Over the years I've been fine tuning both my outlook on the world around me AND the best description of that outlook. I find myself identifying philosophically to naturalism(not the naked kind ;) ) and I do not believe in gods and/or the supernatural, but I still have "spiritual" moments, in which I feel either connected to nature and/or the universe at large and have a complex set of emotions that are associated with those emotions; sometimes to the point that I draw tears(happy ones). I recently came across the term naturalistic pantheism and this is the Wikipedia definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism)
Now I realize that pantheism can also mean a literal belief in a God permeating everything, which doesn't make sense to me either, but my views of the term are more allegorical than literal and no NOT involve a deity, so that is where the naturalistic part comes in, to emphasize this lack of belief.
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?
Yes, though I woulod describe myself as having pantheistic tendencies, not really pantheistic in the sense of the word. The whole idea that nature is god just still sounds too religious to me, so i reject it.
The 'god' word has too much baggage, and some of it seeps into 'pantheism' as well.
But yeah, I'm nit-picky with the words. Just a bit. :-X
One of the more interesting things that comes with atheism is a kind of awareness that I would also resist calling 'spiritual'. The thought that a part of the universe temporarily organised itself into something that's capable of observing itself is something profound IMO. Would that be more or less what you see as pantheism?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 05:55:12 AM
Yes, though I woulod describe myself as having pantheistic tendencies, not really pantheistic in the sense of the word. The whole idea that nature is god just still sounds too religious to me, so i reject it.
The 'god' word has too much baggage, and some of it seeps into 'pantheism' as well.
But yeah, I'm nit-picky with the words. Just a bit. :-X
One of the more interesting things that comes with atheism is a kind of awareness that I would also resist calling 'spiritual'. The thought that a part of the universe temporarily organised itself into something that's capable of observing itself is something profound IMO. Would that be more or less what you see as pantheism?
Yes, it is incredible to me that we are merely "star stuff" and are able to contemplate the fact that we are so; and knowing how tiny I am, compared to the cosmos as a whole, is truly humbling(especially when I see deep space photos). So yes, I see pantheism under this lens, hence the adding of the
naturalistic, or
scientific adjective to the word pantheism. However, I'm not reluctant to use the word spiritual because I feel it best describes the emotions I have, which are more or less a deep awe and understanding and a feeling of love for the world around me. In fact, I'm sure the emotions I feel are probably derived from the same regions of the brain as those of the religious(let me know if I'm wrong here). At times, as an atheist, I would like to deny that I have these emotions because of their association with religion, probably much like how many religious people would like to deny that they have sexual desires because they think it is sinful. I understand that there may be atheists that aren't comfortable embracing such feelings, and that is fine with me, I'm curious:
How many atheists experience these feelings and embrace them?
How many experience them but suppress them?
how many don't really experience them at all?
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:27:13 PMHow many atheists experience these feelings and embrace them?
For my own part I can only point you to a video by philhllenes called Science Saved My Soul (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk) ;D ( and around 5:19-6:55 he pretty much says what I think about when people try to call this sense of awe and wonder "spiritual" or "religious" experience...though I guess "mindgasm" does have an interesting ring to it... :D ).
As for Pantheism, I really don't know. To me it sounds like the next step of Druidism or something. Without the Earth spirits and what not. In other words to me it's just another way to make me say that there is something that is in control of it all, be it universe and it's laws or "god". I'm just waiting for the say some guy hear about dark matter and how it most likely is holding the galaxies together and starts calling it "god".... :-\
Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.
No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?
Yes, I have had similar experiences, and consider them a natural reaction to being here as part of the universe/being an aspect of the universe which can experience at least some of itself. I think that "naturalistic pantheism" is somewhat of a misnomer, but on the other hand I would have trouble coming up with an appropriate name for it, so can't really carp too much. I hope that they manage to do some good. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg830.imageshack.us%2Fimg830%2F860%2Fsmilew.gif&hash=8238eab24d16418eb1c8cd60d971239ab1363c74)
Quote from: Scissorlegs on April 25, 2012, 12:19:57 AM
Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.
No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.
I feel as if there are too many terms for simple things..
What exactly is Pantheism?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 25, 2012, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on April 25, 2012, 12:19:57 AM
Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.
No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.
I feel as if there are too many terms for simple things..
What exactly is Pantheism?
The modern meaning is often defined as God and the Universe being one in the same. However, it can mean something different to atheists than to theists, to the former it is more often about awe, wonder, and scientific understanding, while the latter often involve the supernatural and spiritual union with the universe. I would be in the former.
Quote from: Recusant on April 25, 2012, 12:45:53 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?
Yes, I have had similar experiences, and consider them a natural reaction to being here as part of the universe/being an aspect of the universe which can experience at least some of itself. I think that "naturalistic pantheism" is somewhat of a misnomer, but on the other hand I would have trouble coming up with an appropriate name for it, so can't really carp too much. I hope that they manage to do some good. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg830.imageshack.us%2Fimg830%2F860%2Fsmilew.gif&hash=8238eab24d16418eb1c8cd60d971239ab1363c74)
I've read that naturalistic can be interchanged with scientific; they're essentially describing the same thing.
I'm often awed by the beauty of nature or the vastness of the sky above/universe. I just wouldn't describe that as a spiritual experience. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics.
