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What would it take for you (a creationist) to...

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2009, 02:24:11 AM »
Thank you, MonstersInsideMe, it's nice to be reminded that not all those with religion are mad as hatters.

Though, I do take a bit of issue with the idea that religion answers the "why". I think that religion grants meaning to the processes science studies, but can not actually answer any questions about it. That's because religion is, by any measure, an essentially random set of value judgments. Because it requires you take certain assumptions on faith alone - not the least of which is the idea of a creator/guider god.

Because it's a matter of faith, and can not be proven true or even granted evidence, it doesn't actually answer questions but readily provides a framework on which to see meaning in one's existence - and it does not require evidence or proof to fill that role.
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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2009, 02:42:33 AM »
Quote from: "JillSwift"
Thank you, MonstersInsideMe, it's nice to be reminded that not all those with religion are mad as hatters.

Though, I do take a bit of issue with the idea that religion answers the "why". I think that religion grants meaning to the processes science studies, but can not actually answer any questions about it. That's because religion is, by any measure, an essentially random set of value judgments. Because it requires you take certain assumptions on faith alone - not the least of which is the idea of a creator/guider god.

Because it's a matter of faith, and can not be proven true or even granted evidence, it doesn't actually answer questions but readily provides a framework on which to see meaning in one's existence - and it does not require evidence or proof to fill that role.


Right, but that's what I'm saying.  The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs. As a Christian I think that God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation (an essential part of evolution).  What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.  That's the point I'm trying to make. Does that make sense?  I'm trying to clarify and I'm not sure I'm doing that great of a job.

~Amanda~

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2009, 06:59:21 AM »
Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
Right, but that's what I'm saying.  The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs.
Well, here's the thing: To say that something "can not be explained by science" is a big, big claim. I think you would be hard pressed indeed to actually back that claim.

Abiogenesis is being explored by science still, and such research is really still at the starting stages, so there isn't currently any broadly accepted description of how it came about, but that does not mean an explanation isn't forthcoming.

Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
As a Christian I think that God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation (an essential part of evolution).  What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.  That's the point I'm trying to make. Does that make sense?  I'm trying to clarify and I'm not sure I'm doing that great of a job.

~Amanda~
You're positing what is classically labeled as the "God of the gaps". Where there is currently no known or no clear explanation, one posits "God did it."

I was describing something more philosophical: No matter what the explanation, or lack of, the idea of God and a surrounding religion offers not an explanation of the events and processes, but instead offers some context for meaning. It avoids messes that the "God of the gaps" will get into when science fills that gap.
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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2009, 07:41:40 AM »
Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
Right, but that's what I'm saying. The thing that started the chemical evolution, the spontaneous generation of life if you will, cannot be explained by science, that has to be explained by a persons own beliefs.

If it cannot be explained then you must conclude: "I don't know." Not, "Therefore the answer is God!"

And for the record.... you're wrong. It can (in theory) be explain. It hasn't yet fully been explained. We do know that organic compounds can come from inorganic compounds.

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Religion answers the WHY.

Why questions presuppose purpose. There's nothing reasonable in asking "Why?" for everything.

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It's definitely possible to believe in evolution and still be Christian. The two are not against each other AT ALL,

It is possible but actually less reasonable than fundamentalism. Evolution shows we are not designed. Any creator would have to be merely a chooser of physical laws. He does not posses powers nor the concern of the God in the Gospels. But at any rate: I'm glad you believe in evolution.  :headbang:
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 01:45:53 AM »
When you say " I believe that God facilitated that evolution, whereas many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred. " and " God gave that spark and facilitated random mutation "

What do you mean he facilitated random mutation? Mutations are caused, by and large, when strands of DNA are copied incorrectly ( there are many specefic ways in which this can happen ). The copying process is governed by the laws of physics ( molecular dynamics ), due to a multitude of factors involved with molecular dynamics ( the molecules are vibrating and moving about all over the place, they are very pliable, and the process for folding them is not foolproof), errors are bound to occur every now and again.

