I was reading Mary Oliver's Long Life, and came across this in the essay Habits, Differences and the Light that Abides:
Men and women of faith who pray -- that is, who come to a certain assigned place, at definite times, and are not abashed to go down on their knees -- will not tarry for the cup of coffee or the newsbreak or the end of the movie when the moment arrives. The habit, then, has become their life. What some might call the restrictions of the daily office they find to be an opportunity to foster the inner life. The hours are appointed and named; they are the Lord's. Life's fretfulness is transcended. The different and the novel are sweet, but regularity and repetition are also teachers. Divine attentiveness cannot be kept casually, or visited only in season, like Venice or Switzerland. Or, perhaps it can, but then how attentive is it? And if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely?
I was wondering what the religious might make of this. It raises a number of questions for me, but the main one is the idea that ceremony and such are required for a moral life, which strikes me very odd.
I'm certainly not as disciplined about prayer as the author apparently was. For me it's more a matter of when it happens, it happens. I don't really see the connection between ceremony and morality, but that was an insight that perhaps she had about herself, and then projected it onto others. Perhaps "ceremony" for her is simply an elevation of particular habits, and she feels that her time of communion with God in prayer is an integral part of her life that gives her the strength to live morally. I suppose that habits and morality can be connected at some level.
Well, she is a poet and given to poetic turns of speech. I'm thinking I may simply be missing the point because I've always found poetry hard to understand.
I think it's more about the "connectedness" and comforting sense that those sorts of habits evoke. When I used to pray daily (once upon a time) there was something a bit therapeutic about quiet, repetitious thinking/talking time.
Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. :D
About a year ago my brother started meditating twice a day, for 20 minutes each time, and he absolutely swears by it. It seems to me that this is at least similar to what Oliver was writing about with the regularly set times for prayer, perhaps the discipline of it predisposing the mind to do whatever it does during prayer or meditation. Like Pavlov's dogs salivating for a bell. I don't mean that dismissively, I just couldn't think of a better example. On the other hand, leaving room for some spontaneity would keep ritual from turning rote and being something you just mumbled your way thru mindlessly, the way I used to repeat the pledge of allegiance every morning as a kid.
Still puzzled about the ceremony/morals connection.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 11, 2012, 04:47:24 AM
Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. :D
"Good night, DeeDee, see you in the morning." I wonder if there's any sort of morality being engendered in saying that every night?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 11, 2012, 06:37:30 AM
About a year ago my brother started meditating twice a day, for 20 minutes each time, and he absolutely swears by it. It seems to me that this is at least similar to what Oliver was writing about with the regularly set times for prayer, perhaps the discipline of it predisposing the mind to do whatever it does during prayer or meditation. Like Pavlov's dogs salivating for a bell. I don't mean that dismissively, I just couldn't think of a better example. On the other hand, leaving room for some spontaneity would keep ritual from turning rote and being something you just mumbled your way thru mindlessly, the way I used to repeat the pledge of allegiance every morning as a kid.
Still puzzled about the ceremony/morals connection.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 11, 2012, 04:47:24 AM
Now I just say goodnight to my cats every evening and it achieves pretty much the same result. :D
"Good night, DeeDee, see you in the morning." I wonder if there's any sort of morality being engendered in saying that every night?
I practise mindful meditation myself purely for the psychological benefits, which are well documented. I have been an unreconstructed atheist since age 14 and I can assure you that its benefits are in no way dependent on
Abandoning rational beliefs.
Quote from: En_Route on May 11, 2012, 11:20:43 AM
I practise mindful meditation myself purely for the psychological benefits, which are well documented. I have been an unreconstructed atheist since age 14 and I can assure you that its benefits are in no way dependent on
Abandoning rational beliefs.
I didn't imagine it did altho there do seem to me to be other similiarities between meditation and prayer.
I think that it's more likely that there's a correlation between rituals/ceremony being intrinsically good for people and meditation/prayer also being good in its own right. I also don't see how they connect though. ???
Muslims do this more than Christians, pity there are no frequent posters.
