Quote from: rickrocks on May 04, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
My brother was an atheist until he turned Buddhist. (note spelling) I was mortified. He said it's perfect for atheists because you don't have to believe anything, you just have to do the practice. Well, the practice was as close to religious ritual as I've ever seen, clanging gongs and lighting incense and chanting til blue in the mouth. But there's no dissuading big brother. He swore his chanting had a positive effect on my life. Nope. Can't go there, bro. I mean, I love you too, but...
Tank, I'm about to totally derail, so feel free to split off if you think it needs to be.
The above reminded me of why I am totally irritated by Satanists (as I understand them.) Keep in mind that most of my knowledge of Satanism was garnered from a 15 minute slot on "Secret Lives of Women", so the Satanist they interviewed may well not be representative of most Satanists, or it could have been edited to make for better TV, or whatever.
But basically, what this lady said is that Satanists are atheists, and they value reason and skepticism, and that they don't actually worship Satan as a deity, "Satan" is just a metaphor for basically owning your humanity in all of it's hedonistic imperfection (or something like that, I'm paraphrasing.) Okay, so far so good. I'm down. But then, they showed how she did this "ceremony" where she was all "Oh Dark Lord...blah blah blah...." around a statue of a devil. And I was a little like "Wow, it sure looks like you're worshipping a deity, what with all the 'Oh Lord-ing'..." But I was willing to let it go. Metaphors, okay. I understand that symbolic rituals can sometimes be helpful in focusing your energy on something. I am currently practicing a ritual with T where we add a bead to a string for every day that I keep a certain promise to him and myself, so I get that intangibles sometimes help.
But then, THEN, she was talking about how one time during one of her rituals, she was mad at her neighbor, so she wrote his name on a piece of paper and stabbed the paper with a sword and the next day
he died. *Cue scary music*
And that's when my head exploded. Seriously? If that's an accurate representation of Satanist beliefs (they are atheists, but they *do* believe that, for example, you can cause harm to someone by stabbing a piece of paper) then they are the very stupidist of religions or belief systems, or whatever. Because in that case, the chain of cause and effect is completely broken. I get why theists believe that praying accomplishes something. They believe that their deity is listening and will intervene on their behalf. I disagree with that assessment, but at least I understand the cause and effect. If a Satanist doesn't believe in any literal deity that will intervene on their behalf, how can they believe that stabbing a piece of paper will produce any effect other than a holey piece of paper? Where is the chain of cause and effect?
I think I got especially het up because she went on and on about how she is an atheist. Kind of a "No True Scotsman" reaction, I suppose.
/end rant.
Derail split at Ali's suggestion, although why she couldn't have just started the thread in the first place I know not.
*wanders of grumbling*
Quote from: Tank on May 06, 2012, 04:24:51 PM
Derail split at Ali's suggestion, although why she couldn't have just started the thread in the first place I know not.
*wanders of grumbling*
You should change your avatar to Mr Grumpy.
I wasn't sure about splitting it off because I wanted to quote rickrocks on Buddhism since it was a natural continuance of that conversation, but not actually about Buddhism. I didn't know how to quote rickrocks, indicate that it was a divergence from that conversation, and still have it make sense in a different thread.
Plus, I like to make you work for it. ;D
Quote from: Ali on May 06, 2012, 04:36:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 06, 2012, 04:24:51 PM
Derail split at Ali's suggestion, although why she couldn't have just started the thread in the first place I know not.
*wanders of grumbling*
You should change your avatar to Mr Grumpy.
I wasn't sure about splitting it off because I wanted to quote rickrocks on Buddhism since it was a natural continuance of that conversation, but not actually about Buddhism. I didn't know how to quote rickrocks, indicate that it was a divergence from that conversation, and still have it make sense in a different thread.
Plus, I like to make you work for it. ;D
Bad Ali (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg137.imageshack.us%2Fimg137%2F2327%2Fspankehlz1.gif&hash=3c05dc360c19f8656301501c70736b34602835f1)
Tank, don't you know that we live to give you things to do? ;D
And yeah, Ali, I totally get what you mean. We had a couple of self-identified Satanist/Atheists come through here and that was the biggest thing I couldn't get my head around. Why "Satan"? Even if it's just a philosophy, surely there has to be a less misleading rallying point? If you say "Satanist" people will think "you worship Satan and think he's real", why wouldn't they? Part of me wonders if some people just like the inflammatory nature of the word.
As for the holey swordy thing. I don't know, that seems like some pretty clear voodoo magic stuff.
