Aiding and abetting suicide

[pjkeeley]

For those who weren't aware, Australia has banned websites and chatrooms that are found to encourage suicide, including sites which describe how to commit suicide and certain user-based support sites. There is now talk of having the same measures introduced in Britain apparently.

Personally, I'm somewhat divided on the issue. It's a significant reduction of our free speech, yet it might save lives. According to proponents, suicidal people will be less likely to come across anything that might push them over the edge. On the other hand, some suicide counselling services claim that this is a bad move, and that it would be more far more useful for search engines to direct people who enter phrases like "I want to kill myself" to support sites. They claim that by banning certain types of website, suicidal people will simply be more drawn to those types of website and more actively seek them out.

Overall I find that I'm against the move. Free speech is too important to me. Ultimately the suicidal person is responsible for their own life, though I fully realise that a depressed person does not often think or act rationally. It is therefore up to the commuity at large and most importantly those living with a depressed person to identify the problem and seek help if they suspect that person is potentially suicidal. I am aware that I am massively simplifying that task and I am hugely sympathetic to anyone who has been in that position. I am behind them 100% and I believe they do far more than censorship can ever do. Censorship is a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line? Especially when you consider the huge influence and content of music that could be thought to encourage suicide. And in literature, for example.

Surely too it would be just as prudent to encourage internet service providers and hosts to monitor the content of their sites, as it would be in their interest not to receive bad publicity? But perhaps I am simplifying the matter. What are people's thoughts?

[moosegoose]

If you want to kill yourself, you really need help. And someone should provide that help. In that condition person isn't really able to make decisions concerning their life.

But banning websites by government is censorship and western democracy censorship is supposed to be forbidden. Why ? Because it is not under public control.

An example: If a book is banned, nobody cannot really tell were the reason to ban it reasonable. If a book is published, anyone could sue the publisher or writer and case would be under public discussion.

Censorship means control behind people's back.
No censorship means people's control.

Aiding for suicide is another issue. If person (sick or dying) can do the action by himself, he should get helped by anyone.
But there's those who are unable to do anything but who really want to die, I guess only solution would be somekind of neutral boardroom of specialists who can do the thing.
Otherwise there would be a lots of murder candidates taking advance of situation.

There have been cases where nurses or doctors has been aiding patients to die, in many cases in bona fide, but accidently killed also those who did not want to die (or we don't know what they wanted).

In Finland we have one trial ongoing where a couple of nurses have killed several patients in older folk's hospital. I don't know their motives but at least one of their victims were selected by accident.

[bitter_sweet_symphony]

I don't think banning web-sites will do any good for three reasons.

1) Successfully banning a web-site is impossible. There are many ways to circumvent the ban, using proxies. It is a waste of time and efforts on the part of the government.

2) Most unfortunately, banning web-sites will not discourage people from committing suicide. There are many ways to commit suicide that don't need any elaborations.
    I am unsure if reading about techniques to commit suicide, pushes a person over the edge.

3) I hate the thought of the government banning anything. Who draws the line and where? Of course, I believe that supporting people in committing suicide is wrong, but what about people who feel that the homosexual support groups are evil and should be banned? If you ban one site, why not the other.

I haven't come across any site that exactly "encourage" people to commit suicide. They elaborate ways to have a painless suicide. It may or may not be different from actively encouraging people to commit suicide.

<B>But</B>, I am totally disgusted at people who own such sites. The community should support those who feel suicidal and definitely not upload content on how to commit suicide. The positive thing that the government can and should do is to create sites with a positive message for the people who are going through depression.

[Mister Joy]

I'm only going to repeat what has already been said really. The nature of the internet is one that surpasses national law and as such it's impossible for one government, or even a group of governments, to really stop anything (as demonstrated by illegal download websites and child pornography). Also, I think moosegoose expressed this point more lucidly than I could:

Censorship means control behind people's back.

Definitely agree there. I'm not entirely sure that I agree with bitter_sweet_symphony on this, though:

But, I am totally disgusted at people who own such sites. The community should support those who feel suicidal and definitely not upload content on how to commit suicide. The positive thing that the government can and should do is to create sites with a positive message for the people who are going through depression.

It's an extremely difficult subject for me to get my head around. I don't think it's possible to understand the mindset of someone who would seek advice from a website like that, but if they feel that being told how to kill themselves is the support that they need then we can only guess that they're in a lot of pain and have already established death, in their minds, as the only solution. I agree that as much positive support as possible should be given but if they're that determined to end their lives then who are we to say they're wrong?