BCE, to answer the question about the ceremony and the specific hours she mentions, she's maybe referring to the Liturgy of the Hours, aka the Divine Office. Especially morning prayer (Lauds) or evening prayer (Vespers). It's basically setting those hours apart during each day to focus, meditate, maybe sing hymns, pray, praise, etc. Most people I know who pray like this say that if they don't stay in the habit of doing it each day, they automatically feel 'further away' from God, and automatically lose the willpower to pray.
Interesting to me, that it requires specific set-aside devotional times to actually keep one connected to God. It seems like they have to make an extra effort to stay faithful, otherwise they start to naturally doubt. I sometimes wonder if any of them put two and two together, and realize that they're making themselves do something very un-natural, which is why it's so difficult to maintain and keep in the habit of.
^Interesting.
Reminds me of Pascal and his wager. After concluding that it's best to play it safe and believe, his advice to unbelievers was to make it a habit. Sort of ridiculous, really, but still an insight.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 12, 2012, 02:06:16 AM
^Interesting.
Reminds me of Pascal and his wager. After concluding that it's best to play it safe and believe, his advice to unbelievers was to make it a habit. Sort of ridiculous, really, but still an insight.
Well really, it seems to be one more thing where people have to train themselves to get into the mind-set of doing each day, even if that thing doesn't come naturally to them. We do this with lots of necessary things we might not want to do - take pills at certain hours, exercise every morning, eat at a certain time, practice a musical instrument or language so you don't lose the skills, etc. Forcing yourself into a habit is just about the only way a lot of people can ensure they'll do something often enough to make it "stick". I assume the same goes for prayer, eh? Make it a habit so that you'll do it, otherwise you'll get rusty at it.
As for the religious explanation on why people pray at those specific hours, there's an old, old poem that I've always liked the sound of. It just sounds pretty, in its own way... but basically it's a mandate from 'God' to pray in remembrance of him.
At Matins bound, at Prime reviled
Condemned to death at Terce,
Nailed to the Cross at Sext;
At None, His blessed Side they pierced,
They take Him down at Vesper-Tide,
In the grave at Compline lay,
Who henceforth bids His Church observe
These sevenfold hours always
And if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely?
Conditioning and tradition...*shrugs with a grin*. Mary Oliver thinks that a simple prayer recited every day is not the way to a moral life or faith or at the least is morally and faithfully vague. However, the more animated one is, the more they slobber for their faith, the bigger the ceremony at any time of the day is the way to a moral and faith filled life.
I never read Mary Oliver. Don't reckon I ever will...now.
Quote from: Gawen on May 13, 2012, 01:41:05 AM
I never read Mary Oliver. Don't reckon I ever will...now.
You probably wouldn't like her poetry anyway, more than a little on the dreamy, gauzy side.
Amicale, it's not so much a habit but that God commands prayer. Jesus didn't stand on ceremony, he also commanded a simple prayer to be said in private. Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.
Reference: Music Man - Seventy six trombones
Quote from: Gawen on May 14, 2012, 12:03:32 PM
Amicale, it's not so much a habit but that God commands prayer. Jesus didn't stand on ceremony, he also commanded a simple prayer to be said in private. Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.
Reference: Music Man - Seventy six trombones
:D Yes. Just so happens that I love The Music Man.
And I think in my one post, I alluded to it being mandated by God - ie, he tells his people to pray. And some keep on doing it, with or without visible immediate results, simply because they believe that he told them to pray so that's what they believe they're to do.
*walks off singing 'Marian.... Madam Librarrrrrr....ian.' *
Quote from: Gawen on May 14, 2012, 12:03:32 PM
Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.
To be fair to Oliver, her point was the usefulness of habits in sustaining faith and possibly morality, not how you should pray:
QuoteAnd if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely?
From what Bruce, DJ, Ami and xSP wrote earlier touching on the sense of connectedness found in a regular habit of prayer, and how it could be useful in sustaining religious belief, I think Oliver may be right about the faith part of it, tho I'm still unclear why she thinks habit is necessary for morality. From other things she's written, I don't think she's one of those faith = morality types.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 14, 2012, 03:02:14 PM
From what Bruce, DJ, Ami and xSP wrote earlier touching on the sense of connectedness found in a regular habit of prayer, and how it could be useful in sustaining religious belief, I think Oliver may be right about the faith part of it, tho I'm still unclear why she thinks habit is necessary for morality. From other things she's written, I don't think she's one of those faith = morality types.
