Apatheism

[Byronazriel]

Why must a god be supernatural?

Well, first, to be natural, something must either be matter or energy or else the result of matter or energy.  Space is the result of matter and energy.  Motion is likewise.  Gravity is what happens when matter comes near enough to other matter.

If something claimed to be a god, yet was matter or energy or the result of matter or energy, would you entertain the notion that the thing might be stating an honest and accurate fact?  If so, then OK, for you a god can be natural.  But what would make it a god?  Its relationship to man?

What wouldn't make it a god? I think we can both agree that Thor is a god, he comes from Asgard which is supernatural as it is not in midgard and he's really powerful and controls thunder and stuff. We might have differeing opinions on whether he exists, or if he is real... but again I think we can both agree he's a god.

That being said why wouldn't Zeus be a god? Zeus, accroding to Greek mythology lives on Mount Olympus.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

A physical god residing on Mount Olympus which is a place that you could actually visit, if you were so inclined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus

[Inevitable Droid]

What wouldn't make it a god? I think we can both agree that Thor is a god, he comes from Asgard which is supernatural as it is not in midgard and he's really powerful and controls thunder and stuff. We might have differeing opinions on whether he exists, or if he is real... but again I think we can both agree he's a god.

Yes.  He's a god because people worshipped him as such, and because he was of the race of beings who caused the Earth to be made in its present form.

So let me ask you, then - If some ancient being of power, made of matter and energy, was proven to have taken part in the making of Earth in its present form, and was worshipped by humans once they learned of him, would you consider him a god?

I wouldn't.  I would find him irresistibly interesting.  I would do everything I could to be able to interact with him.  But I would never view him as a god.  I would never worship him, or pray to him, or obey him.  For he would not have his dwelling at the center of my being.  He would not be my higher self.

You know, I had never followed that thought to its logical conclusion before.  It isn't transcendence that makes a god, for me.  It is immanence.

That being said why wouldn't Zeus be a god? Zeus, accroding to Greek mythology lives on Mount Olympus.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

A physical god residing on Mount Olympus which is a place that you could actually visit, if you were so inclined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Olympus

Yes, but previously you had said this:

The ancient Greeks believed that their gods lived on Mount Olympus, and that if they were bold enough they could go visit them.

Do you have any evidence of the Greeks actually believing that if they climbed Mount Olympus they could meet their gods face to face?

[Inevitable Droid]

Albeit with regard to the Deist's God I remain agnostic and apathetic, I've decided there's something more important that I stand for.  With regard to theistic creeds, I am neither agnostic nor apathetic, as I declare them false and I declare them dangerous.  Accordingly, I have changed my worldview designation to Anticreed.

[Inevitable Droid]

Accordingly, I have changed my worldview designation to Anticreed.

And now I've changed it again to AntiAbrahamist, after pondering a reaction by Magic Pudding.  I'm really not AntiHindu or AntiAsatru.  Those creeds are logically consistent, internally, and their adherents don't seek global hegemony for their creeds.

[TheJackel]

A god, being supernatural. is literally outlandish in the sense of being external to the land - all land, every land, everywhere.  A supernatural being belongs nowhere, is at home nowhere, as even space itself is natural.

I don't think you really grasp your own conceptual ideas.. Right here, you have just stated that a GOD exists "Nowhere" or in a magical place of nowhere.. Nowhere doesn't exist and can not be a place of existence or a "SOMEWHERE". I think you are fishing for some level of ignorance in order to create the idea a god can exist in the state and place of non-existence so you don't have to be bound to explaining how the container to said supposed theoretical deity was created so itself can exist and have a place to exist like everything else does. It seems like you are tying to get around that obvious quagmire in order to suggest something could create existence from a place and state of non-existence. Sorry, but that is far more outlandish than the concept of a time and dimensional traveling alien species!.

And for the record.. It is impossible for any mind or deity to be a literal creator because all minds can only be observers, processors, and manipulators of what already exists. And that is because they are equally bound to requiring all those things in order to exist themselves. Hence you could say I created this post, but in reality I could only creatively manipulate what already exists into this very post you see before you. I require information, material physicality, substance, matter, energy, ability, awareness, observability, and ability to process of all of the above to which I, nore any other conscious entity could ever design and create into existence. Even a deity is slave to require something as simple as information in order to even know that itself exists.  And this all includes a place to exist in. It's like try replying to this post without material physicality, matter, energy, or replying from a state of nothing, being made of nothing, or non-existence.

