Suicide - is it an act of selfishness?

[Mister Joy]

This topic got put to my attention again, recently, here on these Christian boards:

http://www.liveonfire.net/community/index.php?topic=882.0

I've had this discussion with many others before that and I'm curious to hear a purely atheistic perspective to see if it holds any differing trends. If you read the above link you'll get an idea of where I'm coming from.

[tacoma_kyle]

Selfish vs not selfish?

Religion will tend to say selfish. Thats not surprising. They say it is defying god or whatever, as you know.

I say not at all. Yeah if you do your family very well may be torn apart. Maybe not so bad if you left a pleasant goodbye letter. But who is getting hit any more than the person committing?

I dont even want to know what would have to happen to motivate me to... Jeese...It would probably take a damn lot cause I know I wont live again.

[pjkeeley]

I can see why people would argue that suicide is a selfish act. However, I also feel that fundamentally everyone has the right not to live, if that is their wish.

So, to summarise my position:
- I think it would be selfish to commit suicide without the consent of loved ones.
- I think it would be selfish for someone's loved ones not to consent to their suicide, if the circumstances pointed to suicide being their only relief in sight.

I should add that the second point refers more to voluntary euthanasia rather than the type of suicide that is most often the result of severe depression or other forms of mental illness. Very few happy, rational people seem to commit suicide (though if such a situation did arise I suppose I would not view it as a selfish act).

[Mister Joy]

PJ: I absolutely agree on the euthanasia front, though I still find it a slippery issue, partly because it could raise the problem of mental illness, again. eg. if someone has in incurable cancer, can't cope & wants euthanasia, where would we draw the line on rational/irrational if this person also has some minor mental condition? Or even if he doesn't? We'd need psychologists and so on to establish this before hand, I would assume, as with criminal cases when the defendant pleads insanity. I think that's one of the more simplistic reasons why euthinasia is illegal in most countries: it would be incredibly costly and difficult to implement.

Kyle: agree, again. Also, this is what I've noticed: Christians do tend to label it as 'selfish' and 'sinful' - as you say - until someone they love goes ahead and does it, at which point they'll often change their tone and start re-assembling their memorised collection of cherry picked bible versus to account for this. Most of the Christians I've spoken to who've been close to a suicidal are much more forgiving about it than those who haven't. It's a particularly bitter example of how their moral code is not as unchangeable as they'd like to think.

[jaymayo]

It's hard to say whether suicide is good or not. It's verity lies on its utility.

Suicide is ethical when one's physical conditions makes it unbearable to live that the very of essence of continuing to live is inhumane to the person suffering.

Suicide is unethical when the decision to do so is not based on any rational grounding. A person who decides to commit suicide since his girlfriend left him is unethical since ultimately life can still be bearable.

When you look at the two examples above we can rule out that one is based on reason while the other on emotion. Emotions are real and raw and they do hurt. But emotions can be tempered and can be weened.

We could also base our ethics on suicide on Kant's categorical imperative where a said statement is considered ethical when it is posited to universal law. To quote...

A man reduced to despair by a series of misfortunes feels sick of life, but is still so far in possession of his reason that he can ask himself whether taking his own life would not be contrary to his duty to himself. Now he asks the maxim of his action could become a universal law of nature. But his maxim is this: from self-love I make as my principle to shorten my life when its continued duration threatens more evil than it promises satisfaction. There only remains the question as to whether this principle founded on self-love can become a universal law of nature. One sees at once that a contradiction in a system of nature whose law would destroy life by means of the very same feeling that acts so as to stimulate the furtherance of life, and hence there could be no existence as a system of nature. Therefore, such a maxim cannot possibly hold as a universal law of nature and is, consequently, wholly opposed to the supreme principle of all duty.

â€" Immanuel Kant, Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals, p30-3

[LARA]

This is probably a question I shouldn't touch but since we are all adults here with our heads on straight I'm going for it honestly.

I don't think suicide has a thing to do with selfishness, but is a reaction to chronic mental and physical pain and the hopelessness of it ending.  As far as whether I think it's unethical, I don't, except in the case where a person has children to provide for. In other cases, well, it should be a person's choice.  In our society, of course, anyone trying to do this will be shuttled into the mental health system and be given a label and a prescription, because being sick of life isn't considered a good enough reason to free yourself of yourself by the legal system.  Noncompliance with this system will result in even worse situations than could have ever been imagined before by the attempter.  So regardless of ethics, suicide attempts are illegal anyway, even if not in the traditional sense of the word.

I think a person attempting suicide does have a responsibility to themselves to do a good job of it, because they can really mess themselves up permanently with a botched job.  This in itself is a very good argument against suicide.  Our bodies are a lot tougher than we think and can take some real insults before we actually die.  Killing yourself is pretty hard to accomplish and then if you mess up, someone has to feel the need to try and help you out of it, because well, maybe if they didn't, it'd seem like a good idea to them, too.  And, well, if you mess up, you're back to the whole mental health system business and the labels and prescriptions and the self help groups and the mouthed falseness that feels kind of like, well, church.