Maybe she just doesn't have a clear definition of "morality?" Maybe she's conflating "warm-fuzzy-feelings" with the term? It's a pretty vague word at the best of times. Maybe it was just a word that appealed to her, from a poet's perspective, because it has emotional connotations, but she didn't examine the "argument" side of things too closely. I've written some things sometimes, only to go back and say "wow. that was a weird word choice." Maybe that's it?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 14, 2012, 03:11:57 PM
Maybe she just doesn't have a clear definition of "morality?" Maybe she's conflating "warm-fuzzy-feelings" with the term? It's a pretty vague word at the best of times. Maybe it was just a word that appealed to her, from a poet's perspective, because it has emotional connotations, but she didn't examine the "argument" side of things too closely. I've written some things sometimes, only to go back and say "wow. that was a weird word choice." Maybe that's it?
When I first read her quote, I was focused on ceremony as it related to prayer, specifically. But if she simply means that ceremony (i.e.; well-established habits) are connected to morality, then I can see it. Habits can overcome impulses to do things that are not moral. If there are no habits as safeguards, one might be more likely to give in to the impulse to do something that is not wise or right. Maybe.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on May 14, 2012, 07:25:38 PM
When I first read her quote, I was focused on ceremony as it related to prayer, specifically. But if she simply means that ceremony (i.e.; well-established habits) are connected to morality, then I can see it. Habits can overcome impulses to do things that are not moral. If there are no habits as safeguards, one might be more likely to give in to the impulse to do something that is not wise or right. Maybe.
The more I think about it, the more I think this may be what she's getting at (she was very vague about the morality side of it), perhaps that's the whole point of "bending the twig" with kids, creating habits of behavior that eventually turn into habits of thought.
Still, that depresses me slightly -- every time I turn around humans are being shown as just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses. Just slightly mind you, I'm generally OK with the whole apes in pants thing.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 03:48:52 AM
Still, that depresses me slightly -- every time I turn around humans are being shown as just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses. Just slightly mind you, I'm generally OK with the whole apes in pants thing.
I'm not so sure humans are just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses. Many of us are too crazy, impulsive and creative for that. We're always ticking someone off, coming up with something new, and having fun in the craziest ways. Even if you can chalk that up to instinct, that's not SO bad, is it? ;D
Quote from: Amicale on May 15, 2012, 04:06:49 AM
Even if you can chalk that up to instinct, that's not SO bad, is it? ;D
No, it's not bad at all -- it's just that old human ego getting in the way of common sense. And damn it if the ego turns out to be the only thing about us that
is special!
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Who says you can't do both?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 04:39:35 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Who says you can't do both?
"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. :D
Quote from: Amicale on May 15, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 04:39:35 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Who says you can't do both?
"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. :D
It would sure save time tho, if one wanted to. Personally, I think there's too much time saving going on already. Besides, for the religiously inclined putting their hands together and saying "please" before and "thank you" after probably does constitue a valid prayer. And no, SD, this doesn't mean that they can't also say those things to the person who obliged them.
Quote from: Amicale on May 15, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 04:39:35 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Who says you can't do both?
"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. :D
For the record, i never say that in bed xDD
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 04:59:17 AM
Quote from: Amicale on May 15, 2012, 04:49:34 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 15, 2012, 04:39:35 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:17:26 AM
I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.
Who says you can't do both?
"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. :D
It would sure save time tho, if one wanted to. Personally, I think there's too much time saving going on already. Besides, for the religiously inclined putting their hands together and saying "please" before and "thank you" after probably does constitue a valid prayer. And no, SD, this doesn't mean that they can't also say those things to the person who obliged them.
Very true! Although when I was a Christian, I found it VERY disconcerting, believing that God was watching every single thing I was doing and who I was doing it with. :D It wouldn't have occurred to me to pray in bed before or after being with someone. My prayers at that time were more focused on "sorry I screwed up again", which does mess with your head, given enough time and enough "indiscretions". :P
You know, I was never much for prayer when I was trying to be religious, maybe that's why I failed -- or maybe not having a religious nature made prayer just not something I thought of doing unless someone else suggested it. It's kind of a chicken or egg problem.
