Unhappy and anxious Atheist...

[gallahbrains]

Hi,

I've always been agnostic (my thinking being that a universe that spontaneously creates itself from nothingness is just as unlikely as any other explanation for life and the meaning of it all).

However, recently I have been leaning hard towards flat-out atheism.

But this has been making me increasingly anxious and depressed. What's the meaning of it? Why bother with anything if it's all just dust in the wind? Me, myself, my friends, the things I find beautiful, and the very emotions of love and wonder. Who cares about any of it? Who cares about the environement? In what is the blink of an eye compared to the eternity of the universe this whole place will be cosmic dust.

So what's the point? What's the point even being happy? We may as well just all top ourselves now for all the difference it's going to make to anything at all.

The fact is I'm not some mopey, gloom-filled depressive. But I don't want to become that way!

The things and the experiences I love all amount to absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things and one day - very, very soon in relative terms - all of these things will be gone forever. The thought fills me with agonizing emptines and often keeps me awake at night. And the thought of being an old man in his death bed, gasping for breath and desperately wanting to not become "nothing" is just plains scary!

Surprisingly enough it was reading Buddhism that sparked these thoughts in me (before which I was largely happily agnostic). Buddhism is supposed to make one feel happy, joyful and compassionate, but is largely an atheistic philosophy. I'm just struggling to see the point of any of it.

How can you be a "happy atheist"? How come the Dali Lama and Carl Sagan seems to be smiling in ever photo I can find of them?  I'd love to be a happy, cheerful and accepting atheist.  What's the secret?

Searching for answers, like all of us I suppose. How do you people deal with this knowledge?

[Shalo'zier]

I think it's because we don't have to live in fear anymore.

We don't have to worry about our sins, about "god" or "satan," or having to have religious doctorine memorized. We don't have to fear going to "hell," because there is no hell to be afraid of. We also don't have to worry about trying to get into that extremely selective club called "heaven."

We don't have to worry about wars breaking out because our religious text clashes with the ideas set forth by another.

Atheists all over are linked by the simple train of though, that there is no god or gods, or goddesses, no heaven, no purgetory, and no hell.

It's a relief, and in that relief one can find happiness.

[Reasoner]

Dear gallahbrains;
In  the hope of being helpful with what you're experiencing at this point, I am quoting myself from a past posting on another forum:

The sense of loss that acknowledging atheism can bring is well-put in your posting.

Your comments give me much to comment on, since I was never so optimistic in my life as I was when I finally accepted that I am a born atheist (with my enforced chidhood catholicism a traumatic distraction but never a convincing master).

As I came to see it, what could give more meaning to living than to know that the more we give ourselves and connect to other sentient beings, the richer our single (intense and precious) existence becomes? Once one knows that the meaning we derive and the pleasure we feel in life is not a "warm-up" or a precursor to anything, the freedom to feel and to know seems endless.

In not being part of some design, we don't owe a debt or have to prove worthiness just because we exist. We get to value and savor the very fact that we are consciously, unpredictably human. In not having to apologize to the universe or to the dad-in-the-sky for having been born, we can let our lives unfold according to a combination of our natural qualities and the events or actions of others that happen to present themselves.

The convoluted events and developments of biological life and the ways that the complex elements of this world interact and react are what cause "life's stupid accidents". The lack of a grand design doesn't make existence any less rich. No sudden death, disability, or radical change in the quality of a life can erase what any person has already experienced and contributed.

Optimism and the benefits it provides are not dependent on believing we might be moving on to a better world. Purpose can be found in knowing that no "greater plan" could ever have created the endless possibilities this existence presents. The constant gains in what humans observe and understand seem to increase rather than limit what life can be.

In other words, atheism and optimism will never be mutually exclusive.

[SteveS]

Hi gallahbrains - wow, excellent post, excellent question.

