God is perfect

[Guardian85]

No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you.

You feel demeaned by my honest challenging of your beliefs? Is that what you feel? You feel attacked if someone counters one of your points.

I did not say that I felt demeaned by your assertion that love is a physiological byproduct equal to passing gas. I'm just stating that your attempt to demean the consept of love is not a countering of the point I made, but an attempt to deflect away from actually providing a contradicting opinion based on the facts provided. I stated that love was an evolved instinct. You did nothing to to counter that statement. Am I to assume that you agree, but can't bring yourself to say it? Or is that truly the best you got?

[Tank]

No. There are differences between physiological traits and evolved instincts. The fact that you try to demean my understanding of love by equating it to the bodies simplest (and to some) disgusting functions is not a victory for you.

You feel demeaned by my honest challenging of your beliefs? Is that what you feel? You feel attacked if someone counters one of your points.

But you're not being honest are you? You're using an emotionally biased analogy to make your point. You're using a deliberately emotive connotation to troll your interlocutor.

[Too Few Lions]

If there is no hell, there's no need for a Kingdom either. There's also no ultimate justice in the universe. So, the only way your sister can be right is if atheism is true. And if atheism is true, we're all just tapping at our keyboards because we are stimulated to do so.

Yup, and there's nothing wrong with that. Your idea of 'ultimate justice' is a sad joke Egor , just as well you (or your version of god) will never get to be a judge.

[Sandra Craft]

I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.

I once read a short story where god, having created humanity many times and each time been disappointed enough to let them die out, is finally rewarded with the sort of offspring it always waned: intelligent enough to do their own thinking and independent enough to go their own way even when it meant defying god.  Turned out god couldn't stand toadying yes-men either.

[Whitney]

I figure that if god is real then life is a test that you pass by not buying into hateful religions and beliefs and generally being a good person.

I agree: Life is a test. Well, actually there are tests within life, life being the whole undergraduate program. But let me ask you this: Why would God care if you were generally a good person? If there is a God, why would he be watching over us like Santa Claus to see if we've been naughty or nice? We can be naughty or nice for all kinds of reasons. It's hardly even a criteria for judging someone.

Rather, if Jesus is right, it seems to be whether or not there is a fundamental spiritual change that takes place. He would say that once you've examined him and his life you have to choose, like the theif on the cross to recognize that you are not right and need to be with Him.

Much like a death row prisoner: If one is on death row for the worst of crimes, do we not almost see a different person should that person come to admit that they are bad, incapable of change, that they don't want to be that way anymore, that they are sorry, and that they have come to accept that their death is the only way to make things right for the victim, the victim's family, and for their own wretched human existence? If a death row inmate were like that, became like that, wouldn't they almost seem Christ-like, even though they may have been a horrible murderer? With that kind of fundamental change, we would literally be looking at a different person.

I think that's what judgement day is all about. I think that's what accepting Jesus Christ is all about.

No, a death row inmate would not be able to make any kind of change to make me think they are "christ-like" unless by Christ-like you mean evil bastard who is sorry he got caught.

How we act towards other people is a great basis for judging another person....certainly much more sound than if they arbitrarily decide to claim to follow some religion.  Your version of god is very shallow and petty...but that's how he's shown in the bible too so whatever; it's just not very philosophically sound when you take the time to think about it actually being true.

[Egor]

Your version of god is very shallow and petty...but that's how he's shown in the bible too so whatever; it's just not very philosophically sound when you take the time to think about it actually being true.

My version of God? My version of God is that God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness. He's our Creator; we are his creatures. We are to become what Jesus Christ was, because Jesus Christ was God conscious of Himself from within His creation. This is the end of human evolution.

I don't think that's a shallow version.

[Gawen]

Christlike? What the hell is that supposed to mean anyway? Shall we go to church and when the offering plate is handed to us, shall we tip it over and yell at the Holy men? Bring extra wine to a wedding? Shall we disown our family?
Let's apply some of Christ's teachings to life of today.
Matthew:15:22-28 for reference.
Woman of a different race: "Do you know which bus goes downtown?"
Christlike person: "I do not give information to dogs."
Woman: "It's true, the people of my race are dogs."
Christian: "All right then, since you admit it: take bus 68."

