Wait a sec...

[NearBr0ken]

I've really been thinking over things the past few days ...ya know, trying to see both sides of the issue.  I don't want to become a fundamentalist atheist saying "I'm atheist because everything else is just wrong."  I want to be fair to both sides.  In my thinking, I've come to some conclusions about God that, well...make sense.  For example, if God is entirely, completely, and incorruptably perfect, doesn't it just make sense that God is not physical?  Being physical is limitation simply by nature.  Organic thoughts are limited by the capacity of the brain.  No matter what, a physical mind cannot know all for the very fact that it is physical.  A mind that does know all could not be physical and still retain this characteristic.  I'm changing my status from "atheist" to "freethinker".  I consider this a trial period for religion.  There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented.

[crocofish]

There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented.

Do you have pointers to these documented cases?

[NearBr0ken]

There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented.

Do you have pointers to these documented cases?

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

And don't just pass this off as "well we don't know how it happened but it wasn't a supernatural deity.  It had to be natural causes that we don't understand".  That's a type of bias and makes you just as guilty as the fundamentalists.

[leftyguitarjoe]

Pastor Slack  fell on his knees

immediately at my side and began

praying loudly that  I would be raised

from the dead and live!   Jesus heard!

 

Two policeman nearby came running

 to help  and together they worked

 untiringly to restore my life.  Pastor

 Slack was still praying...

 

The team shocked my heart ten times.

Normally it is done only three

 times, but they would not give up.  

Police patrol the streets. Its what they do. My own grandfather was shocked 10 times, and I credit the wit of the doctor, not god.

Nigel, an ambulance officer,

  responded to the airport call for help.

  Along with another officer with him

  and a paramedic who arrived shortly,

  they began to work for my recovery.

  After thirty minutes during which time

  there was no heartbeat nor breathing

  at all;  suddenly my heart and

  breathing began to function.  I was

   taken to the hospital.

If he was dead for 30 minuets, with no oxygen flow to his brain, and then revived, he would be a vegetable. Irreversible brain damage occurs within 10 minuets. I seriously doubt the viability of this story.

[crocofish]

If someone was truly dead and then was brought back to life, I would think that it would be a very newsworthy story in the general media and medical journals.  I find no references to the case above in any of the usual news sources nor any medical references.  I do find plenty of references on religious web sites.  Of course, it could be a vast conspiracy by the media and medical community to cover up resurrections.  I could be wrong, but in Christian teachings, I thought Jesus was supposed to be the only one who could be resurrected.

[susangail]

I've really been thinking over things the past few days ...ya know, trying to see both sides of the issue.  I don't want to become a fundamentalist atheist saying "I'm atheist because everything else is just wrong."  I want to be fair to both sides.

Good for you. See it from both sides. Then, when you conclude your personal views, you'll know they are completely yours and not just what you've been told. I've gone through this stage (between being a hardcore Christian and now) and I came out of it a confident atheist. Just keep in mind that not all atheists are in-your-face fundamentalists.

In my thinking, I've come to some conclusions about God that, well...make sense.  For example, if God is entirely, completely, and incorruptably perfect, doesn't it just make sense that God is not physical?  Being physical is limitation simply by nature.  Organic thoughts are limited by the capacity of the brain.  No matter what, a physical mind cannot know all for the very fact that it is physical.  A mind that does know all could not be physical and still retain this characteristic.

I see what you're saying, and I agree. According to Christianity, God is not physical, He created the physical. But Him not being physical doesn't mean much to me. Lots of things about God "make sense" (to me, they seem too convenient), but that's not reason enough for me to believe in Him.

There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented.

http://www.leestoneking.com/My%20Miracle.htm

And don't just pass this off as "well we don't know how it happened but it wasn't a supernatural deity.  It had to be natural causes that we don't understand".  That's a type of bias and makes you just as guilty as the fundamentalists.

I don't know how those things happened, and this may sound dumb but, I don't care. If it was supernatural, it isn't going to make me believe in God just because of it. I don't overlook it or blow it off as "we just don't understand." I see and accept that I don't understand it and move on with my life.

[susangail]

I could be wrong, but in Christian teachings, I thought Jesus was supposed to be the only one who could be resurrected.

There are people in the New Testament that were resurrected in Jesus' name. (sorry I don't have exact passages, it's been forever since I've read out of it and I'm so rusty!) There was one where a daughter (I think, could have been a son) was dead and everyone was sad and Jesus said something like "Fear not, she/he is only sleeping!" They all laughed, He got mad, there was a lesson to be learned... but yeah the kid had died and Jesus brought him/her back to life. I think there were more, but none come to mind at the moment.

[crocofish]

There was one where a daughter (I think, could have been a son) was dead and everyone was sad and Jesus said something like "Fear not, she/he is only sleeping!" They all laughed, He got mad, there was a lesson to be learned... but yeah the kid had died and Jesus brought him/her back to life.

Through the miracle of Google, the passage is Luke 8:52-55.  You gave me enough tidbits to find it.

Now everyone was crying and wailing for her. But Jesus said, "Stop crying! She's not dead but is sleeping." They laughed and laughed at him, because they knew she was dead.  But he took her hand and called out, "Young lady, get up!" So her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then Jesus directed that she be given something to eat.

I guess it is open to interpretation.  Sounds to me like Jesus knew she was just sleeping, even though others were so sure that she was dead, and he just woke her up.  I don't see Jesus getting mad, but he did get the last laugh.  I would have thought he would say something like "she is dead, but she will live again" if he intended on doing a resurrection.

[susangail]

There was one where a daughter (I think, could have been a son) was dead and everyone was sad and Jesus said something like "Fear not, she/he is only sleeping!" They all laughed, He got mad, there was a lesson to be learned... but yeah the kid had died and Jesus brought him/her back to life.

