News:

Departing the Vacuousness

Main Menu

My gun

Started by Ecurb Noselrub, October 09, 2020, 03:33:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Tank

Quote from: billy rubin on February 14, 2021, 01:21:36 PM
...

three people were killed and 17 wounded at a garlic festival i used to attend.

...

Serves them right!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

billy rubin

i was driving a dozen or so unscreened beehives through there one morning. didn't know th egarlic festival had started. the highway was blocked and the security wouldn't let me through. told me i had to drive into th parking lot with about a zillion people there and go out another entrance to get by.

driving unscreened beehives through a weekend crowd was not my first choice, but i went in and out pretty quick.

on another occasion i just parked by the guards and said

i'll wait.

in five minutes my truck was surrounded by a cloud of confused honeybees and the guards changed their minds.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Anne D.

Quote from: billy rubin on February 14, 2021, 01:21:36 PM
well, ive been too close too many shootings.

my cousin died with seven bullets in his back in a university conference room.

eight people died and 23 were shot in a town i used to live in, on streets i drove on every day.

three people were killed and 17 wounded at a garlic festival i used to attend.

a man two cars in front of me at a stoplight had his head blown off with a 12 gauge slug.

i have no problems with people who believe violence will never touch their lives.  my experience.has been different.

I am sorry that you have had people close to you die by gun violence, truly. And I do not believe violence will never touch my life. It can touch any of ours. (I live in a very "shoot-y" neighborhood. In the summer, we hear gunfire nearby weekly.) But I don't think everyone having a gun is the answer. The killings you list may or may not have been prevented if everyone in the situation had a gun. And if everyone's got a gun, that in turn can lead to more violence and death, not necessarily for the initial perpetrator.

Ecurb Noselrub

I really don't think owning a pistol is a penis fetish or sublimation.  After all, lots of women enjoy target practice.  It's fun to shoot, and if you need it for protection sometime, it's there.  But, to each his/her own.

billy rubin

Quote from: Anne D. on February 14, 2021, 04:12:34 PM
I am sorry that you have had people close to you die by gun violence, truly. And I do not believe violence will never touch my life. It can touch any of ours. (I live in a very "shoot-y" neighborhood. In the summer, we hear gunfire nearby weekly.) But I don't think everyone having a gun is the answer. The killings you list may or may not have been prevented if everyone in the situation had a gun. And if everyone's got a gun, that in turn can lead to more violence and death, not necessarily for the initial perpetrator.

well, anne, you bring up important points. i don't think everyone should own a gun, as i know of morons who have accidents with them because they don't take them seriously or hurt people because they aren't mentally suited to own one in the first place. and its certainly true that if everyone had a gun, that s it might lead to more deaths and violence for those reasons. if you want, we might talk about what to do in this country, because i think gun violence in the united states is out of control. i am in favour of limiting access to semiautomatic weapons, for example, and i own three of them.

but all those people i mentioned who were killed didn't have a weapon, and were killed by an attacker who did. they had no means to defend themselves, and they died. in particular, the man who killed my cousin also killed two other university professors at the same time, the last one of whom he hunted down and killed at leisure. the only defense that man had was to hide under a table.

if i am ever in a similar situation, it may turn out well, or it may not. but i will have an option that he didn't, and it may save my life.

let me ask you this.

what would you do if you were that physics professor, hiding under a table and listening to the footsteps of a man walking down the hallway to kill you? and there was a loaded and cocked gun lying on the floor next to you?

would you reason that possessing that gun might or might not save your life, and having it available to you "might lead to more violence and death, and not necessarily to the original perpetrator?"

what you would do, in that situation?

this is not a trick question, and i am not trying to back you into some kind of corner. i am seriously interested in your opinion.


more people have been to berlin than i have

Anne D.

Quote from: billy rubin on February 14, 2021, 09:02:16 PM
Quote from: Anne D. on February 14, 2021, 04:12:34 PM
I am sorry that you have had people close to you die by gun violence, truly. And I do not believe violence will never touch my life. It can touch any of ours. (I live in a very "shoot-y" neighborhood. In the summer, we hear gunfire nearby weekly.) But I don't think everyone having a gun is the answer. The killings you list may or may not have been prevented if everyone in the situation had a gun. And if everyone's got a gun, that in turn can lead to more violence and death, not necessarily for the initial perpetrator.

