Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[Stevil]

"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

So here God has made a promise, and told people not to worry about food.
Nowhere is a binding agreement from humanity with regards to the food distribution.
The parties of this statement are Jesus/God - promising food.
and the seeker of the kingdom of God. - the receiver of food.
The distributor is not part of this agreement and hence is not contractually bound with regards to this "promise"

The supplier "god" has not listed any dependancies, no out clause with regards to his commitment towards the person whom lives up to their end of the bargin, e.g. seeks the kingdom of God.

I would say the seeker of the kingdom of God would have a strong agreivance case against god, for they lived upto their part of the bargain but god failed to follow through with his obligation.

It gets worse for god, knowing the future, because even if the god did somehow tie humanity into the obligation for food distribution, the god already knew this would fail, hence knowing the distributors would fail, how can the god make the promise " and all these things shall be added to you." knowing that the food would not be delivered and that the people taking up on the advise to not worry about food but instead seek the kingdom of god, would die because rather than trying to sort out how to get food, they instead spent their time reading, re-reading, interpreting and studying the bible.

A more intelligent and honest and realistic god, would advise people to look after themselves, to first and foremost cater to their own basic survival needs. This god would advise them that food distribution is a critical challenge and that humanity cannot be relied upon to ensure food is distributed to all whom needs it.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Of course, in some areas, all efforts at distribution are thwarted by adverse political forces (North Korea)

Isn't at least a big chunk of that problem in that them would-be-do-gooders are trying to set conditions for helping?

Perhaps that is true in some cases. Did you have something specific in mind?  If a Christian group says "I'll feed you, but first you have to convert," then that group has become part of the problem.  The "feeding of the 5,000" paradigm in the Gospels doesn't put any conditions on those who were given bread and fish.

[Asmodean]

I was refering to the "Launch that and you won't get my food" kind of attitudes of certain governments rather than some stand-alone charity groups.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

So here God has made a promise, and told people not to worry about food.
Nowhere is a binding agreement from humanity with regards to the food distribution.
The parties of this statement are Jesus/God - promising food.
and the seeker of the kingdom of God. - the receiver of food.
The distributor is not part of this agreement and hence is not contractually bound with regards to this "promise"

The supplier "god" has not listed any dependancies, no out clause with regards to his commitment towards the person whom lives up to their end of the bargin, e.g. seeks the kingdom of God.

I would say the seeker of the kingdom of God would have a strong agreivance case against god, for they lived upto their part of the bargain but god failed to follow through with his obligation.

It gets worse for god, knowing the future, because even if the god did somehow tie humanity into the obligation for food distribution, the god already knew this would fail, hence knowing the distributors would fail, how can the god make the promise " and all these things shall be added to you." knowing that the food would not be delivered and that the people taking up on the advise to not worry about food but instead seek the kingdom of god, would die because rather than trying to sort out how to get food, they instead spent their time reading, re-reading, interpreting and studying the bible.

This particular promise is toward those who "seek first the kingdom of God."  I take this to mean those who make their relationship with God a priority.  The promise is not to humanity as a whole, although God has provided (IMHO) for humanity.  My point about distribution is simply that you can't blame God if we don't do our part.  If a Christian is seeking the kingdom of God, he/she should be concerned about the less fortunate.  If all Christians did this, there would be no starvation in the world.  There are 2,000,000,000 of us, and a large portion of those come from prosperous countries.  If we were all distributing the loaves and fishes, not only would no "kingdom seeker" starve - nobody would.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I was refering to the "Launch that and you won't get my food" kind of attitudes of certain governments rather than some stand-alone charity groups.

Well, the attitudes of civil governments are really a separate issue from Christian charity.  Feeding the hungry should be unconditional, irrespective of political/religious/social issues.

[Asmodean]

Well, when it comes to the US government, apparently, you can't even become president without at least an appearance of being a "good christian"

[Stevil]

This particular promise is toward those who "seek first the kingdom of God."  I take this to mean those who make their relationship with God a priority.  The promise is not to humanity as a whole, although God has provided (IMHO) for humanity.  My point about distribution is simply that you can't blame God if we don't do our part.  If a Christian is seeking the kingdom of God, he/she should be concerned about the less fortunate.  If all Christians did this, there would be no starvation in the world.  There are 2,000,000,000 of us, and a large portion of those come from prosperous countries.  If we were all distributing the loaves and fishes, not only would no "kingdom seeker" starve - nobody would.

So lets not blur the lines by mixing up scenarios and points.

The intent is not to blame god.

