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Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 09:21:51 PM »
Satellites are actually spots on the celestial sphere made by powerful light sources powered by prehistoric gargantuan hamsters. The shape of the satellite is based on how the various sources are pointed, to make a pattern. The stars that appear to be moving are actually kids using laser pointers, sweeping them slowly across said sphere.

Gerbils not hamsters!!!
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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2019, 09:50:35 PM »
The flat earth brigade amuse me no end.  The lines of evidence they have to wilfully ignore in order hold to their "theory" are endless.  As a professional navigator in in a previous life I know from actual experience that charts (maps for all you land-lubbers) simply would not work the way they do if the world was not (more or less) spherical.  When navigating, you have to take into account the properties of the particular type of chart you are using, especially the inherent distortions built in to the particular projection you are using, or you will not end up where you intend to.  Each type of chart has its own peculiarities and its own best uses.  These, for me at least, are something that is embedded in my soul.  It's almost as if I can feel the way the curved surface of the Earth is represented on the flat surface of the chart.  The idea that the Earth is actually flat is a complete nonsense to me.

edit
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For some cartographical fun, look up the difference between the following projections (there are many others): Mercator's, Transverse Mercator's, Conic, Lambert's conic conformal, Polar

Reading about why flat Earthers become flat Earthers, I read over and over about how a spherical Earth and immense universe (possibly multiverse) made them feel small, insignificant, out of control and frightened.  Basically the idea of a flat Earth at the center of a tiny universe was comforting.  Small wonder to me so many flat Earthers are religious since the need for comfort is also the basis there.
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billy rubin

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2019, 10:16:44 PM »
flat earth satellites orbit above the flat earth in the same way that the sun doez, i think, with eccentricitiez added to account for peculiar epicyclez and such.



herez a better animation of spotlight sun, with some objections

http://www.nmsr.org/flatter.htm
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 10:35:39 PM by billy rubin »


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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2019, 10:58:14 PM »
yez.

the flat earth theory depends on several things, most unlikely is the necessity for a massive conspiracy to falsify photography and space flight and so on.

but what interests me is that most people accept theories completely on faith, but reject contradictory theoriez that are equally founded on faith.

i am not a navigator, but its easy to zee tbat the usual "proofs" of round earth theory tbat one sees prezented are complete nonsense, but are trotted out as if they were . . . holy writ.

for example, search google for "proofs that the earth is round" i did and have opened the first search rezult, a blind test:

https://www.google.com/amp/crosstalk.cell.com/blog/seven-ways-to-prove-earth-is-round%3fhs_amp=true

take the first three proofs of the seven presented.

1. watch a ship zail off to zea, if the flag zikz below the horizon last the earth is round. if you have ever actually done this, you will find that sometimes the ship sinkz below tbe horizon and sometimez it doesnt, based on temperature interfaces and refraction. the exceptions are generally ignored, which renders this method inconcluzive.
 
2. watch a lunar eclipse. they zay if the shadow is round, the earth is a sphere. except a flat earth shaped like a disc will also cast a round shadow, and a disc-earth is the common model.

3. climb a tree and you can see more earth than if you were on the ground. this is true. but i have never seen a tree tall enough to give a definitive answer about a spherical earth, and it neglects the disappearance of distant objects due to atmospheric haze. like many, this last proof is just a prediction from tbeory that nobody has ever done.

so just these first three pieces of ordinary evidence dont actually prove anything, as they are dezcribed in this very firzt search rezult.  but they are commonly held to be definitive.

1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.
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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2019, 11:27:47 PM »


hi bluenose.

i don't believe in a flat earth.

however:



1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

one contrary example falsifies the claim.

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2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

you are assuming a solar system that is inconsistent with the model. if i reject that assumption, the objection disappears.

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3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

good point, and i agree.  we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

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None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.

yes. i agree. but two of your three methods of proof don't prove anything. that's a 66 percent blind spot in this discussion, and is what my point is:

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.


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billy rubin

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2019, 11:54:08 PM »
i guess the last four are relevant.

