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What if he won't go?

Bluenose

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2020, 02:13:40 AM »
I can think of two occasions when rulers cited the "divine right of kings" which seem increasingly like what Trump is preparing to do.  It did not end well for either of these (ie Charles I and Louis XVI).  I would not wish such an end to the orange one, but then I would not shed too many tears on his behalf...
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Dark Lightning

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2020, 02:38:48 AM »
The US Secret Service' presidential security detail will be assigned to the new president.
I'm quite fascinated by the USA political system. It's very different to the British and NZ system.
In NZ, we vote for a party. If during the term that party want to change their leader (Prime minister), they can do so. It is of course fraught with risk. IF a potential leader tries to usurp the incumbent and they don't succeed, then they themselves get thrown out of the party.
In USA it seems the party cannot simply change their leader. And it seems the people don't exactly vote for a party, they vote for a President. This single person has enormous power. They can sign off executive orders, they can give pardons and commute sentences, they can even commit crimes without threat of criminal indictment (it seems). They can fire anyone that opposes them or doesn't comply with their demands. They become lone ruler and their own party members become at their mercy, especially if that person remains hugely popular with their base.

Amazing amount of power, which can lead to a huge amount of corruption and distrust.

It seems to me that President Trump has removed many people loyal to the USA constitution, loyal to ethics and norms and has replaced them with people loyal to himself. It appears to me that he has taken over the Justice Department, with the appointment of Bill Barr who it seems has pledged loyalty to Trump and his political and personal wishes.

Trump is enabled by those around him, they allow him to coerce the Ukraine president for political favours, they allow him to take revenge on those that provide evidence or testify to facts that aren't in Trump's favour. They are even supporting him in voter suppression efforts, in his attempts to build up conspiracies on the legitimacy of the next USA presidential election.

USA was already polarised prior to Trump on key issues 2nd amendment, abortion, Christian rights to discriminate, evolution teachings in schools.  Right wing media it seems have been pushing hard to focus on these wedge items, building them up, with a rally cry to incite conservatives into a fervour. Fear it seems, has been a winning strategy to keep their people armed and keep them tuned into their favourite opinion or talk show. Trump has jumped on this opportunity and thrown gasoline onto the fire. It is now the political reality in USA. A president who constantly creates an us vs them narrative. Conservatives vs the extreme socialist liberals. A president who turns this into America vs the extreme socialist liberals. The liberals "hate" America, they want to destroy America, they have tried a coupe to overthrow Trump, they have fabricated a pandemic to destroy Trump's greatest ever American economy. ...and they are aggressively looking to cheat in the next election through widespread mail-in voter fraud.

The last election (2016) was crucial. The Republicans realised this, they set it up to be so by denying Obama the ability to confirm judges. They stole the lifetime Supreme Court Justice position away from Garland and now they are claiming their third SCOTUS. With Obama forced to remove the 2/3rds requirement for judicial nominations due to Republican's blocking all nominations, this was then expanded under Trump to the Supreme Court.  Now the SC can be stacked with far right, far left judges rather than trying to find judges that would be acceptable by members of both parties. The SC is now a political tool and a political goal, another wedge for political division. The Democrats and their supporters where caught with their pants down. They did not understand how crucial the 2016 election was. With Hilary conceeding (as she should have) she gave the keys to power to Donald Trump.

2020 - Trump never admits to mistakes, never admits to loses. It is outside of history and reason to consider that Trump would gracefully concede losing an election, it is outside of history and reason to consider that Trump will hand the keys of power over to anyone, let alone the Democratic party or Biden. Integrity and Grace are not part of Trump's makeup, he will always look to win at all costs.

How does the USA system cope with a presidential candidate that will not concede on the results of an election?


Dark Lightning's post assumes that there will be a "new president"
BUT for there to be a new president, the incumbent must first willingly and publicly concede.
WHAT if Trump "loses" but doesn't concede. (hint, he will never willingly concede). His thinking will likely be "I don't see why I would". Publicly he will attack the legitimacy of the election (he is already doing this). There will likely be shenanigans, enabled by Bill Barr and others to stop the counting of mail-in votes, there might even be the appointment of handpicked people to declare the outcome for certain states in liu of the votes of the people.

