http://youtu.be/FWHzIt4A_oo (http://youtu.be/FWHzIt4A_oo)
This really hit it where it hurt...
I was thinking about posting this, but forgot. Indeed, a powerful vid, and to me personally it's almost surreal, in the sense that people actually have to go through this sort of stuff... ???
Makes me want to strangle some parents!
Some people should not be allowed to breed...
A simple powerful message well delivered.
Thanks for posting.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
Makes me want to strangle some parents!
Some people should not be allowed to breed...
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
As Richard Dawkins pointed out religion is very much like a 'mind virus'. Once infected with a religious meme it's not easy to just slough it off, we witness that situation here every day. What this goes to show is just how insidious and dangerous institutionalised superstitions can be in that they can turn parents against their own children.
It's the way the parents were brought up that's the problem. Musicality isn't going to bring her kids up to be superstitious so the chain is broken with her. There are loads of children of theists here and ex-theists that will also break the chain. I hope things will get better in the long run but in the near term humanity is going to go through some major pain as it divests itself of mythology. While anger is the immediate emotional response it shouldn't drown out the need to be sympathetic to those less fortunate than ourselves who still cling to their past, their memes and their upbringing.
Somewhere in all our ancestry we all have theist parents/grandparents etc etc. I wouldn't be too hard on mine.
I feel more pity and sorrow than anger. Of course I feel sorrow for the 'children', but I also pity the parents because it is the fact that they are scared of going to hell that they feel compelled to disown their children. It is the act of a terrorised mind and must still be a wretched decision for them.
Although its easy for me, from the comfort of my Atheism, to say that I'd risk eternal damnation for the wellbeing of my children, if I truly believed in the likelihood (or even possibility) of eternal damnation, would I have the strength of love to risk being associated with the heathen offspring? These parents obviously do not.
Is it really their fault? Whose fault is it? It is the blameless children of today who will be teaching the perpetuators of tomorrow. Arguably there is no blame, ad infinitum, and no way to break the cycle if we are to preserve free will.
Sad...so very sad. Anyone got the answer to this one?
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
I wouldn't be too hard on mine.
If mine tried pushing their theism on me and I still turned out atheist, I'd hold a massive grudge. They'd probably never see nor hear from me again from the moment I could leave home.
Wow. With my mother being the person I am closest too, that would absolutely crush me if she did that. :-[
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
What if they didn't know what a cold was or that they even had it? I grant you that in this day and age many more people have been exposed to the atheist meme, so many theists at least know some people who are atheists.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not? I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how
can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:46:55 PM
It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)
That's a very good way to go about it. Let the believers figure it out by themselves.
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not? I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation. :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:46:55 PM
It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)
Great approach. :) And like you, I hope that the stigma WILL become less and less. With time, learning, and our generation having some life experience as atheists, I think it'll get better.
I'm personally generally pretty non-combative. I'd sooner focus on getting to know people, and loving them, for reasons other than belief - they're kind, they're a good person, they're funny, etc etc. But if I know someone well enough to discuss something, and I also think they'd like to just have an occasional chat then I'm happy to share my idea and to hear theirs, as well. These are just conversations though, with people I respect, trust, and know very well... and I'd never consider these to be battles or challenges. I'm not trying to "win" anything; I'm just trying to share, and I hope they'll share too. It's about the respect we have for each other, really.
Also, like you, I don't tend to say much in general family situations, or around people in public. I don't want to hide my atheism, but I think they'll figure it out if they spend enough time around me. I don't offer to pray for people, or say bless you, or refer to faith in my daily life. They definitely clue in quickly. One family member used to spend almost all of his time discussing the bible with me, until he realized that I knew the bible pretty well, but that I didn't believe it -- that's when he stopped. :D
In all seriousness, I feel so bad for people who have to worry about whether they'll lose their family over simply stating their beliefs. These people generally have a LOT more to lose than many of us, who had relatives who dealt with our coming out atheist or never being theist at all just fine. So it would be too easy to say 'the heck with those people, drop them from your life' or 'if my parents tried to raise me theist and I still turned out atheist, I'd leave', but.... that's your family. The people you've known and loved your entire life. Walking away from that isn't anything most people want to do.
As others have said here, it's just best to break the cycle as much as possible. Have it end with us. That's not to say our kids or grandkids will never be religious, but they won't be religious because WE threatened or forced or expected them to be.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions could be regarded as culpable.
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not? I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation. :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions could be regarded as culpable.
