http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/mitt-romneys-high-school-hijinks-do-they-matter/2012/05/10/gIQANt8nFU_blog.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/mitt-romneys-high-school-hijinks-do-they-matter/2012/05/10/gIQANt8nFU_blog.html)
QuoteFormer Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney apologized this morning for "hijinks" during his high school years at a prep school in Michigan, an admission that came just hours after the Washington Post reported of his involvement in an episode in which a student was held down and his hair was cut by the presidential candidate
"I participated in a lot of hijinks and pranks during high school and some might have gone too far and for that, I apologize," Romney told radio host Brian Kilmeade this morning. As far the specific allegation regarding cutting the boy's hair, Romney said: "I don't remember that incident."
Republican presidential candidate former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, gestures as he speaks to supporters at Oklahoma state Republican Party Headquarters in Oklahoma City, Wednesday, May 9, 2012.(AP Photo/Sue Ogrocki)Romney's acknowledgment of his behavior in high school so soon after his campaign issued something close to a denial in the Post story, which included a series of on-the-record retellings from others who participated, is a recognition on behalf of the campaign that prolonging this story would be detrimental to him and his chances this fall.
It also raises a larger question, however. Is how a person running for president acted more than four decades ago relevant to who they are today — and what they might be like as president?
In this particular case, how you come down on that issue is largely dependent on which partisan hat you wear. (Is there actually such a thing as a "partisan hat"? If so, where do you buy them? And does Nigel Tufnel sell them?)
Democrats quickly moved to cast the incident as a window into Romney's soul. Tweeted Democratic National Committee Chairman Brad Woodhouse:
.@MittRomney was intolerant in 1965, assaulting a presumed homosexual with scissors, and he's intolerant today opposing civil unions and SSM
— Brad Woodhouse (@woodhouseb) May 10, 2012
Republicans sought to dismiss the story as entirely irrelevant. Jim Geraghty of the National Review offered a common take via Twitter:
In light of the Post's story, I just don't think I can bring myself to vote for the 17-year-old Mitt Romney for president.
— jimgeraghty (@jimgeraghty) May 10, 2012
Curt Anderson, a Republican consultant, called the focvus on Romney's high school antics "beyond absurd", adding: "I hear that Teddy Roosevelt gave someone a wedgie in middle school."
Romney, too, tried to play the it-was-a-long-time-ago card in his radio interview. "As to the teasing or the taunts that go on in high school, that's a long time ago," said Romney. "For me, that's about 48 years ago."
The reality of the current way in which we pick presidents is that virtually everything you have done in your life is fair game. (Is that the right way to do things? That's a different blog post.)
Go back through the last several presidential elections — or even the last several months of this race — and you see evidence of that fact.
Republicans sought to make an issue of the fact that President Obama wrote in his memoir that he had eaten dog as a child in Indonesia. His past drug use is also been fodder for the political gossip mill. John McCain regularly used his time at the Naval Academy to illustrate his maverick nature. Days before the 2004 election, the fact that George W. Bush had been arrested in 1976 for drunk driving in Maine came out. (Bush acknowledged the arrest shortly after the news broke.)
Running for president in this age of information overload, Twitter and the 24-hour cable news cycle has been described as a full body scan that reveals your soul. We agree with that assessment.
Remember too that people vote for president in a way that they vote for nothing else; the vote for president is heavily personality dependent — it's far more about who you are than what policy positions you have staked out. Given that, what you have done throughout your life does matter.
Of course, it is possible that experiences in your younger life change you in some meaningful and important way. Romney said as much this morning; "I'm a very different person than I was in high school, of course, but I'm glad that I learned as much as I did during those high school years," Romney said this morning. "I'm quite a different guy. I'm married, have five sons, five daughters-in-law, and now 18 grandchildren." (Personal sidebar: The Fix was a very different person in high school — less confident, meaner, more petty — than we are today. Time can change things.)
We won't know whether or not how Romney acted in high school — and it now seems that he went beyond simple pranks to what looks a lot like bullying — matters to voters until November. (And we may not even know then.)
