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Lying:

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2020, 09:07:28 AM »
mezcal for me


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Recusant

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #76 on: January 06, 2020, 08:27:58 PM »
there iz no such tbing as truth, or integrity either, siz, in the end. no medals, no self-satizfaction. no right, no wrong, no valid moral compass. no good, no evil.

nothing you or i do can change that.

the absurdity of the situation is that i chooze to live as if there were meaning. so an illusion of integrity, of treating people with truth, respect, and compazsion, is in the end a suit of clothes that i wear. it lets me fit in, even tbough i know it can be taken off, and many people do.

but i do it anyway, and on good dayz it even feelz like it might be real. treating other people as if tbey deserve rezpect is part of that.
So, you don't think any of it has any meaning, yet you still choose to inflict unnecessary grief on people for the sake of your emperors new clothes? You're a nasty piece of work, Bizzy.

You're well aware of the civility rule which has been a part of HAF since its inception. The staff of this site appreciate lively discussion while supporting the ethos which makes this place what it is (yeah, I know, describing it as a rather quiet backwater is aggrandizement, but there is life here and it has endured). As a po-faced auntie might say as she dishes up a large bowl of her revolting milk pudding, "You knew what you were going to get when you came to this house."

In view of the above, it looks like the only justification for a derogatory comment regarding a fellow member's character, particularly in the context of dick-waving over who's more of/really a nihilist, is self gratification. It would be appreciated if you find other ways to achieve that here.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Davin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #77 on: January 06, 2020, 09:14:28 PM »
This is an old thread, like a year and a half dead. I'll put in my opinion though.

The deliberate act of deviating from the truth.
That'll do as a definition, bullshitting is lying.
I also like the definition of "speaking with the intent to deceive." But I can live with what you're using.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
I don't accept the absolute that lying should never be done.
I cite the dementia patient who asks "when will my wife be here?"
Carer says later, even though the wife's long dead.
If the carer said she was dead, dementia guy'd be upset for hours.
Wouldn't know why after a while but still would be.
Same thing day after day until he died or the rot removed the memory.
But dementia guy isn't full faculty, this example doesn't satisfy for normal human interaction.
Fair point Green Me, so lying to children... [beard stroking smiley]
This is something I've dealt with personally with my grandfather on my mother's side and my great grandmother on my father's and his mother's side.

They do feel the emotions caused by a conversation for a time after they forget the part of the conversation that upset them. There is not much point in continually upsetting them, and it's bad for their health, to constantly be stressed out and feeling the loss of a loved one over and over again. That's a lot of harm to them. It's fine to not tell them the truth.

Lying to children, like everything else, depends on the lie and the effects of those lies.

My parents didn't lie to me about Santa Claus. I don't think that lying about Santa is that big of a deal, and actually can be used as a good learning experience for young skeptics. Not being lied to about Santa, in my opinion, didn't cause much harm or benefit. I think either way you go on this kind of lie to children is fine. Because when the jig is up, the parents concede the lie.

Lying to children about god however, I think that causes some harm. When parents speak with certainty about things they cannot be certain about does harm. And when the children question them and the jig is up, and the parents continue to lie to them, then I think that's much worse. It demonstrates to children that critical thinking and avoiding fallacious logic are not important things in life and that unquestioning faith is the way to go.

Jokes I think are also generally good lies as long as everyone is in on the joke at the end and no real harm is done.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
I avoid lying, I don't like doing it and it is a truism that it complicates things.

I don't often avoid lying. There are a lot of lies I tell that are perfectly fine. Some stranger asking "how are you?" is not genuinely interested in how I'm actually doing, so I simply say, "good, and you?" no matter how I'm doing. I think the intent behind both statements is important here and in general with determining if a lie is good, bad, neutral or anywhere in between.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
When someone lies to you, what do you think of the person?
How does it effect future interaction?
Depends on the lie. Like the above example, I don't give any shits. If it's something more serious, then my judgment would be more extreme. Like anything else, it depends on the harm and benefits of the intent and results.

Quote from: Bad Penny II
Anyway the subject is lying and Bill and Monica are welcome.
The question was, "are you having an affair with that woman?"

If the question was, "did you have an affair with that woman?" then I'd agree that he was lying, but since it wasn't, he was merely being sneakily honest.

That's where the whole, "it depends on what your definition of "is" is." came from. It's not a blunder. Is he having an affair? Not at the time the question was asked, the affair ended a long time before the question was asked. So if your definition of "is" is like everyone else's, then he was telling the truth, but if your definition of "is" is something like "currently and previously," then that would be something else.