Now I know I think that suicide is a person's choice and I can logically and cynically write this all down, but if I look at it again, well, if I hear about a suicide it makes me sad, I feel for the person who went, I wish their lives had been richer in the way that they needed so they could have continued.  And I've talked to lots of people online trying to get them to understand that suicide isn't the only choice, that you can fight smarter not harder against the ills of society, and there really are other options.  And this really is how I feel.

But, I also believe there are certain types of violent people who should ethically kill themselves, like chronic pedophiles, rapists and murderers.  Maybe some bad people can be redeemed, but if you're one of these types, good riddance to you and that's one less driver on the road spitting out carbon emissions and funding the oil mongers of the Middle East.

[freeverse]

For me, the bottom line on suicide is this: when a human being is in a truly suicidal mind-frame, their brain is altered to the extent that they are unable to make a decision that can result in an honest categorization of ethical or selfish actions. When someone is suicidal, they honestly believe (whether or not this is true) that the world, and their loved ones, will be better off without them. It is not about them finding the strength or courage to move on, the chemical/neurological functions of their brain have compromised  to the extent that they are no longer capable of making rational decisions.

While I say this, please keep in mind that I am NOT referring to people with chronic illness or the elderly who have no hope of a life without pain. In that case, I absolutely believe in an individuals right to choose death over life. If the family cannot accept that, it is a result of their selfishness, not the selfishness of the individual  considering suicide.

So my conclusion about those young, physically (with the exception of mental capacity) healthy individuals who turn to suicide is that they have exhausted every possible alternative they are aware of. It is heartbreaking that they have no other resources, and  did not feel that they had anyone to turn to. But this reality does not make them selfish.

[SteveS]

What about the negative reaction that relatives of 9/11 victims had to their loved ones jumping out of the trade towers?  Some were very upset at the idea that these people had committed suicide.  Seems to me they were going to die anyway --- either stay and slowly suffocate/burn to death, or take the long fall.  Why not let your last action be one of will?  Choose to fall?  I can't for the life of me criticize any of these people or think less of them.  Personally, I admire their bravery.  They knew the game was up and chose their final action as the last thing they could do of their own will.  Good on 'em, I say.

[filip3rd]

What about the negative reaction that relatives of 9/11 victims had to their loved ones jumping out of the trade towers?  Some were very upset at the idea that these people had committed suicide.  Seems to me they were going to die anyway --- either stay and slowly suffocate/burn to death, or take the long fall.  Why not let your last action be one of will?  Choose to fall?  I can't for the life of me criticize any of these people or think less of them.  Personally, I admire their bravery.  They knew the game was up and chose their final action as the last thing they could do of their own will.  Good on 'em, I say.

Now here is my question:

The people who jump out o the tower on 9/11 and committed suicide are they going to go to hell because they killed them self or God is going to exempt them?

[Whitney]

Any choice to commit suicide is going to be selfish because there should only be selfish reasons for deciding to commit suicide.  Being selfish, however, is not necessarily bad.  It would be unselfish to decide not to commit suicide because you have kids and loved ones who would suffer from your being gone.  It would possibly be a bad form of selfishness if you decide to commit suicide knowing others would have to suffer as a result of your being gone.

The only form of suicide that I would not call selfish is Martyrs who do not believe they will get some supernatural reward for being a Martyr.

The typical suicidal person (those suffering from mental issues) are likely not in a state of mind where they are able to consider the impact of their suicide on others or the various other factors someone serious about suicide ought to contemplate.  I think we should protect these people from themselves and try to bring them into a better mental state.

Those wishing to commit suicide for chronic health reasons, should be allowed the opportunity to legally discuss and carry out suicide under the supervision or with the aid of professionals.  Their mental state can be evaluated, that's what they do in Oregon and it seems to be working.

I do not think any form of suicide (well, other than suicide bombing and more complicated situations involving young kids) that could be considered always immoral.  Even if the decision is inherently selfish, selfishness is not immoral nor necessarily bad.

[SteveS]

The people who jump out o the tower on 9/11 and committed suicide are they going to go to hell because they killed them self or God is going to exempt them?

Bingo - that is exactly what was bothering the relatives of the people who jumped - they were very unwilling to believe theirloved ones had deliberately jumped.  Some even went so far as to say "he was very religious and would never have committed suicide".

Even if the decision is inherently selfish, selfishness is not immoral nor necessarily bad.

Well put.  I certainly agree with this sentiment.