But, the quickness of Romney's apology is a signal that his campaign recognizes the potential political peril in an extended litigation of what he did or didn't do in high school.
What do you think? "Window into his bullying little soul", or "Boys will be boys; that was 40 years ago for chrissakes."
There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
Isolated incidents in childhood can have deep and long lasting effects on a person. I can attest to that. This is a very difficult question to answer and one that goes to the core of what one can really ever know about any other person. We are all a unique combination of genes and memes mixed and blended by experiences. What we are at 17 is going to be different from what we are at 30.
Personally I look for consistency of recent behaviour to assess whether a person is reliable and to deduce what their current character is like. What is damaging to Romney is the fact that he initially denied the incident. That tells me he either has a poor memory or is a liar. The former is a poor characteristic in a president the later is critical. But to be a bad liar and not knowing when/how to lie are poor qualities in a leader. A President who couldn't lie effectively would be a complete liability. But effectively means as little as possible and only when it really matters. A bluff is a lie and brinkmanship a critical skill for the person in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth.
I perceive Obarma as a person that if he had no need to lie he never would. I perceive Romney, because he claims to be a theist, as a self deluding individual. He either lies to himself to maintain his delusion or he is truly delusional.
So I don't think there is a sound-bite answer to a question that plumbs the depths of human nature.
If its true I think the person who was bullied should use this opportunity to get as much revenge as they can.
My answer is similar to part of Tank's - I believe that we are typically different at different stages in our lives, and that watching for consistent recent behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. How you are now and how you've been for some time is most likely how you will be, in at least the immediate future. I wouldn't necessarily judge someone by how they were in grade school, unless they were still showing similar traits now.
I can't think of anyone I know who hasn't screwed something up in their youth or young adulthood. It's what young people do -- some of us do worse things than others, but we all mess up. If we were all judged by events that happened several years ago in order to get a decent job, I suspect nearly all of us would be unemployed. I do understand that the position of President holds considerably more weight than any other job, but at the same time, I'd be a lot more concerned what a presidential candidate's been like (in terms of their positions and policies) for the last, say, 5 to 10 years -- recent history.
I don't know enough about Romney to comment on him personally, though.... but I'd say we all have 'skeletons in the closet'. In his teenaged years, Barack Obama used alcohol, marijuana and other hard drugs, apparently. I'm sure all presidents and world leaders made mistakes in their youth.
The real issue here isn't his behavior fifty years ago and the mistakes he made at the time. What is important is whether he acknowleges that the incident took place, and is able to give a compelling account of how he has grown as a person since then. I have done awful, simply awful things to people in the past. Now I know not only that they were wrong, but why they were wrong and I have the integrity to speak out against similar actions on the behalf of those individuals who are targeted.
I do not expect a president to be a saint, however I do expect them to own up to their past, for better or worse. The fact that the incident occoured several decades is not as important as the intervening time and the personal growth from bully to decent human being.
Quote from: jumbojak on May 12, 2012, 10:30:39 PM
The real issue here isn't his behavior fifty years ago and the mistakes he made at the time. What is important is whether he acknowleges that the incident took place, and is able to give a compelling account of how he has grown as a person since then. I have done awful, simply awful things to people in the past. Now I know not only that they were wrong, but why they were wrong and I have the integrity to speak out against similar actions on the behalf of those individuals who are targeted.
I do not expect a president to be a saint, however I do expect them to own up to their past, for better or worse. The fact that the incident occoured several decades is not as important as the intervening time and the personal growth from bully to decent human being.
Well said.
Christmas 2010 I was a Christian. It wasn't much over a year ago I started coming in here. I don't think it's any more fair to hold the bully thing over on Romney than to hold many of my former views and beliefs on me. Our last three presidents have used drugs (two snorted coke, 1 didn't inhale). It's in the past.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 11, 2012, 12:57:39 AM
There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
I sort of disagree. If someone is the kind of person to hide the tininess of their penis behind the enormity of their muscles and/or the badness of their attitude, how would they be smart enough to grow out of it?