And that wasn't even what the investigation was about, it was the GOP grasping at anything they could find.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Re: Lying:
« Reply #78 on: January 10, 2020, 12:33:18 AM »
Lying is natural and a part of nature. It's part of what makes the world of people work the way it does. Without it there cannot be a successful economy. Lying originates from the animal mentality, and when coupled to the cognitive process becomes understood and useful. In the animal world lying is a must for survival. Predators rely on it to fool their prey, for example, the leopard has spots to help conceal it from it's intents. The camouflage effect says---I'm not here which is a lie. The stealth the leopard uses is also a lie to deceive the target.  The universe has it's opposites---if there is truth then there must also be the lie. Without truth there can be no lie. Civilizations unwittingly create a system of lies in order to function. Without the lie-- there can be no civilization. Civilizations are founded on a predator (capitalism)premise, and a predator "must" depend on lying to survive. IE. There is truth in business, but at the same time how much more does business depend on the lie. Truth mixed with a lie is still a lie, because that's why the lie would be present, to produce the power of the lie over that part which is true, otherwise there's no sense in including the lie. Blah Blah and etc.
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2020, 07:48:03 PM »
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Davin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2020, 01:46:57 PM »
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
I mean, if you read more than the first sentence, you'd have a better idea about Old Seer's position. You see them further define things and would answer your question because more qualifications exist further on, implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2020, 08:55:03 PM »
i didn't catch that i.n hiz post, davin.

where do you see thiz?

Quote
,. . . implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Davin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #82 on: January 14, 2020, 01:58:41 PM »
i didn't catch that i.n hiz post, davin.

where do you see thiz?

Quote
,. . . implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad
If you look at the whole sentence, that answers your question.

Quote
You see them further define things and would answer your question because more qualifications exist further on, implying that one thing (like what is natural) is not enough of a measure for what is good and what is bad.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2020, 02:13:44 PM »
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Davin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2020, 04:46:10 PM »
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2020, 05:09:39 PM »
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.

 conversation is often pointless, davin. maybe with me more than most people.

what do you consider the defining differences between natural and unnatural?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Davin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2020, 06:08:48 PM »
okay.

do you think that what is natural is also what is good?
Odd wording, but Yes. I also think that what is natural is also what is bad. And also that what is natural is also what is is neutral. And many levels in between. I wouldn't use it as a sole justification for anything. But then that's why we write in multiple sentences to express what we mean. Which is also why taking one justification out of a list of them and focusing on it is kind of pointless.

 conversation is often pointless, davin. maybe with me more than most people.

what do you consider the defining differences between natural and unnatural?
I'm usually happy with the definitions of the words. Where are you trying to go with this? It seems like you're trying to pull the conversation a certain way and don't like the way I'm responding. So why not just skip the little games and get to your point?
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2020, 07:12:26 PM »
I'm usually happy with the definitions of the words. Where are you trying to go with this? It seems like you're trying to pull the conversation a certain way and don't like the way I'm responding. So why not just skip the little games and get to your point?

i think you read too much into what i say that isn't there, davin.

but not to worry. i was just checking.


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?

Re: Lying:
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2020, 02:21:34 AM »
Lying is natural and a part of nature.

deception is certainly natural.

but is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?
That's why ancient people's divided the human mind from the animal mind. So they would know the difference where-from harm originates. But, in civilization the animal mind is regulated to stay within certain bounds of behavior. This civil mindedness is referred to as human, but the ancients would dispute that claim,as human to them is a mental state (presence) devoid of the animal mind. While no one can be a person without the animal mentality it was put aside and not used in relationships with others. One cannot have a human mentality without it's opposite, just as there cannot be evil without good.

Civilization cannot create a human because "human" comes automatically when a person is formed within the brain. Along with human also comes the other. What confuses people is thinking intelligence is human, but not so. Intelligence is a neutral and can be applied to either of the the sets of characteristics. If people have an animal mental state , which we all have, then along with the forming of the person is also one's natural ability to lie. It has to be, otherwise one could not be a person, and one of the characteristics of person is---predator. 

Civilization creates the "artificial person". IOW- a person that is made according to predetermined mandates to belong to a specific society of rules and regulations to control behavior. In the natural state one is not under civilization remaining natural man as nature created the person to be. Add intelligence and one can understand the harmful effects one can have on others so one becomes self-regulated and not under the authority of any other. 

So, the artificial man needs to be a liar as needed to exist in a controlled society and prosper within it, because the first lie of the predator is that one is human, as all lies come after that.  The predator says, I'm not a predator just as the spots on the leopard say, I'm not here. The truth is demanded to be told to authority so they remain the power over, and one can lie to anyone else.

(See Black's Law Book- natural man/person, or artificial man)
The only thing possible the world needs saving from are the ones running it.
Oh lord, save us from those wanting to save us.
https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

billy rubin

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Re: Lying:
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2020, 12:44:59 PM »
so, is natural "good?"

that is, should we use what is natural as a measure of what we should pursue?


Into the distance a ribbon of black
Stretched to the point of no turning back
A flight of fancy on a windswept field
Standing alone my senses reeled
A fatal attraction is holding me fast how
How can I escape this irresistible grasp?