For perspective on my answer, I am a happy atheist.  By this I mean I am happy with my life and accepting of my mortality.  But I think everyone struggles with some of the issues you've laid out here.  I did, too.  Also, I used to call myself agnostic, primarily because I was under the mistaken opinion that atheists claimed to "know" god was nonexistent.  Now I realize it just means they don't believe in god.  Which certainly qualifies me  :wink:  

Before I start in, just a standard disclaimer, I'm hitting you up with nothing but my own personal opinion and outlook.  For whatever it's worth.

One thing I remember being caught up on was the issue of purpose or meaning.  I used to get disturbed wondering what the heck the point of existence was?  Why bother if there's no meaning, or no purpose?  But the more I thought about this, the more I became convinced that looking for meaning and purpose in existence is a human problem --- we act according to inner purpose (in other words our actions are undertaken pursuant to some purpose that arises within us), and our products (art, music, whatever) are filled with meaning that we are trying to convey.  So we subconsciously, I believe, project these qualities onto existence.  We expect there to be a purpose to things, a meaning behind their existence.  But there probably isn't --- this is just a feature of our human nature trying to understand it's own existence and going awry.

One of the long-time board members here (McQ) expressed this thought really well with this post on another thread

So, if the universe has no purpose or meaning as defined by some external agent, or god, or by itself, then what does it have?  To me it has opportunity to assign whatever purpose and meaning that I want to my own life.  I feel a need for these things because I am human - this need arises from my nature, so I must fulfill it, but there is no correct answer.  Which I view as the ultimate freedom --- I am not constrained to some meaning or purpose that is placed upon me by my existence or by some "unknowable" creator god.  I get to find whatever meaning I want in my life.  I get to live according to whatever purpose I wish.  Everybody's answer to this question is equally valid: we will all have a different purpose, but nobody's purpose is more or less valid than anyone else's purpose.  In fact, I think the only social contract we really need to sign is a shared understanding of the equality of everyone's individuality.  Do whatever you want, but only to the extent that you don't stop others from doing likewise.  I believe this outlook makes me a libertarian (philosophically speaking, not politically --- I have no idea what I am politically - besides unimpressed  :?  ).

Anyway, just a few more specific points,

So what's the point? What's the point even being happy?

The way I figure, being happy is better than being unhappy.  Another way to look at this is if there is no point, what's the point in being bummed?  Might as well be happy, right?

We may as well just all top ourselves now for all the difference it's going to make to anything at all.

But it would make a difference to me --- I like being alive.  My wife likes having a husband and my kids like having a father, so I'm not going to off myself.

Honestly, a problem here might be looking at little things as being unimportant, where I've come to realize that they're the only things that actually matter.  In other words being a happy dad might not seem like shaking or moving the world.  But, as you point out, there is no external purpose or cause that is requiring me to shake and move the world.  So whatever I do is, ultimately, all that matters to me.  If this makes sense...... What I'm really trying to say is that you don't have to worry about someone condemning your life for having no purpose --- you decide your own purpose.  The judgment of other people is what is meaningless, because there is no external rubric by which to judge purpose.  It's something we create ourselves.  So all the little things you do are your purpose.  You can make them whatever you want - you can make them whatever makes you happy.

The things and the experiences I love all amount to absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things and one day - very, very soon in relative terms - all of these things will be gone forever. The thought fills me with agonizing emptines and often keeps me awake at night. And the thought of being an old man in his death bed, gasping for breath and desperately wanting to not become "nothing" is just plains scary!

Okay - the things and experiences that you love do amount to something while you're alive, though.  This is what is important.  The fact that they will be gone one day is irrelevant because by then you will be gone.  In other words it is you that is making them important.  Enjoy them.  I do believe that I will surely become nothing.  But why let this thought ruin your time when you are most emphatically not nothing?  Besides, knowing that we can truly never leave a permanent impression, or an eternal memorial, helps keep me focused on enjoying life and being happy.  Chasing after some timeless goal is futile, so don't worry if you're not doing it.  At least, that's the way I look at it.