well, anne, you bring up important points. i don't think everyone should own a gun, as i know of morons who have accidents with them because they don't take them seriously or hurt people because they aren't mentally suited to own one in the first place. and its certainly true that if everyone had a gun, that s it might lead to more deaths and violence for those reasons. if you want, we might talk about what to do in this country, because i think gun violence in the united states is out of control. i am in favour of limiting access to semiautomatic weapons, for example, and i own three of them.

but all those people i mentioned who were killed didn't have a weapon, and were killed by an attacker who did. they had no means to defend themselves, and they died. in particular, the man who killed my cousin also killed two other university professors at the same time, the last one of whom he hunted down and killed at leisure. the only defense that man had was to hide under a table.

if i am ever in a similar situation, it may turn out well, or it may not. but i will have an option that he didn't, and it may save my life.

let me ask you this.

what would you do if you were that physics professor, hiding under a table and listening to the footsteps of a man walking down the hallway to kill you? and there was a loaded and cocked gun lying on the floor next to you?

would you reason that possessing that gun might or might not save your life, and having it available to you "might lead to more violence and death, and not necessarily to the original perpetrator?"

what you would do, in that situation?

this is not a trick question, and i am not trying to back you into some kind of corner. i am seriously interested in your opinion.

Sure I'd pick up and use the random gun that was laying there in the hypothetical you pose. And I'd try to kill the pyschopath. I don't know that that proves anything.

I'm tired of the American male (and it's largely male) fetishizing of guns. Icarus's post below is an example. But it's also there in the following:

"we ll have to see what trump does and to what extent there will be any continuation of civil unrest. i still carry a .380 in my pocket when i leave the house. not so much because of political issues but just because i live in a dangerous country.

better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

what a country."

So many American men just seem to be itching for their Charlie Bronson Death Wish fantasies to come true. And it's not just the Trumpanistas who were at the Capitol last month.

billy rubin

what it proves is that using a gun for self defense is okay with your system of values, anne. if its okay to use a gun, then i think its self evident that it must also be okay to have a gun available to use.

i disagree with you on motives for carrying one; but i'm thinking your experience has been different and has led you to a different opinion.

i carry a gun because its common sense. no need for any more justification than that.


more people have been to berlin than i have

jumbojak

Quote from: Anne D. on February 15, 2021, 02:28:16 AM

So many American men just seem to be itching for their Charlie Bronson Death Wish fantasies to come true. And it's not just the Trumpanistas who were at the Capitol last month.

I can't speak for every American man but in my case I certainly don't want to be involved in any sort of violence. I don't want to fight anyone, I don't want to shoot anyone, and the thought of smashing someone's skull in with a baseball bat is truly horrifying.

That said, I have been involved in real violence on several occasions and have seen the aftermath on others. My experience is what leads me to carry a firearm as well as pepper spray everywhere I possibly can. I train to use that firearm, and the pepper spray, and hands on skills.

I try to abide by the Rule of Stupid - don't go stupid places at stupid times with stupid people - but there are times when the stupid finds you. Over the summer an angry patron attempted to kick in our door after closing so he could kill some of our staff. When the door wouldn't give he voiced his desire to grab his can of gas to burn the building down. Fortunately the police arrived before he made it inside the building.




"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

billy rubin

there are definitiely people in my neighborhood w6who shouldn't own a gun. my neighbor up the road is a really nice guy, quite timid. but now that he owns a semiautomatic pistol he watches strange cars on the road and follows them around to see what they are up to. he also carries a small 32 caliber revolver in his pocket, of all things. has probably never shot either one.

my nearest neighbor wears a giant pistol on his hip when he drrves around in his ute in th eevenings. i asked him why he carried a gun and he toldme it was to protect himself from the bears. there are more bigfoots around here than bears.

the man who rents the pasture to the north carries a concealed weapon without a permit and brags about shootingb at traffic on my road that offends him. he's the guy that i look out for, because he is not intelligent and actually shoots the thing at people. he has had conversations with the local sherriff, but not enough of them.

its a difficult question. not one of these three people expresses a reasonable argument for carrying a deadly weapon, and two are not responsible, in my opinion. i have no problem with requiring serious competency tests for owning weapons, but the american constitution excludes that. i'm always interested in hearing suggestions for what we should do, but the unreasonable stuff from either endpoint of th econversation doesn't offer any solutions.



more people have been to berlin than i have

Bad Penny II

#24
Quote from: billy rubin on February 15, 2021, 06:27:13 PMi'm always interested in hearing suggestions for what we should do, but the unreasonable stuff from either endpoint of th econversation doesn't offer any solutions.

I have no suggestions.