Gods are logical fallacies because all things can be considered "creators" whether or not they are sentient or simply grains of sand that blow in the wind to create sand dunes. So either all things are GODS or there are no such things as GODS. And lets not forget that GOD is merely subjective in regards to the fact that its only a label of entitlement to which is strictly reliant on something to label it as such. Hence what is power or a GOD without someone to worship it and call it as such?

[Inevitable Droid]

I don't think you really grasp your own conceptual ideas.. Right here, you have just stated that a GOD exists "Nowhere" or in a magical place of nowhere.. Nowhere doesn't exist and can not be a place of existence or a "SOMEWHERE".

I never claimed that nowhere exists, nor that it is a place of any kind, nor that it is somewhere.  I merely claimed that if God exists, it exists outside of space.  I guess the word outside was ill chosen.  I meant it in the sense of aside from, rather than external to - as in, "She has no interests outside of work."  Interests outside of work would be interests aside from work, independent of it, such that, work would be irrelevant to these interests.  Similarly, if God exists, it exists outside of space, meaning that space would be irrelevant to God's existence.  This would mean that the existence of the Creator is different in kind from the existence of creatures, since space is fundamental to the existence of creatures.  I'm not claiming that such a mode of existence is real or even can be, but merely that I don't know if it is or if it can be.  For me to claim otherwise would be to claim that the limits of my own experience equate to the limits of reality, that reality cannot transcend what I have experienced.  Since reality is the source of my experience, rather than vice versa, I would argue that while my experience cannot transcend reality, reality could at least theoretically transcend my experience.  This concept is reminiscent of the karate master who mops up the dojo with his top student and then says, "I taught you everything you know - not everything I know."

[TheJackel]

it exists outside of space.

Same thing as claiming something exists in a place of nowhere :cool:

However, here is a funny thing to ponder. Who created the container to this theoretical existence, or it's existence. The funny thing about reality is that no matter what reality you find yourself contained in, it could never fully be explained in terms of origins. A supposed god would be sitting in the same quagmire we find ourselves in . But the simple answer is no creation to existence because non-existence doesn't exist and can not exist, literally. The opposite is simply impossible!  So the answer is much simpler than GOD, or creation.

[Inevitable Droid]

If you want to suggest the possibility of higher entities in other dimensional capacities that could have constructed or even accidentally created our observable universe, I wouldn't have a problem with that possibility.

What do you mean by "other dimensional capacities"?  A different space from the space you and I exist in?  Or do you mean the same space that you and I exist in, but this space would be more complex than height, width, and depth, it would have added dimensions we can't see, and somehow, in those dimensions, higher entities might exist?  I could go with either of those possibilities as applying to the alleged existence of an alleged Creator.  Either of those would be unknowable to me, and so I would remain agnostic toward any Creator.

[TheJackel]

If you want to suggest the possibility of higher entities in other dimensional capacities that could have constructed or even accidentally created our observable universe, I wouldn't have a problem with that possibility.

What do you mean by "other dimensional capacities"?  A different space from the space you and I exist in?  Or do you mean the same space that you and I exist in, but this space would be more complex than height, width, and depth, it would have added dimensions we can't see, and somehow, in those dimensions, higher entities might exist?  I could go with either of those possibilities as applying to the alleged existence of an alleged Creator.  Either of those would be unknowable to me, and so I would remain agnostic toward any Creator.

The point is, there has to be capacity, or the volume to which contains all other things within it, and where all things in that volume are made from the same substance of that volume (the human body is 99.7% space for example). Space is considered an infinite volume because it can't exist in a literal negative capacity, nor can anything exist without it. There is no "outside of space" because that is literally impossible. And that is especially true in regards to claiming an entity would exist in X-place. Added dimensions would still have height weight and depth. It's like the infinite hotel analogy with infinite number of rooms. We basically occupy a specific room under the concept of multi-universes to where there are universes outside our own observable universe if you believe in the multi-universe concept.  For example:

4D<--- 3D<--- 2D<--- 1D<--- 0D ---> 1D---> 2D---> 3D---> 4D

here we have two universes next to each other to where both can be considered infinite. 0D = ground state or the fabric between both dimensional universes with positive capacity in different directions. 0D in my example above is actually represented as 1 dimensional object within string theory as the very base of the fabric of existence. What makes both infinite is the concept to where each dimension is represented as a number with an infinite number of other numbers between each dimension.