Anyway, I hope this helps explain how at least one person deals with these issues.  I also drink regularly, which I would highly endorse.  One of my purposes (I have several) is to enjoy good beer  :wink:  .

[tacoma_kyle]

You probably feel a 'little down' because you are now very different from much of what makes up the sosciety of wherever yo come from. I am the same way, ups and downs I guess. Nothin serious though.

Coming to terms with it may take a while. Took me like a year, but I didn't know really anyone else that was much like me. Four-5 years back...

[gallahbrains]

Hi guys,

Well thanks for your thoughtful and intelligent replies. They are some comfort, although I'm sure the 4 pints of beer I've had this afternoon don't hurt either. ;-)

I am hoping this is a transitional phase and I will come out the other side smiling and cheerful, just like Carl Sagan (whith whose perspective I can so closely and unwillingly relate).

There is one point that maybe some kind of unimportant "saviour" for some kind of afterlife however (and no, I do not believe I am clinging at straws)...

Besides, knowing that we can truly never leave a permanent impression, or an eternal memorial, helps keep me focused on enjoying life and being happy. Chasing after some timeless goal is futile, so don't worry if you're not doing it. At least, that's the way I look at it.

I'm not convinced about this. Maybe (probably) no thinking, concious part of me, or anyone else, will remain after death. But one thing is surely certain: what is done cannot be undone. Whatever we do in this life is recorded forever in the records of time (whatever that is). And just because our life comes to an end does not mean it ceases to exist in just the same way that when a a movie comes to an end it does not cease to exist. Maybe (probably) we cannot choose to relive this as we would rewatch a movie, but my point remains, what we do is done and cannot be undone. At-least to some extent what we do in this life really does "echo for eternity" (cheesey I know). Not saying we remain as a concious entity of some kind, but ... y'know ... space and time and all that unknown stuff. Whatever the case, once something is done it is always done and it really is recorded in time, even if nothing and nobody is ever there to appreciate or witness it (which is the sad part).

Well - that's my thinking right now. I have no idea if it is right or wrong, but often I wish I was not "blessed" with such rational thinking.

Thanks again guys, you all seem most compassionate, friendly and helpful.

[gallahbrains]

P.S. --- I will also add that it seems - unlike many here - I have not come from any formal position of faith, I was an unthinking agnostic/atheist that suddenly, for whatever reason, considered his position in life and was a little frightened by the conclusions I drew. (although I still have some kind of respect for most people of faith, I do not agree with their theories). Seems a lot here have been bought up religeous (catholic) and then later rejected it. I was bought up nothing really.

Just for what it's worth....

I'm just thinking, can the simple, irrelevant pleasures that I persue in life really be worth anything? Buddhism teaches that to some extent the answer is "no", and attachment - even to ones friends and family - is detrimental to true happiness. If that really is that case then I'm f--ked. Attachment to my friends, family and the things I find beautiful in this life is the only things that give me pleasure. To think I will one day have to deal with their parting, my parting, and our eternal seperation is scary and distrurbing to say the least. Which is the cause of my original post.

[pjkeeley]

Gallahbrains, welcome.

I'm in the same position. Agnostic / irreligious all my life (raised by atheists in a largely irreligious country), and had always considered there to be some deeper purpose in the universe that just wasn't covered by the major religions, but I recently examined my beliefs and found myself confronted by the sheer absurdity of existence. It's depressing, it's worrying and it can be a real drain on your motivation at times. You'll get through it though.

So what's the point? What's the point even being happy? We may as well just all top ourselves now for all the difference it's going to make to anything at all.

A good starting point might be Albert Camus' essay The Myth of Sisyphus. He begins with the question of suicide and draws the conclusion that life is absurd. It might be one of the most pessimistic views in philosophy but he does make a convincing case for living life in the face of absurdity. For more reading on how philosophy addresses the question of suicide there is a substantial list of complete essays here.