The intent is to understand if a promise has been made and if the promise maker is fulfilling on that promise.
"This particular promise is toward those who "seek first the kingdom of God."  I take this to mean those who make their relationship with God a priority."
So here we go, there is an issue with regards to defining if something is priority.
Lets say that if a person seeks first and foremost to know god, to seek the kingdom of god, to try and understand the bible then they are prioritising on this search.
Lets say they live in an impoverished country, Ethiopia maybe.
While their neighbor goes to a well and brings back water, or goes hunting for food, this person instead sits at home reading, and trying to understand the bible.

Who is it that is more like to have food and water? The bible reader of the hunter/gatherer?

If your faith is strong Bruce, I would expect you to say the person whom prioritises on reading the bible. Because Jesus infalibly stated that god will provide necessities for the seeker of god's kingdom.
If your faith is strong, you should be fighting with me tooth and nail and stating that no-one whom has prioritised on seeking god's kingdom has ever died of hunger or thirst. Therefore, of the people who have starved, it was their fault for not first seeking god's kingdom.

[Gawen]

Great thread...lively debate.

Let's go back a few centuries:
Leviticus 20:24: "But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey..."

By the time Jesus comes round, one of two things is clear.
1) Either God lied and the "milk and honey" runneth out or the bees and cows runneth thither and yon, or
2) Jesus didn't preach the SotM in the "land of milk and honey".

From this thread:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8400.0
(I happen to think it is probably some of my best work)

And then there are the inconsistencies:
Starve yourself:
Matthew 6:16-18: Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
Of course, Jr doesn't say how long one should fast here.
VS.
Be happy, take no thought for the future.
Matthew 6:25-34: Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on....blah blah blah...Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things....etc.

Of course, the True Christian will seek the Kingdom and will get to eat if he/she does these things from the SotM:
Summary of the Sermon on the Mount:

Blessed are those that:
•   Are poor in spirit
•   Mourn
•   Meek
•   Hungry and thirsty for righteousness
•   Merciful
•   Pure in heart
•   Peacemakers
•   Persecuted for righteousness sake
•   Reviled and persecuted for Jesus's sake
1.   Do not hide your true self or your works
2.   Follow the Laws of Moses by exceeding the Pharisees
3.   Do not get angry with those that are "brothers" in Christ; agree with your adversary
4.   Do not call people insulting names
5.   Do not look at a woman with lust; that is adultery
6.   Remove parts of your body that make you commit sins
7.   Divorce makes you guilty of adultery, except if done by the woman's unfaithfulness
8.   Do not swear oaths by anything; just say "Yes" or "No"
9.   Do not resist the evil of others
10.   Let your enemies continue to attack and exploit you
11.   Love, bless and pray for those that hate you
12.   If you're being sued, give them what they ask
13.   If you are asked to do something, do twice as much
14.   Give to those that ask of you
15.   Let anyone that asks borrow from you
16.   Be perfect
17.   Do not be seen giving alms; be covert about it
18.   Do not advertise your piety to others in an effort to seem virtuous
19.   Use simple, straightforward language in your devotions, and not impressive-sounding repetitious nonsense
20.   Pray a certain prayer
21.   Forgive other peoples trespasses against you
22.   Do not be sad when you fast; put oil on your head and wash your face
23.   Accumulate heavenly treasures, like piety and virtue, and not earthly ones, because the latter are vulnerable and can easily be lost or destroyed
24.   Do not try to serve both God and money; you cannot serve two masters at the same time
25.   Do not concern yourself with your life, because God will do it just as he takes care of the birds and the wildflowers
26.   Do not think for it will not add to your stature
27.   Do not wear clothes unless God gives them to you
28.   Do not judge others so you are not judged by them
29.   Do not complain about a speck in someone else's eye when you have a log in your own eye
30.   Do not give anything holy to anyone unworthy (referred to as pigs and dogs); it is like throwing pearls to pigs
31.   Ask God and you will receive exactly what you asked for; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you
32.   Do to others what you would want them to do to you
33.   Even when it is awkward and troublesome for you to be virtuous, be virtuous
34.   Watch out for false prophets, who are like wolves in sheep's clothing; you can recognize them by their actions
35.   Do not expect to make it into the Godly Hall of Fame (Kingdom of Heaven) by bragging about what good things you have done
36.   Anyone that does not do the above items is foolish
37.   Anyone that does do all the above items is wise
38.   The above items come from authority of God

Now you know why many so-called Christians starve to death. Jesus was a MAN...full of shit. He even KNEW that many would starve:
Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/b]
But never fear, all is well. Do these sayings and you become wise...hungry, perhaps, but wise:
Matthew 7:24-29: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man...

Can anyone explain the "wisdom" of Jesus here?