Quote from: Ali on May 06, 2012, 03:46:58 PM
Quote from: rickrocks on May 04, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
My brother was an atheist until he turned Buddhist. (note spelling) I was mortified. He said it's perfect for atheists because you don't have to believe anything, you just have to do the practice. Well, the practice was as close to religious ritual as I've ever seen, clanging gongs and lighting incense and chanting til blue in the mouth. But there's no dissuading big brother. He swore his chanting had a positive effect on my life. Nope. Can't go there, bro. I mean, I love you too, but...
. . . And that's when my head exploded. Seriously? If that's an accurate representation of Satanist beliefs (they are atheists, but they *do* believe that, for example, you can cause harm to someone by stabbing a piece of paper) then they are the very stupidist of religions or belief systems, or whatever.
Re: Buddhists, if memory serves (and in my case it usually doesn't) there's also the business of bringing offerings to the ritual set-up. Like Ali, I get the whole visual aid thing but to me "offering" implies a recipient on the other end whose pleasure or displeasure you're trying to sway, which is were the atheism claim goes off the rails for me.
I think this case and the atheist-Satanist case are just attempts to have it both ways at once.
We had a somewhat regular poster who called herself a satanist a while back (Medusa). She linked to a site where they explained that Satanists are atheists, and have a lot in common with humanists, but they differ in that satanists like rituals (which makes them quasi-religious but ok).
There was nothing about them even believing that satan was real, he just personified things for them...but ok. IMO it's a bit odd to personify something you dont believe concretely exists and worship it with rituals. Reminds me of the worshipping of personified goddess Reason during the french revolution, when things really got odd. ???
There are two main types of Satanist: Theistic (who worship the devil - which seems just a bit.... daft to me), and Atheistic (who worship the self and follow a policy of self-gratification).
Atheistic Satanists (often following the Satanic Bible written by Anton LaVey) do use 'magic' but it's all just about manipulation and deception. No supernatural involved. I love Anton LaVey's quote stating "those who spell magik with a 'k', aren't". This woman you're talking about just sounds a bit confused and would be laughed out of town (or worse) by hardcore LaVeyan Satanists.
I've read the Satanic bible and it sits well with me, although I'm not sufficiently selfish or disciplined to adhere to the doctrine. The fact that they call themselves 'Satanists' is more a protest against Theistic religion than as a doffing-the-cap to the AntiChrist. It sure is a misleading and emotive title - used to shock by noticeboxes. That is why I chose to use the phrase 'LaVeyan' rather than 'Satanist' in my icon title.
In reality Laveyan Satanists are just self obsessed Atheists, keen required to satisfy their human desires (within certain limits relating to indefensible victims (children, the infirm or animals)). Nothing more sinister than that.
These are the Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth:
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
And these are the Nine Satanic Statements:
1. Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe-dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development" has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend of the church as he has kept it in business all of these years!
So, nothing to be scared of.... and nothing that gives its followers special powers.
I really like some of those rules ;D
Quote from: Scissorlegs on May 06, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
So, nothing to be scared of.... and nothing that gives its followers special powers.
Don't worry Siz. I'm not scared of Satanists. Bemused is a better word for what I am.
Quote from: Ali on May 07, 2012, 04:59:12 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on May 06, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
So, nothing to be scared of.... and nothing that gives its followers special powers.
Don't worry Siz. I'm not scared of Satanists. Bemused is a better word for what I am.
Why bemused? It's fairly clearly and concisely defined above, and the Satanic Bible which expands on these is less than 100 pages long and reads like a jargon-free essay, without pomp or condescension.
I've come to the conclusion that it's perhaps easier for me than most to align myself because I'm naturally free of the burden of indiscriminate compassion (or sometimes any compassion at all). You may call that a failure, I see it as a liberator. Is that selfish? Only if I allow it to manifest itself so - that is my choice and my prerogative to so decide. You may judge me by my actions, and that is your prerogative. Satanism allows plenty of room for good deeds and charity - in fact the 'Church' has charity committees which work to provide help for the deserving - those who are in unfortunate positions through no fault of their own
AND WHO ARE WILLING TO HELP THEMSELVES.
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 06, 2012, 08:26:14 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 06, 2012, 03:46:58 PM
Quote from: rickrocks on May 04, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
My brother was an atheist until he turned Buddhist. (note spelling) I was mortified. He said it's perfect for atheists because you don't have to believe anything, you just have to do the practice. Well, the practice was as close to religious ritual as I've ever seen, clanging gongs and lighting incense and chanting til blue in the mouth. But there's no dissuading big brother. He swore his chanting had a positive effect on my life. Nope. Can't go there, bro. I mean, I love you too, but...
. . . And that's when my head exploded. Seriously? If that's an accurate representation of Satanist beliefs (they are atheists, but they *do* believe that, for example, you can cause harm to someone by stabbing a piece of paper) then they are the very stupidist of religions or belief systems, or whatever.
