe in an incredible way. We are not the center of the universe. We are not "favored by god" or any such nonsense, we're the result of astrophysics, geology, abiogenesis, evolution, and all the other amazing scientific explanations which have been demonstrated through verifiable evidence and which have withstood the rigors of the scientific methodâ€"something theology fails at miserably.

I can see christianity has turned alot of members of this forum into harsher critics of God. If smething is missing in your lives, look in a comprehensive universal way of life, which has answers to each of your questions.

Reason, logic, and liberty were missing from my life when I was under the control of the church. I am fortunate to have found my way out of the darkness of ignorance into the light of reason.

[Death?]

Ok, once again, I am not christian. I personally think christianity has been distorted greatly. But who am i to judge. I submit to the creator of the heavens and the earth, by means of living my way of life abiding by Gods direct words.

A book which has to be read and understood to be believed. A book which includes within its contents, information which mentions, and far supercedes all the sciences you mention in your post. A book which includes facts, details a comprehensive way of life, a book which has to be studied, and tried to be disproven.

God gives a challenge within it, to all who read his revelation, asking anybody to create verses like it.

A book which an illiterate man came out of the desert with, over 1400 years ago, yet includes facts just recently discovered such as the precise ratio between land and earth within it, contains the process of a foetus developing within its mothers womb, explains the layers of sea, and how mountains are used in regards to the soundness of continents.

So much more is contained within this book, which has not had one single fullstop changed since its revelation over 1400yrs ago.

I was initially hesitant to mention, without stating the obvious reasons for in this media age, but i am a muslim.

Shim,  There is not any proof whatsoever that God does not exist. Absolutely non whatsoever.

There is nothing but proof of the existence of God. I clearly stated my reasons in my earlier post, and thats not an absolute list, theres a list that is longer than all the words you have spoken sice being breastfed*

Your actual being is proof of God to me. Your mind and discussion with me is proof of your Creator.

Let me give yall an example.

Imagine if you were God, of what we know of him,
(Not Jesus pbuh, or Jehova or any of the other forms you may be thinkin of)

Now, put yoursel in these boots, whereby you are the allmighty, you can do anything.

You decide to create.
You create the universe.
(something out of nothing, matter out of none matter, (fact), ie the big bang which is ever expanding)
You create all forms of life including mankind.
You decide that I have created man, and i am going to end his life after a short while.

You want, man to recognise you, after all you did create him and sustain him. So you want man to recognise without showing yourself to him. You do this as a test. The life forms and creation all around man you have created is proof of your existence. Well it should be? Shouldnt it?

Thats the briefest way I can explain God.

If you still fail to believe, we all surely return to him, and then are asked, did you not recognise me?

[Will]

Ok, once again, I am not christian.

You are a theist. You are a deist. You are a monotheist. You're fundamentalist. You're anti-evolutionist.

You might as well be Christian.

Your actual being is proof of God to me. Your mind and discussion with me is proof of your Creator.

Definition of proof.
Please read that definition carefully.

[ShimShamSam]

Ugh, can someone help me out here, I keep repeating my point but Death? keeps failing to grasp it. Can someone else say they understand so I know I'm not talking total nonsense.

I will try one last time. I'm an atheist, mainly because of a general lack of evidence that points directly and indisputably to god. However if I was confronted by such proof I would gladly convert. Some proof would be like god making an appearance to thousands of people in the middle of a football game or what not, and then demonstrating his almighty power to remove all doubt it was a trick, maybe creating adam and ever again on the 50 yard line. This is an example of hypothetical proof that if I saw, I would convert, no matter how unlikely I believe it will happen.

I am an atheist due to lack of proof of god, you are a theist due to a lack of  proof to disprove his existence. But I have given a hypothetical example as to what would change my mind and cause me to convert. Can you Death? think of any hypothetical proof, that if you were confronted with, would cause you to convert to atheism. I know there is no proof to date that he doesn't exist, but is there any hypothetical proof that you can think of that you would accept as proof against him?

I'm guessing there isn't because the belief in god requires so little proof. Can someone else please respond to this and tell me if I'm making a valid point? If not I'll shut up.