A good contemporary book about the meaning of life is Julian Baggini's What's it all About? His position is one of an atheist philosopher and he addresses a wide range of topics including happiness. The points he makes I found very convincing. He does not conclude with a simple answer but a wide range of ways in which we can find meaning in life (without religion, which simply confounds the question). Also, there is a good post on this blog (Happiness & Philosophy) about how death relates to our search for meaning and happiness in life. Short, and well worth the read. On death, I also found this essay enlightening:
Death and the Meaning of Life.

For some lighter reading on how atheists find meaning in life, see:
- The Meaning of Life!
- Atheist Inspiration

And if you're entirely unconvinced by any of these arguments, there's always the promise of hope from transhumanism. The author believes that even if we don't live to see the 'singularity', we will still be leading meaningful lives by helping bring it about.

The things and the experiences I love all amount to absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things and one day - very, very soon in relative terms - all of these things will be gone forever. The thought fills me with agonizing emptines and often keeps me awake at night. And the thought of being an old man in his death bed, gasping for breath and desperately wanting to not become "nothing" is just plains scary!

Is the 'nothingnes' really all that scary? It sounds peaceful to me! For what it's worth, I recently wrote about the subject of death and afterlife beliefs on my blog. I think that afterlife beliefs are actually worse fates than, or as equally meaningless as, the atheist notion of death.

In any case, the fact that you fear death means that you obviously enjoy what you've got now! It's a good sign.

How can you be a "happy atheist"? How come the Dali Lama and Carl Sagan seems to be smiling in ever photo I can find of them? I'd love to be a happy, cheerful and accepting atheist. What's the secret?

There isn't really a secret. I think a lot of anxiety is simply the result of the kind of values our society pushes. Nobody questions the consumer religion. We are told to chase happiness through hard work and that everything we desire can be gained through toiling for money. This is all nonsense. If you chase happiness and sacrifice everything for future goals you have only yourself to blame if you find yourself unfulfilled. Don't worry! Find things you want to do and then do them. Don't do what you don't want to do. If your job is getting you down, considering finding another one, or none at all. Learn a musical instrument! Learn a language! Play a sport! Write a novel! I've been doing all these things and they've really broadened my life. Take time out to enjoy all the simple pleasures in life that are worthwhile for their own sake.

An excellent book I've just read is How To Be Free by Tom Hodgkinson. The back cover says it all: 'Life is absurd. Be merry. Be free.' It's such a fantastic book. Everyone in the world should read it. It will free your minds. Seriously!

So yeah. I hope you find any of this, or anything the other users have contributed, to be useful to you.

Peace.  :wink:

[gallahbrains]

Well, I'm feeling a lot better today, thank God. ;-)

I think it comes down to perspective. In the worst case--and most likely scenario--of us becoming nothing for eternity when we die, it's not as if we're going to be there, experiencing the nothingness thinking, "well this is lonely and it sucks". I think the true reality of the situation is largely incomprehensible to the human mind: our brains are just not powerful enough to imagine eternity or true non-existence.

However, what they are powerful enough to comprehend is the beauty and the opportunity this life has presented to us, and what a precious opportunity is life. Instead of struggling to comprehend the incomprehensible--and totally irrelevant--nature of eternal nothingness, we should be basking in the beauty of life and, if struggling to comprehend anything at all, struggling to comprehend the staggering opportunity that has been given to each of us.

It's a matter of perspective, I'm sure. Although I'd still like to believe I was going to heaven, afterall, once I'm dead and find out that's not actually the case, I won't actually be there to be dissapointed. It would make life maybe a bit easier though to live in the lap of luxurious ignorance. )

[pjkeeley]

Good to hear! See my post above, I edited it just now if you're looking for any worthwhile reading material on the subject to back you up.

Peace.

[SteveS]

Hey man - congrats on the 4 pints.  I heartily approve of your technique    

However, what they are powerful enough to comprehend is the beauty and the opportunity this life has presented to us, and what a precious opportunity is life. Instead of struggling to comprehend the incomprehensible--and totally irrelevant--nature of eternal nothingness, we should be basking in the beauty of life and, if struggling to comprehend anything at all, struggling to comprehend the staggering opportunity that has been given to each of us.