Re: Buddhists, if memory serves (and in my case it usually doesn't) there's also the business of bringing offerings to the ritual set-up. Like Ali, I get the whole visual aid thing but to me "offering" implies a recipient on the other end whose pleasure or displeasure you're trying to sway, which is were the atheism claim goes off the rails for me.
I think this case and the athiest-Satanist case are just attempts to have it both ways at once.
In fact the Laveyan Satanist despises this ritual (see No.10 of the satanic rules). It is assumed that it is the release of energy from a dying creature - not the actual blood - that helps add to the 'magic' of a ritual. The LaVeyan ritualist considers the same energies, only released during orgasm or pleasure from other personal indulgence to be superior.
It is only Theistic Satanists who use animals in this way.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on May 06, 2012, 10:03:41 PM
These are the Eleven Satanic Rules of Earth: (etc.)
And these are the Nine Satanic Statements: (etc.)
Honestly, this seems to me no different than most religions -- a lot of guesswork that could easily go wrong, and invitations to over-react to minor issues.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on May 07, 2012, 09:02:33 AM
Why bemused? It's fairly clearly and concisely defined above, and the Satanic Bible which expands on these is less than 100 pages long and reads like a jargon-free essay, without pomp or condescension.
I've come to the conclusion that it's perhaps easier for me than most to align myself because I'm naturally free of the burden of indiscriminate compassion (or sometimes any compassion at all). You may call that a failure, I see it as a liberator. Is that selfish? Only if I allow it to manifest itself so - that is my choice and my prerogative to so decide. You may judge me by my actions, and that is your prerogative. Satanism allows plenty of room for good deeds and charity - in fact the 'Church' has charity committees which work to provide help for the deserving - those who are in unfortunate positions through no fault of their own AND WHO ARE WILLING TO HELP THEMSELVES.
It's the magic part I'm still hung up on. If they don't actually believe in "magic" then why would they spend the energy doing rituals to perpetrate "manipulation and deception?" Who are they manipulating and decieving? From that statement, if I was forced to speculate, I would assume that it's to induce fear in the credulous. Which I admit I don't have a lot of respect for. Lying to basically bully someone isn't something I'm really in to.
As for the rules and statements, they don't bother me. Some of them I agree with, some of them I disagree with, but meh. I don't need to agree with Satanists any more than I need to agree with Christians. I guess at the bottom of it, I just really don't understand the point of it all, if they don't actually believe in a deity. The glorious thing about being an atheist is freeing yourself from dogma. I don't really understand why one would bother to throw off one religious dogma only to embrace another, but to each his own.
And come on, you can NOT tell me that you typed out the words "lair" and "the mating signal" with a straight face. ;D "Step into my lair. Consider this your mating signal. Rawr." ;D
I thought it was a marketing thing, a way for an old bald guy to attract young women/persons.
You get Robert Plant and Jimmy Page on side and your laughing.
Quote from: Ali on May 07, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
It's the magic part I'm still hung up on. If they don't actually believe in "magic" then why would they spend the energy doing rituals to perpetrate "manipulation and deception?" Who are they manipulating and decieving? From that statement, if I was forced to speculate, I would assume that it's to induce fear in the credulous. Which I admit I don't have a lot of respect for. Lying to basically bully someone isn't something I'm really in to.
My impression is that it's one of those "shared experience" things that's supposed to bring people together, like some of the chants and ceremonial crap you see in secret societies or fraternities. Or churches :)
Quote from: Ali
It's the magic part I'm still hung up on. If they don't actually believe in "magic" then why would they spend the energy doing rituals to perpetrate "manipulation and deception?" Who are they manipulating and decieving? From that statement, if I was forced to speculate, I would assume that it's to induce fear in the credulous. Which I admit I don't have a lot of respect for. Lying to basically bully someone isn't something I'm really in to.
As for the rules and statements, they don't bother me. Some of them I agree with, some of them I disagree with, but meh. I don't need to agree with Satanists any more than I need to agree with Christians. I guess at the bottom of it, I just really don't understand the point of it all, if they don't actually believe in a deity. The glorious thing about being an atheist is freeing yourself from dogma. I don't really understand why one would bother to throw off one religious dogma only to embrace another, but to each his own.
And come on, you can NOT tell me that you typed out the words "lair" and "the mating signal" with a straight face. ;D "Step into my lair. Consider this your mating signal. Rawr." ;D
Copy and paste insulates me from such personal involvement! ;D
To clarify, rituals and magic are not interdependent. Not much point in using 'magic' on your compatriots in the comfort of your own church is there? Dogma, nor magic, nor ritual are a necessary part of the Satanism. Nothing is. Nothing is considered more important than personal freedom, and that includes ones deportment in relation to the philosophy. Agree, disagree... follow 1 rule, all of them or none... noone gives a shit, least of all the late LaVey. Some people choose to be all cosmic-bozo about it. Most are just ordinary people who are MORE free than most because they are enabling their human desires, emancipated from self-conscience, guilt and social repression often born of religious stigma in the first place.