And as much as I heard about god seeing all things we do (and counting our hair and watching sparrows die) I never seemed to absorb the idea, just like I never absorbed all the things I was told about hell. Looking back, I'm starting to wonder if all I did during a childhood spent in church was look at the pretty colored windows and listen to the pretty singing voices.
I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity?
I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity. So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 17, 2012, 04:51:22 AM
I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity?
I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity. So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.
I reckon you answered your question.
Quote from: Gawen on May 21, 2012, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 17, 2012, 04:51:22 AM
I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity?
I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity. So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.
I reckon you answered your question.
It would have been if that had been
my opinion of what I was doing. It just seems to me that it's possible to express in prayer general feelings of thankfulness about something, without bringing a supernatural entity into it.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
Quote from: Gawen on May 21, 2012, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 17, 2012, 04:51:22 AM
I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity?
I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity. So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.
I reckon you answered your question.
It would have been if that had been my opinion of what I was doing. It just seems to me that it's possible to express in prayer general feelings of thankfulness about something, without bringing a supernatural entity into it.
I think I see what you mean. Like saying "Thank goodness" after something good happens.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 21, 2012, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 05:01:49 PM
Quote from: Gawen on May 21, 2012, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 17, 2012, 04:51:22 AM
I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity?
I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity. So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.
I reckon you answered your question.
It would have been if that had been my opinion of what I was doing. It just seems to me that it's possible to express in prayer general feelings of thankfulness about something, without bringing a supernatural entity into it.
I think I see what you mean. Like saying "Thank goodness" after something good happens.
I understand what you're both saying, for sure. I think it's entirely possible to want to express thankfulness or gratitude without it being directed to God, or to one specific person even. A supernatural entity doesn't need to enter the equation, although for some people, it will. I'm routinely thankful for, happy about, or grateful for many things. In all of those cases, I'm aware that humans played a role behind the scenes in a lot of those cases - ie, the food I eat, the healthcare I receive, the paychecks I get, the time I spend with family and friends, etc. For things that involve no human action but I'm still happy about (ie, a beautiful morning, a lovely summer thunderstorm, my cat purring next to me in bed)... I can just feel happy it happened. Nobody specific to thank really, other than just being fortunate to have witnessed it. :)
Yes, exactly, xSP and Amicale. It also occured to me that I've seen Buddhists mentioned as having no god in particular, some have even called it an atheist religion, and yet I'm quite sure they pray (I'll have to look into that). Why should they be the only non-theists to do so?
Edited to add this: Buddhist Prayers (http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/buddhistprayer/id4.html)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 10:50:25 PM
Yes, exactly, xSP and Amicale. It also occured to me that I've seen Buddhists mentioned as having no god in particular, some have even called it an atheist religion, and yet I'm quite sure they pray (I'll have to look into that). Why should they be the only non-theists to do so?
This might sound dumb or at least odd, but have you (or anyone here) just talked out loud or in your mind to someone who isn't actually there physically? For example, talking out loud to a deceased loved one? I've done this before, and it's not because I think they can hear me, but honestly because it just feels good to do so, sometimes. It's not 'prayer' exactly, more like releasing emotions and sharing your thoughts.
What you're doing, then, is redefining "prayer" as being thankful of or conversely damning someone or something. Being thankful is expressing gratitude or appreciative of something or perhaps pleasing to the mind or senses or agreeable or welcome or maybe even refreshing and doesn't need the extra baggage by calling it "prayer".
Well, I've never considered the word "prayer" as having baggage, so maybe that's where we're parting company on the word.
And now that I think of it, it took me maybe 2 seconds to find hundreds of Buddhist prayers on the internet -- prayers without reference to a deity, prayers that predate Xtianity. I think there's some room for arguement that prayer as absolutely requiring mention of a god is the redefinition, not prayer with optional mention of a god.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 11:04:01 PM
Well, I've never considered the word "prayer" as having baggage, so maybe that's where we're parting company on the word.