That's the spirit!

I'm not convinced about this. Maybe (probably) no thinking, concious part of me, or anyone else, will remain after death. But one thing is surely certain: what is done cannot be undone.

This is a good point, and is certainly true.  There's kind of two different contexts to my point about a "timeless goal".  Immediately after my demise, the effects of me, my life, and what I've done will linger.  I don't argue that this is unimportant --- in others words, if I become depressed I'm not going to commit suicide because I have dependent children, and this would hardly be a responsible thing to do.  Or, I can find enjoyment in knowing that I've enriched or enhanced the lives of others who will live on after me.  These things make sense.

My context was more to the point that eventually there will be no earth, no sun, no human beings, perhaps either a collapse of the universe back into a singularity or (more likely at the current time, I believe) a boundless expansion that leads to heat death.  In this context, everything becomes temporary.  This doesn't make it pointless to me, it just means it must be enjoyed in it's time.

What I'm really trying to get across is, it's okay to snicker at all the stiffs leading highly constrained lifestyles because they believe that by doing so they will lead happy lives eternally in heaven for the rest of forever.  Seems to me that they are blowing their one true opportunity at life because they have failed to realize that they cannot achieve a permanent reward --- because all things are temporary.  

Hopefully this makes more sense out of my muddled thought process.

Is the 'nothingnes' really all that scary? It sounds peaceful to me!

Yeah - I get this, big time.  Especially as I've aged I've become more and more enamored of the thought of "peaceful" oblivion.  Also, it reminds me of one of my favorite poems,

From too much love of living,
     From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
     Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever ;
That dead men rise up never ;
That even the weariest river
     Winds somewhere safe to sea.

If anyone is ever foolish enough to ask me to say grace before a meal I plan on reciting this.  Afterall, it does have the word "god" in it (at least in plural form), right?  :wink:

pj - I read through some of the articles you posted - I found The Meaning of Life! link to be particularly enjoyable (Have you ever built a snowman?  LOL - Perfect!)

[Tom62]

Hi SteveS, thanks for the wonderful "The meaning of Life" link. It cheered me up enormously.

[SteveS]

Tom62, I must give credit where credit is due --- pjkeeley posted the link.  I liked it too.

[gallahbrains]

Just a quick note to say thanks guys for the lengthy posts & links. I read & enjoyed them all. )

[pjkeeley]

I think also we (atheists) have to find some sort of middle ground about it. Life isn't always going to be pleasant, happiness will often be hard to come by. I still get these sort of, pangs of despair, when I think about death (my own and other people's -- just the whole idea of it). I often have to remind myself why I shouldn't be worrying about it. And sometimes (oddly, when I seem to be having the most fun, like when I'm out drinking with friends), I get the hopeless feeling that my enjoyment and the things I do is all futile. What is it all really? Isn't my happiness just chemicals in my brain? What's meaningful about that?

But no matter what, I find there are always things that just ARE meaningful, regardless of how you think about them. One example for me is music. Music is just such a powerful thing. Listening to music, and even better, playing music, FEELS meaningful in an unexplainable way. If you deconstruct it, all any piece of music is is a bunch of notes -- just sounds! -- played together or alone in a particular sequence and chopped up with different amounts of silence. If you think of it like that, music seems utterly meaningless. Just vibrations. But clearly when you listen to music you know it's not meaningless; it has a huge effect on our emotions, our thoughts, our bodies and so on. It communicates things that can't be communicated through language (and indeed some people say it is the universal language). A million different people can find a million different interpretations out of one piece of music. A song has its ups and downs, it repeats its themes, it takes us on a journey through verses and choruses and melodies and harmonies and then, once it's given us everything we want to hear, it ends.

So I guess the conclusion of this rant is that life is like music. Real subtle I know.