Quote from: Ali on May 10, 2012, 11:17:30 PM
What do you think? "Window into his bullying little soul", or "Boys will be boys; that was 40 years ago for chrissakes."
Most kids do stupid and often cruel things, I've got emotional scars myself left over from childhood and I know I inflicted a few as well. The thing that concerns me is whether the adult is doing stupid and/or cruel things, which in my mind is where Romney fails the test. This business about what he did in high school and if he's sufficiently (or at least publicly) abashed about it now is just a distraction from real issues.
Quote from: Asmodean on May 12, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 11, 2012, 12:57:39 AM
There are so many relevant things to attack the man on. But I don't think bullying as a child means much in adulthood. Most people grow out of it when they age and realize how big an asshole they were in their youth. That's not to say he isn't a douche, I'm just not exactly sure why this is news.
I sort of disagree. If someone is the kind of person to hide the tininess of their penis behind the enormity of their muscles and/or the badness of their attitude, how would they be smart enough to grow out of it?
I simply know quite a few people who were bullies in high school but after maturing they realized the error of their ways, and in some cases apologized. I was both bullied and a bully in primary and secondary school. For me it was a defense mechanism, not that I think it is a valid defense. But if there was another target, the target wouldn't be me. Although I was never physically violent, I was still an ass. Granted some of the bullies I grew up with now simply bully people in their offices. Some never change, but many do, at least from personal experience.
Charles Blow of the NY Times had an interesting opinion piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/12/opinion/blow-mean-boys.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=charles%20blow&st=Search) about this which helps capture how I feel.
The problem is not so much that he did this as a kid; yes, this happened in his youth, and perhaps he can be forgiven somewhat for that. But does anyone seriously believe that he doesn't remember the incident, like he claimed? He basically laughed it off like it was no big deal, which it certainly was not. If he had offered some sort of sincere apology and used this as an opportunity to talk about the horrible effects such bullying have on teenagers, then I would have had some more respect for the man. Instead, he tried to pretend he didn't remember, when he clearly did, and offered up some sort of half-assed apology. I call foul.
Quote from: Firebird on May 14, 2012, 05:24:07 AM
Charles Blow of the NY Times had an interesting opinion piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/12/opinion/blow-mean-boys.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=charles%20blow&st=Search) about this which helps capture how I feel.
The problem is not so much that he did this as a kid; yes, this happened in his youth, and perhaps he can be forgiven somewhat for that. But does anyone seriously believe that he doesn't remember the incident, like he claimed? He basically laughed it off like it was no big deal, which it certainly was not. If he had offered some sort of sincere apology and used this as an opportunity to talk about the horrible effects such bullying have on teenagers, then I would have had some more respect for the man. Instead, he tried to pretend he didn't remember, when he clearly did, and offered up some sort of half-assed apology. I call foul.
:) All politicians find memory lapses convenient. It helps them never have to actually live up to and make good on most of their campaign promises. ;)
I don't like bullies. Yes we all made mistakes as kids, but to me there is a difference between smoking pot and beating up on people. Many (all?) of my friends grew up without bullying people.
That said, it is possible to change, grow and learn. Sounds like ThinkAnarchy did so. Not so much Mitt. I take this incident as a warning sign, even if it is 50 years old.
Quote from: technolud on May 14, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I don't like bullies. Yes we all made mistakes as kids, but to me there is a difference between smoking pot and beating up on people. Many (all?) of my friends grew up without bullying people.
That said, it is possible to change, grow and learn. Sounds like ThinkAnarchy did so. Not so much Mitt. I take this incident as a warning sign, even if it is 50 years old.
This is kind of how I feel about it. Maybe it's because I especially dislike bullies. Maybe it's because I especially dislike the GOP. ;D But I can't help but wonder, added in with the casual denial, added in with the story about the dog on the roof of the car, if maybe this isn't so much of a worrying action as a worrying personality trait.
Quote from: technolud on May 14, 2012, 11:03:39 AM
I don't like bullies. Yes we all made mistakes as kids, but to me there is a difference between smoking pot and beating up on people. Many (all?) of my friends grew up without bullying people.