Through the miracle of Google, the passage is Luke 8:52-55.  You gave me enough tidbits to find it.

Yay! Thank you! Got to love Google...

Now everyone was crying and wailing for her. But Jesus said, "Stop crying! She's not dead but is sleeping." They laughed and laughed at him, because they knew she was dead.  But he took her hand and called out, "Young lady, get up!" So her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then Jesus directed that she be given something to eat.

I guess it is open to interpretation.  Sounds to me like Jesus knew she was just sleeping, even though others were so sure that she was dead, and he just woke her up.  I don't see Jesus getting mad, but he did get the last laugh.  I would have thought he would say something like "she is dead, but she will live again" if he intended on doing a resurrection.

I was always taught she was dead, but yes, it is open to interpretation. He always did things weird so Him saying "she's just sleeping" if she's dead doesn't seem out of the ordinary (for Jesus, man that sentence sounded funny...)

[afreethinker30]

I've really been thinking over things the past few days ...ya know, trying to see both sides of the issue.  I don't want to become a fundamentalist atheist saying "I'm atheist because everything else is just wrong."  I want to be fair to both sides.  In my thinking, I've come to some conclusions about God that, well...make sense.  For example, if God is entirely, completely, and incorruptably perfect, doesn't it just make sense that God is not physical?  Being physical is limitation simply by nature.  Organic thoughts are limited by the capacity of the brain.  No matter what, a physical mind cannot know all for the very fact that it is physical.  A mind that does know all could not be physical and still retain this characteristic.  I'm changing my status from "atheist" to "freethinker".  I consider this a trial period for religion.  There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented.

Yes but in being fair to both sides you also have to look at the fact there was never a mention of Jesus, only in the Bible.And when he was talked about in certain times it taked about Jesus being in heaven,not on this earth.Paul who wrote of Jesus never met a man named Jesus,his gospel came from talking to Jesus as a vision.If we believe that those who say they see things are out of it,then why should someone who claimed to have been visited by Jesus in a vision be believed?

[McQ]

...and the "documentation" for your example is......where?  

[Evolved]

For example, if God is entirely, completely, and incorruptably perfect, doesn't it just make sense that God is not physical?  Being physical is limitation simply by nature.  Organic thoughts are limited by the capacity of the brain.  No matter what, a physical mind cannot know all for the very fact that it is physical.  A mind that does know all could not be physical and still retain this characteristic.

By your interpretation here, our minds would not be capable of comprehending a god concept at all.

No doubt that we are incapable of knowing everything.  Why, though, would someone (or something) have to know more?
 

There are some things you just can't blow off.  Like people growing back limbs and raising from the dead in Jesus name.  It's even been documented

You would need to supply credible documentation for any of us to give it reasonable consideration.  Try JAMA.  Anyone can set up a web page with a resurrection story.  Surprisingly, just 'cause it's on the Innernet don't make it true!

It is an all too common practice to shroud religious nonsense in a cloak of pseudoscience.  Have you thought about the many times that patients were revived after being clinically 'dead' where no prayers were said?  Hey...that rhymes!

[MikeyV]

That's one of the things that bothers me most about these "miracle" stories.

Notice that all of them say "The doctors and nurses or rescue technicians were working on me. Then, my pastor started to pray, and I got better, resurrected, grew a limb, changed sex, whatever. Praise be to Gawd!"

How well do you think they would have gotten if you took the medical professionals out of the picture? Probably not well at all. The "holy" man is just a noisy observer. I'm sick and tired of the invisible sky daddy and his corporeal representatives getting all the credit for the hard work of well trained professionals. It makes me sick.

As for growing back limbs, I call bullshit. If it's true, you need to tell Brain over at WWGHA. I'm sure he'd be more than a little Interested in a documented case...

Here's a good resurrection story. The child was dead for 7 hours, and was brought back, with no lasting negative effects. Notice what is conspicuously absent from the story. There are no "holy" men, mention of god, or mention of miracles. The doctors are given full credit, as they should be.

[McQ]

That's one of the things that bothers me most about these "miracle" stories.

Notice that all of them say "The doctors and nurses or rescue technicians were working on me. Then, my pastor started to pray, and I got better, resurrected, grew a limb, changed sex, whatever. Praise be to Gawd!"

How well do you think they would have gotten if you took the medical professionals out of the picture? Probably not well at all. The "holy" man is just a noisy observer. I'm sick and tired of the invisible sky daddy and his corporeal representatives getting all the credit for the hard work of well trained professionals. It makes me sick.

As for growing back limbs, I call bullshit. If it's true, you need to tell Brain over at WWGHA. I'm sure he'd be more than a little Interested in a documented case...

Here's a good resurrection story. The child was dead for 7 hours, and was brought back, with no lasting negative effects. Notice what is conspicuously absent from the story. There are no "holy" men, mention of god, or mention of miracles. The doctors are given full credit, as they should be.

Well said, Mikey. As for that last bit, the believers have a way around that. Somebody, somewhere, was praying for an unspecified miracle, and that's the one they got!  

[afreethinker30]

Prayer doesn't help
 
Results of a study of over 1800 participants with heart disease, randomly placed into one of three groups were released earlier this week. It is the largest study ever of it's kind. The groups into which heart disease patients were randomly placed are:

1) being told that people would pray for them and people actually praying
2) being told that people might pray for them and people actually praying
3) being told that people might pray for them and people didn't pray...

The study indicated that 59% of the people who were told that people would definitely pray died or their condition worsened, whereas groups 2 and 3 were about the same at just around 50%. So, this implies that people who knew others were praying for them and actually had those others praying for them did worse than those who weren't sure.

http://www.ahjonline.com/article/PII...06496/abstract