Though I do believe in personal responsibility (things would fall apart IMO if we didn't take it as a given), as for the rest of what you said, I feel the same way. There's a intentional difference between spreading the cold without knowing what you're doing and spreading it with the intent to cause disease, such as in biological warfare. Intention makes the difference.
To be the devil's advocate for a moment here: the religious may believe that they're causing harm by
not preaching and a proselytising ad nauseum, so I don't see those types as having evil intents. It's just sad that they're so afraid to fight what is more important (IMO) but rather stick to their beliefs like crutches. A reversal in priorities. ???
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 10:55:19 PM
To be the devil's advocate for a moment here: the religious may believe that they're causing harm by not preaching and a proselytising ad nauseum, so I don't see those types as having evil intents. It's just sad that they're so afraid to fight what is more important (IMO) but rather stick to their beliefs like crutches. A reversal in priorities. ???
I absolutely agree with this. I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"
These people do NOT have evil intentions. They aren't intending to hurt you by preaching or prosyletizing, they honestly, sincerely believe that if they don't give you their message, you're doomed. These are the same types of folks who break down in tears and tell you "I love you, I can't stand the thought of you not being in heaven with me one day". Heh. Try sticking up for your atheism right in that moment, when that's a very close family member sobbing in your arms... :P If you CAN, then you've got a stronger stomach than I do. Or different priorities.
I think it's just sad. First, that they'd be SO certain their way was correct, and stick to their ideas like crutches... but secondly and most importantly, it's sad that they're tormented and lying awake at night, worrying about the eternal souls of the people they love. I feel really bad for them. I don't want ANYONE to ever worry over me like that. I'd MUCH sooner people just enjoy their life while they have it. Enjoy and love the people you know. Appreciate living right now. *shrug*
Yes. It's like me saying "i locked my daughter in my bedroom to protect her."
We all know such a way of thinking is utterly reckless and insane. So, look how dangerous it is for a large mass of people whom strongly believe their way is right, then continue to force their beliefs on others who dont ask/want it. It really pisses me off.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions could be regarded as culpable.
Though I do believe in personal responsibility (things would fall apart IMO if we didn't take it as a given), as for the rest of what you said, I feel the same way.
I agree that the maintenance of social order depends on assigning personal responsibility for our actions. However, at the philosophical level, I think it is merely a useful fiction, propped up by quasi-religious notions of free will.
^ Precisely.
Quote from: Asmo on April 24, 2012, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not? I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation. :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
Hey, Asmo, it's been some time since you mocked and/or insulted any one. I'm still waiting for a chane to use some mod red here ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on April 25, 2012, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: Asmo on April 24, 2012, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not? I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation. :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
Hey, Asmo, it's been some time since you mocked and/or insulted any one. I'm still waiting for a chane to use some mod red here ;D
Asmo is acting a bit weird lately. XP
The hardest part of being an atheist is interacting with family. I'm thinking of my family. We have representatives of every faction from holy roller to atheist pinkos. And we've always been able to sit around the holiday dinner table and talk about different concepts. Nowadays, my nephew has grown up, become a Baptist preacher, and sired four of the greatest kids. The mom is a great, loving person who totally lives for her family. It sounds idyllic. But there's a divisiveness in it that keeps me from feeling comfortable in suggesting a get-together. The kids are home-schooled, and they all never interact on a social level outside of their fellow church members. They are almost cloistered like the Amish, with limited contact with the outside world. Their entire existence is based on praising God and being totally thankful to God for their blessings and doing God's work in the world. God is the source of life and love to them.
I think of their family portrait. There they sit, the six of them, and five more if you count my other nephew, all set up real perfect and pretty, all set up like bowling pins. Me? I've been godless since just after high school ('71). And I really want to keep up the relationship we had all the time I was "Uncle Rick". I want to be an influence, but I hesitate. Why? Because they have it going on so nicely. I feel like if I was to be myself around them, I would knock down all those bowling pins. This bull could destroy that china shop. Nephew or wife could possibly change their mind on God and re-, or un-convert, lose the faith. This could lead to the deterioration of their marriage, destruction of the family unit, rebellion and dissension among the kids, destruction of their perfect little universe.
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me.
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me.
I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me.
I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.
It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 04:10:31 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me.
I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.
It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.
Hmm. Actually, I like talking about mundane, simple stuff with my family. Just catching up on life, talking about good food, school events for the kids, work for the adults, etc. Just touching base on that stuff is a good thing, to me. If I want a philosophical conversation, that's when I go talk to a friend or log in here to HAF. :) I don't mind at all. I picked my friends for lots of different reasons, but my family are the people I go to when I want to just relax and tell my grandma how awesome her cabbage rolls were. ;D
Amicale, nicely put. I will ponder further.