That said, it is possible to change, grow and learn. Sounds like ThinkAnarchy did so. Not so much Mitt. I take this incident as a warning sign, even if it is 50 years old.
I agree. The whole "past is the past " and " kids will be kids" is not a valid defense.
Let's stop actig ike being a bully or getting bullied is a normal thing. It's horrific. And it needs to be stopped. Whether it's the parents' faults or something else.
^^^
I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning bullying. It is a normal thing however. A sad reality, but a reality none the less.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 15, 2012, 03:22:18 AM
^^^
I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning bullying. It is a normal thing however. A sad reality, but a reality none the less.
At least people are finally being held responsible in the recent years.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 05:12:49 AM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 15, 2012, 03:22:18 AM
^^^
I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning bullying. It is a normal thing however. A sad reality, but a reality none the less.
At least people are finally being held responsible in the recent years.
Except for when those terrible laws get passed that force school districts to remain 'neutral' on the homosexuality issue (or not speak of it). In those cases the bullies have free reign and no punishment.
Every time I hear about bullying I just can't help but think of this (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202). I have rarely ever felt the level of disgust I felt when I read that.
Quote from: Radiant on May 15, 2012, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 05:12:49 AM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 15, 2012, 03:22:18 AM
^^^
I don't think anyone in this thread is condoning bullying. It is a normal thing however. A sad reality, but a reality none the less.
At least people are finally being held responsible in the recent years.
Except for when those terrible laws get passed that force school districts to remain 'neutral' on the homosexuality issue (or not speak of it). In those cases the bullies have free reign and no punishment.
Every time I hear about bullying I just can't help but think of this (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/one-towns-war-on-gay-teens-20120202). I have rarely ever felt the level of disgust I felt when I read that.
Yes, those stories are very sad and there are many more like them. I did a quick google search to try and find a few that weren't as a result of being gay, but on the first half page of results couldn't find any. I find it kind of annoying. I'm certain suicide as a result of bullying isn't limited to the homosexual community alone. Why when I search, all the news articles are about gay children committing suicide?
I tried searching for suicide statistics, but the groups aren't broken up by sexual preference, so they were of little help. I did find this article though.
http://www.livescience.com/8734-gay-teen-suicide-epidemic.html
It simply annoys me. The problem is not gay teens being bullied and committing suicide. The problem are teens being bullied for what ever reason and committing suicide.
This isn't an attack on you, it likely would have been hard to find a suicide story that didn't involve a gay child. The narrow minded reporting by the media annoys the hell out of me though.
With that said, in the article you posted, the town seems to have a serious problem with this particular type of bullying, but that is a localized problem. It's sensational, sure, but doesn't exactly explain why nationally, the only suicide articles that gain traction are of gay youths. I'm not saying it isn't a problem that should be handled, but other situations of teen bullying should be discussed as well. It isn't simply a gay/straight problem, that is all I'm saying. "4 of the 9 were gay or perceived gay," which suggests it isn't simply such a narrow problem there as well. I didn't read the full 5 pages, so it's possible I missed something important.
Everyone has a gay friend or loved one. There is absolutely no.need for this level.of bullying , or intolerance and ignorance!!!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 16, 2012, 02:17:31 AM
Everyone has a gay friend or loved one. There is absolutely no.need for this level.of bullying , or intolerance and ignorance!!!
I agree, but based on the three exclamation points, I think you may have missed the point of my last post... ??? Perhaps the exclamation points are simply because homosexual bullying hits close to home for you while generic bullying doesn't.
Added: Or that may not have been in relation to my post. :)
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 16, 2012, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 16, 2012, 02:17:31 AM
Everyone has a gay friend or loved one. There is absolutely no.need for this level.of bullying , or intolerance and ignorance!!!
I agree, but based on the three exclamation points, I think you may have missed the point of my last post... ??? Perhaps the exclamation points are simply because homosexual bullying hits close to home for you while generic bullying doesn't.