I am a sympathiser - not an adherent, not an apologist. Just a bloke shedding some light on a misconception.
Satanism ranks right up there with Scientology for me-intended more as satire than to be serious, ultimately harmless, and attractive to unbalanced people. Reading the rules and statements, it seems like the only purpose is to be contrary. As in, "Oh yeah, Christians? Well if your club is going to turn the other cheek, than my club will destroy people who piss us off. Nyah nyah nyah!" I don't think anyone really needs dogma, doctrine or ritual to be contrary. You could, you know...just do what you feel like all the time anyway and be an indulgent person, not a Satanist. ::)
As for the devil-worshipping branch of Satanists... ::)
Quote from: Ali on May 07, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
"Step into my lair. Consider this your mating signal. Rawr." ;D
Geez, if only it were that easy.
Is it just me or are
"If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy."
and
"When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him."
completely over the top? I mean, what's the purpose of treating anyone cruelly for merely annoying you? That's kinda like a little kid, saying "mommy, my brother's bugging me, I'm gonna bash his head in cause I can't control my temper!" ;) And then the whole bit about destroying someone who won't stop bothering you.... yeah... anyone who's ever had to go shopping with teenagers will know what I mean when I say if we all followed this advice, there'd be very few teenagers left in the world. :D
I dunno, whoever equated satanism with humanism seems to have a different definition of humanism than I do. :P
It's pretty hyperbolic. I'm sure even the most hardcore Satanist doesn't literally kill every person who gets in their way and bothers them. If they did, we'd see a lot more Satanists on the news. So Atheist Satanists label themselves under a god they don't literally believe in and adhere to a list of practices that they don't literally follow. ???
If you want to do whatever the hell you want and don't really care about other people, I think it'd be clearer to just say that.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on May 08, 2012, 02:22:54 PM
It's pretty hyperbolic. I'm sure even the most hardcore Satanist doesn't literally kill every person who gets in their way and bothers them. If they did, we'd see a lot more Satanists on the news. So Atheist Satanists label themselves under a god they don't literally believe in and adhere to a list of practices that they don't literally follow. ???
If you want to do whatever the hell you want and don't really care about other people, I think it'd be clearer to just say that.
Ja. I guess at the end of the day, I don't really get why (atheistic) Satanists bother with it all. Do you really need rules and statements to help you be selfish? I sure don't.
What exactly is a mating call?
Anyway, reading over those rules is kind is like "why have set rules and guide lines at all" ?
Sorry, but people who have "what to do/what not to do" written books are loonies.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:48:55 AM
What exactly is a mating call?
In the UK it's "Wanna Fuk Luv?" while I believe in Australia it's "Brace yourself Shelia!".
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2012, 07:30:18 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:48:55 AM
What exactly is a mating call?
In the UK it's "Wanna Fuk Luv?"
I get this all the time. I have to tell them I'm booked solid for months.
Quote from: Tank on May 15, 2012, 07:30:18 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 15, 2012, 04:48:55 AM
What exactly is a mating call?
In the UK it's "Wanna Fuk Luv?" while I believe in Australia it's "Brace yourself Shelia!".
From memory the "brace yourself" thing sounds more like foreplay than a mating call, though in my isolated cave I'm not really in touch with modern goings on.
I guess my flirting is a little different.
Isn't a "Sheila" a girl kangaroo?
Quote from: Ali on May 16, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
Isn't a "Sheila" a girl kangaroo?
No
I mean there could be a girl kangaroo called "Sheila," I don't know all their names but it isn't a general name like sow or mare.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 16, 2012, 07:06:38 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 16, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
Isn't a "Sheila" a girl kangaroo?
No
I mean there could be a girl kangaroo called "Sheila," I don't know all their names but it isn't a general name like sow or mare.
I thought a "sheila" was a girl human in Australia.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 16, 2012, 03:41:48 PM
I thought a "sheila" was a girl human in Australia.
Ye it was a thing, it is more than a bit old now though.
I'm pretty sure I've never used the term and I don't think my contemporaries did but I know some guys of my fathers generation did.
If it is used now it would probably be by a comedian doing some thing long past its use buy date.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on May 16, 2012, 07:06:38 AM
Quote from: Ali on May 16, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
Isn't a "Sheila" a girl kangaroo?
No
I mean there could be a girl kangaroo called "Sheila," I don't know all their names but it isn't a general name like sow or mare.
I'm going to get a kangaroo, and name it Sheila. Then I'll (blank) it.