How about Matthew 8: 21.
You are an employer and have a huge contract deadline to make. In the middle of the contract the father of one of your employees dies and the employee wants to take funeral leave. To be Christlike, what do you do?  You do not give the man funeral leave. Instead of empathizing with the man's loss, you would make a cruel remark such as "let the dead bury their dead."


The perfect God's perfect way to salvation.
•   Abandon all your Earthly ambitions.
•   Forsake your Earthly family and give your loyalty to God and your fellow believers.  
•   Sell everything you own and use the money to do good works.  
•   Avoid receiving any Earthly reward for your good works.  
•   Follow the Mosaic Law, both the letter and the spirit of it.  
•   Abstain from all sin, inside and out;
•   Abstain from covetousness
•   Abstain from anger
•   Abstain from lust.
•   Abstain from adultery.  
•   Do WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO to abstain from lust.  
•   Practice strict nonviolent pacifism.
•   Do not resist evil.
•   Do not strike back.
•   Do good to those who hate you.  
•   Practice mercy and forgiveness and peacemaking.
•   Do not judge others; Judgment Day will come soon enough.  
•   Seek to purify your own character, strive to "be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect."
•   Over-fulfill the Law seeking to follow the spirit of it as well as the letter.
•   Practice forgiveness, mercy, reconciliation, and peacemaking.
•   Kill those that do not believe.
•   Abstain from swearing false oaths.

Never mind the contradictions or the "Do as I say, not as I do" philosophy of the perfect Christ. Never mind the teachings of Paul; he taught a different religion, that being his own. Become Christlike, not Paullike. It What Would Jesus Do, not What Would Paul Do.Honestly, if Christians cannot or will not do the things taught to them by the perfect Christ (as written within the Bible and many of them quoted above), they simply do not deserve to be called "Christian".

[Whitney]

My version of God?

Yes, your version...the one you made up in your head just like all other believers; except that the way you describe god makes him out to be petty and apparently amoral since you said it doesn't care if people are good or not.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

•   Kill those that do not believe. 

Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation?  Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?

[Whitney]

•   Kill those that do not believe. 

Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation?  Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?

I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.

[Egor]

•   Kill those that do not believe.  

Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation?  Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?

I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.

Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation, might it not be possible that the Gospels need interpretation to understand them? The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.

You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them. They are mystical documents. Talking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless. Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.

[Tank]

•   Kill those that do not believe.  

Where do you find this as part of being Christlike or as being part of God's way to salvation?  Where did Christ kill or tell his followers to kill?

I think this gets into that whole issue of if the OT is still applicable or not.

Wait a minute; if Gawen's writings require interpretation, might it not be possible that the Gospels need interpretation to understand them? The Gospels are so deeply interwoven with symbolism, allegory, secret wisdom and even riddles meant to be figured out that to just take them on the surface so concretely would only lead to destruction.

You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them. They are mystical documents. Talking to atheists about the true meaning of the teachings of Jesus Christ is pretty much pointless. Jesus had another way of describing it, but I'd probably be banned for saying it. That's the power of Christ for you.

If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.

[Ali]

You have to be spiritual in nature to read the Gospels and understand them.

Translation:  You have to already believe the BS in order for the BS to make sense.

[Sandra Craft]

If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.

It also contradicts what I was told in my church-going days -- that anyone could read the gospels and understand them and be convinced of their truth.  In fact, atheists were encouraged to read the bible as a sure-fire means of converting them.  It doesn't work that way for many of us (quite the opposite in fact, so Ed may have a point -- only people in a gibberish frame of mind can understand gibberish) but it is such an absolute belief that I've been told flat out I have to be lying when I tell them that reading the bible actually helped de-convert me.

(Edited to note:  Ali, damn you, you beat me to it!)

[Guardian85]

If God can't manage to communicate unambiguiously he really is a fucking waste of space.

Yahwee needs a course in communications.