Bullying in general is one of my personal issues. Being in the education field, I've sat on anti-bullying committees before, took part in 'wear pink on anti bullying day' awareness activities, worked with others to create 'safe space' classrooms during the lunch hour where bullied kids could come every day and eat in peace without fear of being harassed, etc etc. I've seen bullying at its worst, and while I've seen gay students being bullied, I've seen plenty get bullied because they had special needs, were a certain colour, or religion, or height, or weight. All bullying is unacceptable.
What makes it worse is that while kids are in schools, they have a certain level of protection and recourse -- there are safe adults to go talk to, safe places to go, etc. Out in the 'real world' away from school, bullies sometimes grow into adults who bully, and they take these habits into their workplaces, marriages, and neighborhoods. And there's generally no safety net any longer for those getting bullied, not until it comes to physical blows. >:(
Anyways, I think all of this is going outside the scope of the original thread about Romney, so I'll attempt to bring it back to him: I don't think it's wise to judge someone on their gradeschool actions, but if it's true that he denied remembering them, and then offered only a halfhearted apology, that's a HUGE problem right there. He may have lost himself the votes of a LOT of teachers, parents of bullied kids, and tons of people in the education field in general, not to mention those in the medical field who help patch up people who have been badly bullied or otherwise harmed. Shame he didn't take the opportunity to really address the issue. I hope at some point in the future, he chooses to.
TA:
There has been more attention to cases of gay teens committing suicide recently, but you have to keep it in context. Before Dan Savage's "It Gets Better" campaign, people were far too ignorant about the abuse gay teens go through, and they're only now beginning to explore this in popular media, sadly. Not to mention high-profile cases like the Tyler Clementi case at Rutgers.
That being said, there have indeed been some high-profile cases of teen suicide over bullying that were not related to homosexuality. For example, Phoebe Prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Phoebe_Princel), which was all over the news in MA, or Amanda Cummings (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/staten_island/bullied_teen_suicide_nq1HBAUkyUXDyaJX1mrUbI) more recently.
^^^
Ok, I was simply going off the google results I was getting. I knew I had read some in the past, but couldn't remember enough information to find any of them.
Sorry for the slight derail, but The Office did a fairly funny scene with "It gets better." The rest of the office kept interrupting, and not really backing up the whole idea of it getting much better. I agree that people should be encouraged to accept homosexuals and not bully them. I still think the bigger message should be to simply not bully though. I am glad the media does report on other cases as well though.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 16, 2012, 02:40:47 AM
^^^
Ok, I was simply going off the google results I was getting. I knew I had read some in the past, but couldn't remember enough information to find any of them.
Sorry for the slight derail, but The Office did a fairly funny scene with "It gets better." The rest of the office kept interrupting, and not really backing up the whole idea of it getting much better. I agree that people should be encouraged to accept homosexuals and not bully them. I still think the bigger message should be to simply not bully though. I am glad the media does report on other cases as well though.
One of my students told me the other day that while she was in highschool, all the kids were very aware of the issues gay kids have who are bullied, and they paid close attention to and defended any gay student who was teased or harassed. Meanwhile, she was shoved into lockers and her hijab was pulled violently off her head just because she was Muslim, and nobody stood up to help her. I felt so bad for her. This wasn't a North American school, it was in Europe. So I see the awareness is slowly becoming global, but it's a limited awareness. We need to put an end to bullying in general. Not just one sort. It's becoming popular in the media and in politics to speak often of gay students who are bullied, but we need to talk about bullying itself, as well. So many people fall through the cracks when they're in a group that isn't currently popular.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 16, 2012, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 16, 2012, 02:17:31 AM
Everyone has a gay friend or loved one. There is absolutely no.need for this level.of bullying , or intolerance and ignorance!!!
I agree, but based on the three exclamation points, I think you may have missed the point of my last post... ??? Perhaps the exclamation points are simply because homosexual bullying hits close to home for you while generic bullying doesn't.
Added: Or that may not have been in relation to my post. :)
No, no xD it wasnt in response to you. Lol
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on May 16, 2012, 02:40:47 AM
I still think the bigger message should be to simply not bully though. I am glad the media does report on other cases as well though.
Agreed. I think your point was valid.