I find it interesting that a Christian will prosylytize to save those they love, while an Atheist will not, because they don't wont to hurt those they love.
Quote from: Amicale on April 27, 2012, 04:20:04 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 04:10:31 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me.
I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.
It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.
Hmm. Actually, I like talking about mundane, simple stuff with my family. Just catching up on life, talking about good food, school events for the kids, work for the adults, etc. Just touching base on that stuff is a good thing, to me. If I want a philosophical conversation, that's when I go talk to a friend or log in here to HAF. :) I don't mind at all. I picked my friends for lots of different reasons, but my family are the people I go to when I want to just relax and tell my grandma how awesome her cabbage rolls were. ;D
Well put.
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"
I think we've seen that analogy turn up on these forums before, and I've heard it more than once in real life, and it's always a facepalm analogy for me.
It breaks down because they can't see the train coming either, they just
imagine that it is and are trying to push me off the tracks based on something in their head. If they actually could see and/or hear the train coming, I'd be able to as well and would cheerfully get off the tracks on my own.
It does make me wonder, is there any analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down under its own illogic?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"
I think we've seen that analogy turn up on these forums before, and I've heard it more than once in real life, and it's always a facepalm analogy for me.
It breaks down because they can't see the train coming either, they just imagine that it is and are trying to push me off the tracks based on something in their head. If they actually could see and/or hear the train coming, I'd be able to as well and would cheerfully get off the tracks on my own.
It does make me wonder, is there any analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down under its own illogic?
Very good point about them not seeing the train either. :) For those who use that analogy about the train, or something similar to it... I'll say this for them. They're probably sincere in their beliefs, they probably care about the people they're trying to "save", and they probably have their heart in the right place. For those reasons, I'm never angry if a friend makes an analogy like that. I try to put myself in their shoes. If I had that mentality and honestly believed what they did, then I'd probably try to share my ideas with others too, in the hopes that they wouldn't be "hit". I say probably, because I don't know for sure how I'd respond, really. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't proselytize. It was a personal thing, to me, and it didn't occur to me to go around trying to convert others.
I can't think of an analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down. Good question. If any of the theists (or ex-theists) here have one, I'd be sincerely interested in hearing it, out of curiosity.
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:04:58 AM
For those who use that analogy about the train, or something similar to it... I'll say this for them. They're probably sincere in their beliefs, they probably care about the people they're trying to "save", and they probably have their heart in the right place. For those reasons, I'm never angry if a friend makes an analogy like that.
I'm right there with you. The ones that are glaring and screaming gospel are annoying, no question about it, but most of the others I find kind of sweet. And, like their charging train god, my face palming is done entirely in my own head. But I would like to hear an analogy that doesn't break down under the weight of its own illogic, or a reason for worshipping a god that doesn't rely on a hopeless attempt to prove the unprovable. I've been promised this stuff for years, and out of pure curiousity I'd like to finally get an answer.
I will admit to doing something. Or rather, admit to keeping my mouth shut on something.
I was with a friend and her son. Her son is 6. He was asking his mom all kinds of questions about where dogs, cats, butterflies, etc go when they die. She responded with "well honey, what do you think?" and he said "I think they go to animal heaven." and then a bit later, he said "I think nice people go to heaven too." She asked "why do you think that?" and in a wide-eyed, solemn-faced little boy response, he said "because I love them and I want them to be with me forever. I want you (myself) and you (his mom) to be with me forever! Don't you want that, mommy and (me)?"
I couldn't, for the life of me, say anything other than "yes, of course!" and she said the same. Neither of us believe in God, but... eh.
I said it because it's the truth. If I COULD have forever with my friends and family and those I love, I'd take it in a heartbeat. So it was absolutely true what I said. I can want and wish for something. What I of course didn't say to him was "but wanting it doesn't make it true". I'm not his parent, it wasn't my place, and I suspect in the future, he won't see the world in such a simple way -- "if I want it, it MUST exist".
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.
And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear. I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that. I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 01:56:53 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.
And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear. I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that. I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.
I don't know...thinking short-term, yes everlasting life does look tempting. Thinking long-term, definitely not.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 30, 2012, 02:16:39 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 01:56:53 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.
And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear. I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that. I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.
I don't know...thinking short-term, yes everlasting life does look tempting. Thinking long-term, definitely not.
I'd rather be a vampire.
Not really, lol.
But realistically, these people are kind of sad and pathetic. I agree it comes out of fear; but to apply it so furiously to a child kind of pisses me off.