And now that I think of it, it took me maybe 2 seconds to find hundreds of Buddhist prayers on the internet -- prayers without reference to a deity, prayers that predate Xtianity. I think there's some room for arguement that prayer as absolutely requiring mention of a god is the redefinition, not prayer with optional mention of a god.
Atheist religion? Uh.. That's kinda really an oxymoron, isn't it?
And why the need for prayer? Yeah, buddhists are peaceful, but its still a religion. They still obide by a set of guidelines, as well as a world view of karma and rebirth. (Both of which are highly improbable )
They go to temples abd oray. Offer food to a statue altar. If that doesnt sound like religion...
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 22, 2012, 06:40:05 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 21, 2012, 11:04:01 PM
Well, I've never considered the word "prayer" as having baggage, so maybe that's where we're parting company on the word.
And now that I think of it, it took me maybe 2 seconds to find hundreds of Buddhist prayers on the internet -- prayers without reference to a deity, prayers that predate Xtianity. I think there's some room for arguement that prayer as absolutely requiring mention of a god is the redefinition, not prayer with optional mention of a god.
Atheist religion? Uh.. That's kinda really an oxymoron, isn't it?
And why the need for prayer? Yeah, buddhists are peaceful, but its still a religion. They still obide by a set of guidelines, as well as a world view of karma and rebirth. (Both of which are highly improbable )
They go to temples abd oray. Offer food to a statue altar. If that doesnt sound like religion...
You are quite right that Buddhism has been institutionalised and invested with all the paraphernalia of organised religion. However, the original teachings of Buddha do not presuppose a deity of any kind and his central insights are completely rational in nature. Karma etc is of course complete tosh but it is not an integral part of Buddha's own philosophy. In fact , most of what he says aligns with the findings of modern neuroscience and psychological therapies based on his thinking have been validated scientifically and have been sanctioned by the National Health Service in the UK. That of course doesn't make them correct but they are certainly not mystical jumbo jumbo by any means.
Helping a friend sort his late uncle's old mail for shredding right now.
I came across this gem about prayer that i had to share:
(it's actually writen in all caps.)
GOD ANSWERS PRAYER! AND POLICE OFFICERS WHO KNOW THE BIBLE KNOW FULL WELL THAT PRAYER IS YOUR FIRST BEST HOPE TO CONQUER CRIME, SIN AND THOSE PROBLEMS TROUBLING YOU AND OUR SOCIETY
People who believe this are totally sane, right? :( sheeesh.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 22, 2012, 05:26:50 PM
Helping a friend sort his late uncle's old mail for shredding right now.
I came across this gem about prayer that i had to share:
(it's actually writen in all caps.)
GOD ANSWERS PRAYER! AND POLICE OFFICERS WHO KNOW THE BIBLE KNOW FULL WELL THAT PRAYER IS YOUR FIRST BEST HOPE TO CONQUER CRIME, SIN AND THOSE PROBLEMS TROUBLING YOU AND OUR SOCIETY
People who believe this are totally sane, right? :( sheeesh.
Wow. Well, all I know is that if I call 9-1-1 for help, I want the police/fire/ambulance to show up pronto and help me. If they take 15 seconds to mutter a prayer as they're running down to their vehicle it makes no difference to me if it helps them feel better, but they'd better spend their time getting to the scene of the emergency, rather than spending it down on their knees. I don't exactly want an officer showing up 10 minutes too late, and telling me 'sorry Ma'am, I'm late, I stopped to pray rather than rushing over here.'
Eh. In all likelihood, in my neck of the woods, they'd stop for a coffee instead. :D
Quote from: Amicale on May 21, 2012, 10:54:46 PM
This might sound dumb or at least odd, but have you (or anyone here) just talked out loud or in your mind to someone who isn't actually there physically? For example, talking out loud to a deceased loved one? I've done this before, and it's not because I think they can hear me, but honestly because it just feels good to do so, sometimes. It's not 'prayer' exactly, more like releasing emotions and sharing your thoughts.
I haven't done anything like that, but it's been suggested to me as a way of dealing with unresolved emotional conflicts. I'm not sure I'd enjoy it, I think some things are unresolved for a good reason.
Well, as a ex-christian, I would have interpreted it as, "follow the leader". There's a lot of that in Catholicism.