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4. Travel through, or even within, different time zones
. . . In the event that you're not high enough, though, you can still experience the curvature of the earth another way. For example, if you were to fly all the way around the world, you'd find that it would be nighttime in part of the world and daytime in another part. In that way, the existence of time zones itself is proof that the Earth is round.

^^^spotlight sun accounts for this.

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5. Watch a sunset
Pick a nice spot from which you can watch a sunset (we'll call this point A). Ideally, you'd have a clear horizon in front of you, and behind you would be some sort of elevated point that you can quickly access (a hill, a building with at least two floors, or perhaps the aforementioned tree; we'll call this point B).

Watch the sunset from point A, and once the sun is out of sight, hurry on over to point B. With the added elevation provided by point B, you should be able to see the sun above the horizon. If Earth were flat, the sun would not be visible at any elevation once it had set. Because Earth is round, the sun will come back into your line of sight.

i am skeptical.

the sun subtemds 0.53 degrees. so it takes 1/720 of a day for it to set. thats 2 minutes. if i watch the sun set, and then run up a hill for one minute at the rate the sun sets-- which would expose half a solar diameter if the sun was stationaryr--, the top edge of the sun will be at the horizon, so i won't seeit. i am skeptical that i can run up a hill faster than the sun sets, but maybe i can. someone with better mathematics than me might figure this out.

 i suppose you might accompliish this with a high speed elevator, but i have never come across anyone who has tested it, including the author of this particular website.

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6. Measure shadows across the country
Pick two locations that are some distance apart (at least a couple hundred miles from each other and on the same meridian). Grab two sticks or dowels (or other objects) of equal length, two tape measures, and a friend. Each of you will take one stick/dowel/object and one tape measure to your location, stick the object into the ground, and measure the shadow. (For accuracy, you should both take your measurements at the same time of day.)

On a flat Earth, the shadow that is cast by each would be of the same length. However, if you and your friend compare notes, you'll find that one shadow was longer than the other. That's because, due to the curvature of Earth, the sun will hit one part of Earth at one angle and another part of Earth at a different angle even at the same time of day.

This experiment has been around since about 240 B.C., when Greek mathematician Eratosthenes compared the shadows cast in both Syene—now Aswan, Egypt—and Alexandria on the summer solstice. Eratosthenes had learned of a well in Syene where once a year on the summer solstice, the sun would illuminate the entire bottom of the well and tall buildings and other objects would not cast a shadow. However, he noticed that shadows were being cast on the summer solstice in Alexandria, so he measured the angle of the shadow and found it to be an angle of about 7.2°.

this last one is pure nonsense. shadows along the same meridian on a flat earth will vary in length just like on a round earth.

the author is also confused about eratosthenes as well. erastothenes didn't prove the earth to be round, he assumed it to be so that he could measure a circumference.

finally,

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7. Google "International Space Station photos"
Seriously, just look at some of the amazing photos you’ll find.

can't say anything about this. the only way for this to be false is the secret giant conspiracy.

but i think it's pretty clear that most people believe the earth to be round based on something other than direct evidence. out of these seven, some display an ignorance of flat earth theory, and some are just plain wrong.

many are proofs that could be done, but will not be done, because the flat earth skeptic has a belief system that is immune to the need for testing.


« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 02:15:11 PM by billy rubin »


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billy rubin

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2019, 04:18:28 PM »
wait here's the answer

lol



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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2019, 07:10:11 PM »
^^^  :snicker:

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2019, 09:32:56 PM »


hi bluenose.

i don't believe in a flat earth.


Oh, I understand that.  I assumed we were engaging in a discussion of the "proofs" posited by flat Earthers

Quote

however:



1 I served in the Royal Australian Navy and I observed other ships disappearing over the horizon on many occasions.  The refractive effects you describe are not particularly common and all they do is delay, slightly, the eventual disappearance.  They are entirely akin to mirages on a road on a hot day, although those look like pools of water, only a fool would use these mirages as proof that water is actually lying on the road.

one contrary example falsifies the claim.

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but what example falsifies which claim?