Errors like this will happen as long as there is DNA like substances and as long as the laws of physics are in effect. Do you mean to say god facilitates these mutations simply in a passive way, by making the laws of physics as they are, or do you mean he deliberatley interferes in a supernatural way, so that if a scientist looked at a mutation taking placing through an implausibly powerful microscope, he would see a little bit of magic?

Also, asking someone to explain why a random event occured is a pretty tough task, scientists tend to be rather clever, but I think you may be asking too much of them.
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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 02:38:01 AM »
I'm not trying to convince you guys that this facilitating by God is the truth.  I'm just stating my belief and my personal opinion.  I already told you I'm not trying to make you believe anything I believe, so for the person who asked me to prove it; I can't.  That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

@SSY
According to my beliefs, God is the creator of science and the mechanisms of mutation, etc., so he doesn't need to interfere by using "a little bit of magic".

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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2009, 02:57:55 AM »
Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
I'm not trying to convince you guys that this facilitating by God is the truth.  I'm just stating my belief and my personal opinion.  I already told you I'm not trying to make you believe anything I believe, so for the person who asked me to prove it; I can't.  That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

@SSY
According to my beliefs, God is the creator of science and the mechanisms of mutation, etc., so he doesn't need to interfere by using "a little bit of magic".

Ok, glad I am clear now.

Though this still leaves questions. You said scientists can't explain why mutations happen, did you infact mean scientists can't explain why the laws of physics are as they are? When you said "many other scientists aim to explain why sudden "random" mutations occurred" you seem to imply the mutations are not random at all, which is why I asked about the magic, are they random ( as in comply with the laws of physics, but impossible to predict is a causal wa) or has god decided these mutations are going to happen, and they are happening according to his plan?

How would you differentiate between mechanisms and laws of physics put in place by god ( Your god ), put in place by some other god, or that just seemed to be a part of the universe?
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SSY: You are fairly smart and to think I thought you were a few fries short of a happy meal.
Quote from: "Godschild"
explain to them how and why you decided to be athiest and take the consequences that come along with it
Quote from: "Aedus"
Unlike atheists, I'm not an angry prick

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2009, 03:50:05 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm totally new to this, now that I've finished my exams I'm finding I have WAY too much time on my hands and am beginning to ponder the confusion that is religion, so please be gentle, my brain is still trying to recover from months of revision :)

If you are a Christian who beleives in evolution, I'm assuming this means you believe in death coming before Adam sinned. I thought most Christians believed that God initially created a perfect world, and so obvioulsy death would not be a part of it.  What are your thoughts on this?
If as a Christian you then believe there will be a new heaven and new earth, in the state that God originally intended it to be, from an evolutionist's point of view, wouldn't it contain death and suffering? And why would a perfect God create a world with death etc. in the first place?

Also, at what point do you start believing the rest of the Bible and take it literally?

Thanks

Squid

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2009, 02:32:43 AM »
Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
That's what faith is about and I think its unfair to say that it is on me to prove that to anyone but myself.  In my mind I see this correlation. "I see blue." "Well prove to me that the blue you see is the same blue I see or else its not really blue because its not blue for everyone"  Sorry I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed and attacked even though I'm probably not being attacked.

Ah, the wonders of Rayleigh scattering....[/mini-hijack]

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2009, 12:06:57 AM »
Apparently, transitional fossils and the "hobbit" have destroyed whatever credibility evolution had. As well as "dishonesty" in the scientific community and how its not possible we went from fur to sweat.  :hmm:
"Peacefully they will die, peacefully they will expire in your name, and beyond the grave they will find only death. But we will keep the secret, and for their own happiness we will entice them with a heavenly and eternal reward."

Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2009, 01:07:55 AM »
Quote from: "MonstersInsideMe"
What causes the mutations can't be explained by science, science can only say that they happened.

not trying to attack you, but google "what causes genetic mutations" and none of the billion responses will say "god." science does explain what causes mutations.  :raised:
"(insert favorite carl sagan quote here)" - Carl Sagan

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Re: What would it take for you (a creationist) to...
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 05:22:25 PM »