[bitter_sweet_symphony]

I agree that as much positive support as possible should be given but if they're that determined to end their lives then who are we to say they're wrong?
   

I didn't say it is wrong(in a moral sense) to feel suicidal or to commit suicide, it's wrong to tell a suicidal person to jump off the fifteenth floor, instead of trying to help him/her.

A suicidal person is not necessarily under a lot of pain. There are medications which cause suicidal tendencies. Also, a person suffering from any psychiatric problem isn't capable, at that moment, of deciding if they want to live or not.

[SteveS]

I guess this could be a touchy topic.  I also suppose I've never really seriously considered killing myself.  I've thought about it, sure.  But honestly,  who can say they never have?  I always liked this particular aphorism by Nietzsche:

The thought of suicide is a powerful comfort: it helps one through many a dreadful night.

Indeed!  :wink:  

Anyway, about the topic, I think banning websites is a poor idea.  I have no reasonable explanation for why anybody would create a website that encourages people to kill themselves (you'd think they'd be afraid of getting sued by distraught relatives in our litigious everything-is-someone-else's-fault society).  But, I have an even less reasonable explanation for why anyone would kill themselves because someone else encouraged them to.  :?  

The tough part on this one, for me, is that I think people own their own lives.  If they want to die I say that's their decision.

Having said that, I certainly agree that this action is not always ethical or responsible.  Killing myself while I'm caring for young children that are dependent upon me, that I brought to life through my own actions, would be shockingly irresponsible.

And I agree that if a person is suffering from a mental disorder then they might not be making the best decision.  But - how can I tell?  Especially if we consider "suicidal" to be equivalent to "mentally ill" (which seems to be the case).

[Mister Joy]

A suicidal person is not necessarily under a lot of pain. There are medications which cause suicidal tendencies. Also, a person suffering from any psychiatric problem isn't capable, at that moment, of deciding if they want to live or not.

And I agree that if a person is suffering from a mental disorder then they might not be making the best decision. But - how can I tell? Especially if we consider "suicidal" to be equivalent to "mentally ill" (which seems to be the case).

I think it's difficult to distinguish between 'depression', as a mental illness, and depression as a natural human state of mind. By that I mean, if someone has lost their job, family and friends within the space of a week, say, then you could hardly call them 'mentally ill' for being depressed or even suicidal... unless you work for the Church of Scientology or worse, a psychiatric drugs company, in which case anything other than abject happiness and tranquillity in all situations warrants immediate treatment. :roll: Depression as a mental illness comes with symptoms of delusion (hence severe manic depressives are often misdiagnosed as schizophrenics).

I've known a fair few clinically depressed individuals, most of them from my own family, including my mother and sister. My sister is far worse and with the added problem of sever hypochondria, trying to reason with her when she's in a bad state - to put it in the context of this forum - is similar to reasoning with a fundamentalist, though infinitely more unsettling. The only difference is that rather than believing the Earth is 6000 years old and an all-loving, all-powerful entity is holding her hand, she'll believe that she has a brain tumour and that she's going to die horribly unless she commits suicide. She'll even use some very similar arguments to back up her case/s. Now, I know she can recover when she's in a bad state because I've seen it time and again and over the past couple of years she's been doing far better. There's a good chance of recovery and so I'll keep her from executing those ideas of hers at all costs because even if she can't see what's going on, I can. If, however, her state had been progressively getting worse I honestly don't know if I'd hold the same attitude. These delusions, even though that's what they are, do cause their subjects an incredible amount of anguish - this is plainly visible - to the point where they forget the association of words with their meanings, objects with their names, they can often barely talk, move, eat, sleep or breathe. If there's no way out for them, or if it's only going to get worse, then perhaps death is the only thing that can bring them piece.

[Steve Reason]

If I was going to off myself, the availability of website, be it pro or con, wouldn't make a bit of difference. If I wanted to live, I'd find help somehow.

Several years ago when I was still a Christian and was asking all the "why" questions, I was quite suicidal. I had given up, and was quite prepared to move on, but I snapped out of it. I'm not saying a helpline type of site isn't good for people, or that sites showing ways to kill yourself are not in bad taste, I'm just saying that if someone is going to kill themselves or has decided to live, no power on earth will change their minds either way.

Which is my way of saying I'm against censorship of any kind, short of publishing nuclear secrets and such.

[tacoma_kyle]

Word Steve.