But regardless, as Trump had done throughout his life, he will not concede, he will leave no stone unturned, he will bend the rules, he will use the power he has at his disposal, he will drag things through the courts.
With so much contention it will be difficult for the Secret Service or the Military or anyone to take control and hand the white house over to a "new" president. Anyone attempting to do so will be seen as taking an undemocratic and aggressive approach to overthrow Trump. Trump's ample supporters, many of whom are enthusiastic about their second amendment rights will likely react.

I think it is very dangerous times in USA. It will be very interesting to see how this pans out.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I hope things are blown out of proportion, but this is my current thinking.

Nope. When (OK,  ::) if) a new president is elected, he will assume that role. The chump's wishes and resistance will be futile. In what country do you live that you think that that won't be the case? Concession is a formality, and means dick.

Bluenose

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2020, 03:46:04 AM »
...Concession is a formality, and means dick.

As an Australian, I take great exception to this turn of phrase, not only is it rude, crude and lewd, but it diminishes the English language.  The correct terminology is "Concession is a formality, and means fuck all"
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Stevil

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2020, 04:30:51 AM »
Nope. When (OK,  ::) if) a new president is elected, he will assume that role.
When we are talking about the people that are at the top of the system, there is no judge or adjudicator.

The Democratic system assumes that the players respect the system.
You have never had a case in USA where one ruling president hasn't accepted the results of an election and hasn't conceded. All of them so far have conceded.

What process is in place in USA if the losing President refuses to ever concede?
Would the Republicans in the White house, or the Senate abandon Trump and insist he concede? What did they do when he was impeached for putting pressure on Ukraine to help him cheat in this election?

Can the police step in?  Remember Bill Barr is doing everything he can to please Trump.

What about the military?  Trump is the Commander in Chief.
For the military to step in, it would be considered a military Coup. It would be unconstitutional.

The handpicked Supreme Court can make a judgement, but Trump doesn't have to accept that judgement. Trump would just go down that route to stall for time. He would never accept a judgement that goes against him.

It would need to be the people to protest on the streets. But Trump has many loyal followers. Do you think Trump's base will abandon him? Or do you think they will accept Trump's claim that the election was rigged? They will defend Trump against protesters looking to throw him out.

The only way this ends orderly is if Trump gracefully concedes.
Trump doesn't act with grace and won't give up power unless forced to. Who is going to force him?

It might even be the case that the only way Trump avoids a prison cell is by remaining in power.

Anyway, I don't know. I'm just interested to see what happens.


Icarus

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2020, 06:51:23 AM »
At the risk of over simplification, I offer this bit of commentary.  When (if) Trumps reign expires in January, he is no longer the commander in chief.  In that case he has no more authority to issue commands.  He is merely another individual with no official status.  At that time he can be bodily removed from the White House because he is a trespassing on government property. 

Let us hope that such a scenario does not come to pass.  I have no confidence that this hope will be fulfilled.

billy rubin

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2020, 02:40:10 PM »
yes

the conztitution specifiez who will be prezident and vice prezident if the election cannot be decided.

first the house picks the president and the senate picks the vice prezident.

if that cannot be resolved i think the vice prezident elect serves temporarily


if nothing is rezolved by 20 january, nancy pelozi becomes acting prezident until the issue is settled.

trump cannot remain in power merely because he refuses to concede. until the issue izjudicially  decided he has to step aside.


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Randy

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2020, 03:18:20 PM »
I think it would be hilarious to watch him getting dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming. :lol:
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Dark Lightning

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2020, 04:10:31 PM »
I think it would be hilarious to watch him getting dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming. :lol:

I'd pay money to be one of the draggers!

Bluenose

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2020, 01:22:17 AM »
I think it would be hilarious to watch him getting dragged out of the White House kicking and screaming. :lol:

I think that would be the best possible outcome of the election...    :rofl:
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Recusant

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2020, 05:14:12 AM »
Good to see you here again, Stevil:maskwink: :thumbsup:
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Stevil

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2020, 09:20:59 AM »
Good to see you here again, Stevil:maskwink: :thumbsup:
Just popping by.

Seems like quite a few peeps still here from a few year's back.

billy rubin

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Re: What if he won't go?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2020, 02:55:44 PM »
the house votes by state tho

currently they have a majority of members but a minority of states8


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