Quote

Quote
2.  If the earth was disc shaped, then only on some occasions would the shadow be circular, most occasions it would be an ellipse and sometime a line (when the earth is edge on).  However since the shadow is always a circle it is reasonable to conclude that the Earth is spherical (or close to it).

you are assuming a solar system that is inconsistent with the model. if i reject that assumption, the objection disappears.

Again, which model are you talking about?   I am talking about the solar system as it actually exists.

Quote

Quote
3. Except that instead of climbing a tree you could get in an aeroplane.  If the distance disappears because of haze why then is it possible to see for hundreds and even thousands of kilometres from a high flying aeroplane?  In the highest of all aeroplanes or even balloons like those used for the highest parachute jumps, you can actually see the curvature of the Earth.

good point, and i agree.  we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

Who knows, why do conspiracy theorists of any ilk claim the nonsense they do?

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Quote
None of your example stand up to close scrutiny.  You say you're not a navigator, this is obvious.  As I said before, compensating for the distortions of projecting the curved surface of the Earth onto a flat chart is one of the key problems that a navigator has to pay attention to in order to do their job.  I don't care what flat Earthers think  (they don't actually), the Earth is basically spherical.

yes. i agree. but two of your three methods of proof don't prove anything. that's a 66 percent blind spot in this discussion, and is what my point is:

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.

I did not claim to prove anything, I offered evidence.  Big difference.
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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2019, 10:01:23 PM »
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped. 

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2019, 10:23:56 PM »
hi bluenose

Maybe I'm a bit thick, but what example falsifies which claim?

in any assertion of the truth of a singular condition, if there are exceptions to the condition, it is not demonstrated to be true. you agree that ships do not always sink below the horizon as the simple model i quoted predicts. that is the example of an exception to the rule. therefore that simple model has been falsified.

regarding the round shadow on the moon during an eclipse:

Again, which model are you talking about?   I am talking about the solar system as it actually exists.

a flat earth can cast a round shadow. that's all i need to point out to refute the argument.

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we are also in agreement that the tree example is nonsense. why do people keep claiming that it proves something?

Who knows, why do conspiracy theorists of any ilk claim the nonsense they do?

yes. that is the point of our conversation.

Quote

most people believe in things that are not proven, whether it's science or religion.

I did not claim to prove anything, I offered evidence.  Big difference.

you offered evidence for the appearance of a round earth from an airplane, which is absolutely conclusive, in my opinion. but your evidence for the other two proofs was insufficient.

that's only one for three.


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billy rubin

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2019, 10:37:37 PM »
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped.

here's a common view of the equator on the flat earth, ecurb:



if i travel around the flat earth along the equator, i will return to the same place i started. this is the same for either a flat or a round earth.

one thing i've found that flat earthers won't talk about is to what happens when you calculate the distance between two points at the same latitude north of the equator with a distance between two points at the corresponding same latitude south of the equator. obviously rulers are longer as you go south.

that would be super easy to do, but nobody does.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 11:23:18 PM by billy rubin »


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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2019, 11:42:03 PM »
Get on a ship, follow the equator, going around continents as you meet them, and tell me where you end up.  It's round - or perhaps banana shaped.

here's a common view of the equator on the flat earth, ecurb:



if i travel around the flat earth along the equator, i will return to the same place i started. this is the same for either a flat or a round earth.

one thing i've found that flat earthers won't talk about is to what happens when you calculate the distance between two points at the same latitude north of the equator with a distance between two points at the corresponding same latitude south of the equator. obviously rulers are longer as you go south.

that would be super easy to do, but nobody does.

OK, then follow the International Dateline and go the other way.  You also end up at the same place, but not if it's a flat earth. 

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2019, 12:11:47 AM »
Bluenose referred to his experience when he observed other ships disappearing over the horizon. I cannot dispute that.  What was really happening is that those other ships were sailing off the edge of the flat earth.  ;D

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Re: Flat Earth Belief Growing Worldwide
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2019, 12:55:02 AM »
OK, then follow the International Dateline and go the other way.  You also end up at the same place, but not if it's a flat earth.

the international dateline just connects the north to the south pole. do you mean a meridian?



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