Nope...because there is no wisdom there.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Well, when it comes to the US government, apparently, you can't even become president without at least an appearance of being a "good christian"

Yeah, but that really has nothing to do with the Christianity of the New Testament, which was decidedly non-political.  After 2000 years, Christianity has become confused with Western or European or American politics, which is bad for both Christianity and for politics.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

There is more than enough food in the world to feed all 7 billion of us. The reason people starve is because of people.  God has given sufficient food, and expects us to distribute it, just like the disciples did with the loaves and fishes.  We have failed, not God.

Soooo, does this mean that if you give thanks before your meal, you should be giving thanks to the people who sent it to you and not God? Only seems fair. If God doesn't get the blame for people starving, he shouldn't get the thanks for people eating.

God doesn't exist. So he isn't due any thanks for anything whatsoever.

I understand that this is the position of the vast majority of people on this forum.  I'm not trying to preach here, I'm just trying to respond to the challenge presented from the perspective of a believer.  Hopefully that is understood.  

It also happens to be the truth.

With all due respect, none of us actually knows what the truth is about God. Some believe, some do not. No one can claim absolute knowledge.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If your faith is strong Bruce, I would expect you to say the person whom prioritises on reading the bible. Because Jesus infalibly stated that god will provide necessities for the seeker of god's kingdom.
If your faith is strong, you should be fighting with me tooth and nail and stating that no-one whom has prioritised on seeking god's kingdom has ever died of hunger or thirst. Therefore, of the people who have starved, it was their fault for not first seeking god's kingdom.

I don't think this is an issue of blaming people for starving because they failed to seek the kingdom of God. The promise is not punitive - it does not say that if you do not seek the kingdom you will starve. It is simply a promise that if you focus on the kingdom, God will take care of you.  You don't need to be worrying about tomorrow.  That doesn't mean that you don't work or that you can just sit around reading the Bible and hamburgers will appear at your front door.  It simply means that God will take care of you.  Again, if anyone can point to a particular case where this failed, I'll be happy to consider it. But just pointing to people or even Christians in general who might have starved doesn't do the trick.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Great thread...lively debate.

Can anyone explain the "wisdom" of Jesus here?

Nope...because there is no wisdom there.

So, it's better to spend all your time worrying and fretting about things?  That's great advice.  It will sure make the shrinks rich. Jesus presented a paradigm for life that had a specific end - the believer/disciple could live his/her life without the constant stress of worrying about where the next meal would come from.  If you can show me specifically that this promise fails, I'll listen to you.  In my experience it works.   

[Stevil]

So, it's better to spend all your time worrying and fretting about things?  That's great advice.  It will sure make the shrinks rich. Jesus presented a paradigm for life that had a specific end - the believer/disciple could live his/her life without the constant stress of worrying about where the next meal would come from.  If you can show me specifically that this promise fails, I'll listen to you.  In my experience it works.   

Dispite the bad advise the bible tells us that Jesus said, we ought to take care of ourselves as if there is no god.
We ought to be very concerned with regards to the necessities of live, food, water, shelter.
Living just for today almost guarantees no future, we ought to plant crops, and build farms so that we can feed ourselves.

Food and our future ought to be top priority, not worship of some mythical invisible creature that is made of nothing and is/remains unobservable, as if it does not and has never existed.

[Tank]

There is more than enough food in the world to feed all 7 billion of us. The reason people starve is because of people.  God has given sufficient food, and expects us to distribute it, just like the disciples did with the loaves and fishes.  We have failed, not God.

Soooo, does this mean that if you give thanks before your meal, you should be giving thanks to the people who sent it to you and not God? Only seems fair. If God doesn't get the blame for people starving, he shouldn't get the thanks for people eating.

God doesn't exist. So he isn't due any thanks for anything whatsoever.

I understand that this is the position of the vast majority of people on this forum.  I'm not trying to preach here, I'm just trying to respond to the challenge presented from the perspective of a believer.  Hopefully that is understood.  

It also happens to be the truth.

With all due respect, none of us actually knows what the truth is about God. Some believe, some do not. No one can claim absolute knowledge.

Accountants answer, I expected nothing less, or more, for that matter. If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

[Asmodean]

Well, when it comes to the US government, apparently, you can't even become president without at least an appearance of being a "good christian"

Yeah, but that really has nothing to do with the Christianity of the New Testament, which was decidedly non-political.  After 2000 years, Christianity has become confused with Western or European or American politics, which is bad for both Christianity and for politics.

Christianity is what those who see themselves as Christians make it. As much as some would like to keep it static, constant and otherwise unchanging, it does evolve. Today, it's a many-headed Hydra, with virtually every head claiming sole ownership of the body.