I find your squeamish attitude towards screen violence a bit... Quaker,  and then there is your acceptance of weapons designed to kill humans, interesting.

Take my advice, don't listen to me.

billy rubin

yes. its a contradictio n ive been working through for a long time. no answer to it, really, in the end

back when i was religious it was a lot easier, because i believed in right and wrong, very clear cut. pacifism good, force bad. good, evil. etc . . . now im in that odd world where i dont believe in morality at all, but choose to live my life as if i did.

so in my case, i step back to the only source of morality thats makes any sense, natural selection, even though i don't give it any more genuine value than any other. that means i work hard to defend my kin, like my family, and don't work as hard to defend non-kin, like the far away kids starving in yemen. i am not aggressive or antagonistic to people, which is a relic of my former religion, but i would certainly shoot someone who threatened my kids, which is instinctive.

no answer there. the position i've described is based on reason, which itself is a cultural illusion. i just muddle along, mostly.

those lou reed lyrics are disturbing, no? or aren't they?


more people have been to berlin than i have

Bluenose

I have been reading this thread with a kind of academic interest.  I live in a country where the likelihood of someone shooting me is virtually non-existent.  Most people who do get shot here are members of the criminal underworld so it does not effect me.  Essentially if you play with fire you will get burnt.  Sure there are occasional incidents of mentally ill people going off the rails, but that is so rare that it can basically be ignored.  You're more likely to be run over crossing the road.

Although I have never understood the American fetish for guns, I'm not scared of them.  I have fired quite a few different types of firearms from hand guns, rifles and even, when I was in the Navy, submachine guns.  If I lived in the country I might well own a rifle for shooting deer, bunnies etc and I would consider joining a pistol club.  What I would never think of doing in million years is carrying a weapon for "protection".  When not in use for its intended purpose, any weapon I might own would be safely locked away in a secure gun cabinet with the ammunition and bolt stored in a separate secure cabinet.  I don't see how the USA can ever solve its firearms problem until the purchase and possession of them is strictly controlled and the insane idea of open carry and concealed carry are abolished.

I am sure that many in the 2nd amendment at any cost brigade will assume this is some sort of left wing "take all our guns" idea.  Well, some of your guns DO need to be taken.  I see absolutely no sensible reason for members of the public having assault style weapons of any sort.  As for other long arms, if it was up to me these would be limited to bolt action rifles with a limit of 5 rounds in the magazine.  I pride myself on the accuracy of my shooting and as far as I am concerned if you need more than that to shoot a deer or a rabbit or whatever, you either need more training or should not be allowed to possess a gun.

I am so tired of reading about people being shot in America.  It is so senseless and serves only to spread sadness and misery.  Wake up!
+++ Divide by cucumber error: please reinstall universe and reboot.  +++

GNU Terry Pratchett


Sandra Craft

I'm an American and I don't understand our national gun fetish either, nor do I think they're "sexy" and really don't understand what people who do are going on about.

On the other hand, I was raised with the idea that a gun is, or can be, a useful tool for defense of self and others, and was taught how to shoot one as a girl.  I have thought sometimes in the last 4 years that a gun might be good to have, just in case, but then so many things make my having a gun seem more symbolic than practical.  My aim, for one, which has just gotten worse over the years along with my eyesight.

As far as other forms of weapons go, I do have one of my Dad's old golf clubs but frankly don't think that would do me much good either, and certainly not against someone armed with a gun.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Dark Lightning

I was sort of raised in the gun culture. My dad bought a .38 revolver for protection in the home, and one of my friend's dad had a deer rifle he used to hunt with. But all I've ever used mine for is shooting at paper targets as a skill exercise. I shoot at the Distinguished Expert level for light rifle, which means I get 192+/200 points into the targets. Actually my average is a little over 196/200, so that means that I can hit a 5/16" circle at 50 feet with only 4 hits outside that ring...and they are just outside. At 50 yards it means "I can put your eye out, kid!", if you were standing still. I don't ever expect to have to shoot anyone, and probably wouldn't even in a home invasion. Too much other shit around to use, though less lethal. I don't live in an unsafe city, in fact I live in one of the safest. When I lived in high crime reporting districts, I still kept my guns locked up and hidden away.

billy rubin

5/16-inch at 50 yards is way impressive. i couldn't do that with a bazooka.

sandra, in most self-defense situations match-quality aim isn't really an issue, because things are very close. if it isn't close it's not self-defense. if you do decide to pick up the option again, there are classes available that can re-acquaint you with what is available these days and also give you insight on legal responsibilities.



more people have been to berlin than i have