1D.xxxxxxxx to 2D.xxxxxxxxxxx 3D.xxxxxxxxxx 4D.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So we can say that the first dimension is as infinitely large as the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th.. But no dimension or form of existence could have - dimensional value or capacity. Hence there can not exist a -2 dimensional capacity or space. And for anything to exist, it must have the capacity to exist and exist in.

So a GOD can not be a -2D object for example.. It must have dimensional complexity, substance, and a place to exist. It is bound to the rules of existence as much as we are because things can not exist with attributes defined by non-existence, nothing, non, or no. So non-material would mean not made of anything and is thus suggested to be made of nothing, and this is just as impossible as saying something could exist outside of the capacity to exist.

Infinity is probably the most difficult concept to understand, and I don't even fully grasp it..... YET!

1) Where is a GOD located?
2) What contains him?
3) What is a god made of?
4) How complex is a GOD over zero base complexity or ground state?

[Inevitable Droid]

Added dimensions would still have height weight and depth. It's like the infinite hotel analogy with infinite number of rooms. We basically occupy a specific room under the concept of multi-universes to where there are universes outside our own observable universe if you believe in the multi-universe concept.  For example:

4D<--- 3D<--- 2D<--- 1D<--- 0D ---> 1D---> 2D---> 3D---> 4D

here we have two universes next to each other to where both can be considered infinite. 0D = ground state or the fabric between both dimensional universes with positive capacity in different directions.

Thus in a multiverse model of reality, God would exist in the Godverse, defined as the universe where God exists, a different universe from the one where you and I exist.  OK.  I can buy that as a working assumption for a hypothetical God.  Being in a different universe, God would be unknowable to me, and so I remain agnostic toward it.

[TheJackel]

Added dimensions would still have height weight and depth. It's like the infinite hotel analogy with infinite number of rooms. We basically occupy a specific room under the concept of multi-universes to where there are universes outside our own observable universe if you believe in the multi-universe concept.  For example:

4D<--- 3D<--- 2D<--- 1D<--- 0D ---> 1D---> 2D---> 3D---> 4D

here we have two universes next to each other to where both can be considered infinite. 0D = ground state or the fabric between both dimensional universes with positive capacity in different directions.

Thus in a multiverse model of reality, God would exist in the Godverse, defined as the universe where God exists, a different universe from the one where you and I exist.  OK.  I can buy that as a working assumption for a hypothetical God.  Being in a different universe, God would be unknowable to me, and so I remain agnostic toward it.

Yes, it's just a matter of opinion at that point whether or not you consider said something or entity as a GOD.. Under these rules anything can be labeled as a God, and that includes you since for all you know something could be worshiping you as such.

[Inevitable Droid]

Hence, are we just a elementary particle in a much larger universe or reality? Is our Universe merely a living cell in a much larger living organism within an much larger coe-existing universe? After all, we are 99.7 percent empty space ourselves..

Our universe as a living cell would require at the highest macro level a complex order that isn't there, but our universe as a molecule, with galaxies as atoms and stars as electrons, is an image I've always intuitively liked.  Not that we can do anything with it.  It's just fun.

And that brings me to a point I'd like to make.  Religion can be engaged in for the fun of it.  The Abrahamists want religion to be a deadly serious matter worth killing and dying for, but it doesn't have to be that.  I happen to enjoy the Norse myths.  Accordingly, I could do Asatru or Odinism as a kind of role playing game, and if I did, I suspect I could get all sorts of good things out of it, even beyond sheer enjoyment.  The whole thing would become real enough to be edifying on a variety of levels.  I could enjoy taking part in a Superman religion.  Practitioners would wish Superman was real but would know he isn't, and in the wish would find meaning, in their quest to manifest the Superman ideal, using their non-super powers for the survival of all.

[Byronazriel]

Religion without theism is very doable, and definately not unheard of. Take Jediism for example, though I suppose some of them might deify the Force it tends to be more spiritual/philisophical.

A working religion could very well be centred on Superman, if it hasn't already.