[Steve Reason]

The people who jump out o the tower on 9/11 and committed suicide are they going to go to hell because they killed them self or God is going to exempt them?

Bingo - that is exactly what was bothering the relatives of the people who jumped - they were very unwilling to believe theirloved ones had deliberately jumped.  Some even went so far as to say "he was very religious and would never have committed suicide".

Even if the decision is inherently selfish, selfishness is not immoral nor necessarily bad.

Well put.  I certainly agree with this sentiment.

Well, those people on 9/11 were murdered. I'm not even sure that you could call that suicide in a technical sense. What choice did they have? Stay and burn, or jump.

I think suicide is nothing more than an extreme reaction to circumstances. A person doesn't see a way to overcome their circumstances, so they take the logical step (in their minds) of killing themselves.

I don't think the question should be about selfishness, but about why are people not able to find another answer besides suicide, and what is it about our species that sees that as an option? No other species does that.

I was suicidal 10 years ago or so. In my case I wasn't actively thinking of ways to kill myself, but I had lost interest in living, and didn't see anyway, or any reason to try. I think if I had stayed in that mindset much longer, I would have killed myself. I think many folks are that way. I think most don't make a conscious decision as such, they just get into a certain mindset of losing hope until they get to the point were suicide becomes the answer.

Just my opinion; I know it doesn't apply to every suicide.

[pjkeeley]

Suicide is ethical when one's physical conditions makes it unbearable to live that the very of essence of continuing to live is inhumane to the person suffering.

Suicide is unethical when the decision to do so is not based on any rational grounding. A person who decides to commit suicide since his girlfriend left him is unethical since ultimately life can still be bearable.

I do agree with the thrust of your post jaymayo but I have a problem with the idea of judging other people's circumstances and deciding what is 'bearable' or not. The notion that we should even required to live simply because life is bearable is also one that doesn't sit well with me. I want to live a life that I can fully enjoy, not just one that is bearable.

[Reasoner]

After several decades of working in the psychiatric field and having experienced a loss due to suicide, I have to agree with those who have stated here that selfishness per se is beside the point in most cases of suicide.

It is nearly always the case that the suicidal person's mind is leading them down an irrational path due to a number of factors. It is also nearly always the case that if someone (or group of someones) who surmise the deep trouble a person considering suicide is in help to steer the person away from making this irrevocable decision for a time, the potential for things to improve shows itself. Whether that potential becomes manifest through formal treatment, improvement in life circumstances or a combination of the two, what tends to become clear is that a suicidal person was suffering rather than responding to character flaws or weakness.

[Sophie]

I looked at that Christian forum and wanted to quote one of the worst:
"No, DKC I disaggree. Mental torment is horrible (not that I have suffered it personally,) but Jesus Christ heals so many people mentally and emotionally it's amazing..."  Oh really?  The "so many people" are undoubtedly members of his church.  I've met hundreds of people who prayed fervently to Jesus to deliver them from their mental illness.  I did the same, myself, for at least ten years.  The only help came through medications and professional therapy.  I used to rationalize the lack of response to my prayers with "God works through the people in our lives..."  Ugh.  The mental game of Twister which people play to justify God being merciful and loving is both complex and painful.

I made the key point bold in the above quotation.  One who has never experienced mental torment is an idiot to think they can even attempt to explain how selfish and hell-deserving suicide is.  I don't call people names on principle, but this is a subject I'm obviously passionate about.  I shared about some of my personal stuff on another thread, so I won't elaborate much more.  Let me just make it clear to anyone interested: someone who is seriously suicidal (not the semi-serious thoughts) has sunk so far into despair that they aren't capable of much clear thought of others.  Deeper than, "I just can't go on like this," true suicidal ideation is more along the lines of needing to be released from life.  In such an ill mind, quitting life is the only available option.

I appreciate the others here that defend against the "selfish" accusation.  Of course there may be cases where people just want to hurt others, or some bizarre and selfish reasons.  The vast majority, in my experience, are people who truly believe that they want to stop living.  The idea of whether or not life is "bearable" doesn't even touch the true state of mind.  If "bearable" to you is a life where you can breathe in and out, occasionally obey the body's demand for water, and get out of bed to use the toilet, we have a starting place.  
 
My attempts were in spite of a paralyzing fear of going to hell, and had a tiny whisper of yet MORE painful regret at possibly hurting loved ones.  I then rationalized it by thinking they'd be better off - I was such a burden and darkness in their lives.  

I have to add the fact that I stopped believing in God during my last hospitalization, and have never been happier or healthier.

I dislike the fact that my response to insensitive people like the one on that Christian Forum (not here) is to channel my anger into bitter words, embracing the sick pride one has about how ill they truly are or were.  But there it is.  In my relatively new experience of atheism and free thought, I am able to transcend that sick, victim mindset.  Rational thought is powerful.