Bottom line is if you really want to kill yourself there are easy as hell ways. Bridges, cliffs, highways, hanging, electrocution, drowning, pistols, knives and the list goes on. Half of them require nothin but legs to walk.

When you are 100% dead set and had enough, your ganna do what you can to end your life. You wont worry about society or much else.

If my assumption is correct that I made prior (which of course if it even is---certainly not 100%)---suicide assistance sites maybe be helpful as it gives them something a little off of the depression on their mind. Maybe---no? Tryin to sound deep...

[cantthinkofaname]

I have a 14 yr old niece who is bipolar, paranoid schizophrenic and has OCD.  Many times she has attempted and threatened to commit suicide.  Should she come across a site that teaches/aides her to commit suicide I would sue the owners of the site and try to make them held responsible, if possible have manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter charges against the owners of the site and anyone who posted ideas to commit suicide.

Suicide is not the answer for everyone and having such suicide assisted ideas or what ever on an open public forum is a loaded gun in the hands of the innocent, mentally ill, underaged, curious and just plain stupid.  It's not just the suicidal victim who is affected by this the family members suffer too when a person takes their own life.  Those who have survived their attempts to commit suicide all say at the last minute they struggled to survive and after receiving treatments, medication and therapy they no longer chose death as a way out.  I doubt most even really want to die they just want the pain / hurting that could be physical, mental, emotional or delusional, to stop, they want to make it go away.  I would much rather a person get help first then see if they still insist on committing suicide.  I realize it is very difficult to see any signs for us to know when a person is secretly planning their suicide but to get a person going on a public website looking for ways to commit suicide is a perfect opportunity to reach that person and give him/her the help they desperately need before it's too late.

I do believe in assisted suicide for the extreme cases only under strict legislative laws/guidelines passed.   I think it's very important for people to have a written living will in case an accident or illness/disease should make that person an extreme case.  It is much better for the family members as well as humane for the person who would need the suicidal assistance.  I'm not normally for censorship but I draw the line with this.  As I previously said suicide should be legislated, monitored.  I also think all other means to save that person should be attempted first, they need to be helped first and if they fall in the right guidelines then and only then if it is humanely done, as with animals, I say it should be considered then.    Sometimes censorship is necessary especially when it comes to the stupidity and selfishness of maniacs who run suicidal sites/forums.   What's wrong with having a site that says if you are considering suicide you can talk to me or someone with complete anonymity instead of here's how you can do it.   WTF is wrong with people.

[Sophie]

I agree with cantthinkofaname.  A mentally healthy person feeling "depressed" can think about suicide as an escape coping mechanism, which I've done in the past, but that's not true suicidal ideation.  Although it's a slim line, I personally would separate suicide from medically assisted suicide.  The second is generally viewed as a compassionate release from painful terminal illness.  This is wayyy personal, but I feel strongly about it, so I'll share.  Before I was on the proper medications, I attempted suicide.  I was found and hospitalized.  When you're in that level of despair, you're not thinking about how much you'll hurt your family or how selfish it appears to others.  All you can think (in my experience) is that you just can't do it anymore.  You can't bear to live anymore.  It's hard to express it strongly enough.  This isn't immature teenage angst (which is not taken seriously either, and can end in tragedy as everyone knows) - I was an adult.  Everyone knows you can jump off a bridge, etc, etc, but when you really want to die, you want to know the quickest, least painful way.  You also know that something public may get you caught before you can complete the act.  When you aren't calling out for help and really want to end your life, you don't want any attention.  When I was in that state of mind, I did look online.  I had attempted once before and I learned that pills alone usually don't work - takes too long, risk of being found, vomiting often gets triggered, etc.  I knew I'd arouse suspicion if I left the house in that state, and didn't have the mental energy to act cool and find a good excuse.  I was limited to what I could do in my bathroom.  When you've had a lot of physical pain, you really don't want to do things to yourself that will hurt a lot.  There are many exceptions to this as well... I hate to go into so much detail.  I guess I just want to get across the point that the internet did give me some good information, which moved me from really wanting to die, to feeling a little relief at knowing how you want to do it.  Having a plan.

I agree that censorship is bad.  I just hate the fact that websites are so readily available that show how to kill yourself most effectively.  When you want to die, these are encouraging and motivate an exhausted mind to act.  As said elsewhere, when someone who is suicidal gets treatment, they are able to know that life is worth living.  I love my life now - life is always hard, but I know how to deal and when to ask for medical help before I slip too far down.  I'm very grateful that I was not successful in ending my life.