I'm also not blind to the ugliness in nature. Have you ever seen the movie Antichrist? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/) Overall, it is a total gut punch, but what it does do well is hammer in the fact that nature is not just beauty; nature is also horrific ugliness and "cruelty."
It takes our magnificent human brains to focus on the beauty to the exclusion of the ugliness.
(How's that for an upper of a post? :) )
Quote from: Anne D. on April 25, 2012, 03:24:10 AM
I'm often awed by the beauty of nature or the vastness of the sky above/universe. I just wouldn't describe that as a spiritual experience. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics.
I'm also not blind to the ugliness in nature. Have you ever seen the movie Antichrist? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/) Overall, it is a total gut punch, but what it does do well is hammer in the fact that nature is not just beauty; nature is also horrific ugliness and "cruelty."
It takes our magnificent human brains to focus on the beauty to the exclusion of the ugliness.
(How's that for an upper of a post? :) )
No I haven't seen that movie, but I'll check it out.
You know, you're so right about humans focusing on the beauty most of the time, I never thought about it before( now that IS an upper ;)
I understand where you're coming from, for sure. I LOVE being out in nature, seeing the living, growing things, watching the sky and the water. I love the feeling of looking up and night, and contemplating the stars, and space. I feel an emotional connection to it all. If someone wants to call it 'naturalistic pantheism', to me that's kind of the same thing as saying "a healthy sense of awe and wonder". :) That's prettymuch what it boils down to, for me.
I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work. :P
Anyway, I feel like I do have an emotional/intellectual connection to the world and universe around me. I love wondering "are we the only ones out there?" and asking all the different fun questions.
I'd just stop short of calling it pantheism, secular or otherwise. :)
Jimmy--just a warning/heads-up if you do plan to watch the movie: have something fun/uplifting lined up afterward. To say it's a "downer" is a total understatement. It left me feeling yicky for days.
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work. :P
But...some of those events are creative events.
Anyways back to the original topic: I've even heard some people call themselves 'atheistic pantheists' to differentiate themselves from theistic ones, so maybe that would be the label I would take to describe my views. 'Pantheism' by itself and the nature is god/god is nature thing makes it sound like nature has a mind.
Not to mention it's almost religious-sounding, which wouldn't be correct either for me. It's not like I worship nature or feel the need to find something to worship.
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
I understand where you're coming from, for sure. I LOVE being out in nature, seeing the living, growing things, watching the sky and the water. I love the feeling of looking up and night, and contemplating the stars, and space. I feel an emotional connection to it all. If someone wants to call it 'naturalistic pantheism', to me that's kind of the same thing as saying "a healthy sense of awe and wonder". :) That's prettymuch what it boils down to, for me.
I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work. :P
Anyway, I feel like I do have an emotional/intellectual connection to the world and universe around me. I love wondering "are we the only ones out there?" and asking all the different fun questions.
I'd just stop short of calling it pantheism, secular or otherwise. :)
Oh, Asmo. You seem more poetic than usual. :)
Thanks everyone for the feedback I've gotten so far: You truly are an AWESOME Bunch!!!
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
Over the years I've been fine tuning both my outlook on the world around me AND the best description of that outlook. I find myself identifying philosophically to naturalism(not the naked kind ;) ) and I do not believe in gods and/or the supernatural, but I still have "spiritual" moments, in which I feel either connected to nature and/or the universe at large and have a complex set of emotions that are associated with those emotions; sometimes to the point that I draw tears(happy ones).
Don't worry. These fevers will pass. It's only your inferior human mind trying to make sense of a random, chaotic universe that is many times more huge and complex for you to understand. Try again in about 10,000 years. (obligatory lol)
Quote from: Jimmy on April 25, 2012, 04:45:25 PM
Thanks everyone for the feedback I've gotten so far: You truly are an AWESOME Bunch!!!
We know. ;D
;)
I understand "pantheism" to mean the accommodation of other gods as well as the ones you normally worship. Non-exclusivity of belief.
Some random thoughts: It's easy to feel wonder when looking at the sky at night. Why is it so hard to just let it be, instead of foisting your microscopic human definitions on the whole thing? Is the thought of your own insignificance humbling? It should be. You are far more insignificant that you can start to imagine. What evidence do you have, to make such clumsy, sentimental, ignorant assessments as "there is a controlling force" or "there must be a spiritual side to life"? Your humanistic arrogance is at the core of your species' limitations. After a few more apocalyptic asteroids and another, say, billion years, maybe the sentient cockroaches who survive will begin to understand, and become viable in a new and ever-changing universe.
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 12:45:18 AM
I understand "pantheism" to mean the accommodation of other gods as well as the ones you normally worship. Non-exclusivity of belief.
That would be (take your pick) henotheism (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/henotheism), myriotheism (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/myriotheism), or (possibly) polytheism (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism). Pantheism, on the other hand, is ". . . the view that 'God is everything and everything is God ... the world is either identical with God or in some way a self-expression of his nature'" (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/).
Thanks for the correction, Recusant.
Quote from: Anne D. on April 25, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
Jimmy--just a warning/heads-up if you do plan to watch the movie: have something fun/uplifting lined up afterward. To say it's a "downer" is a total understatement. It left me feeling yicky for days.
Anne, just watched AntiChrist and holy crap!!!! :o
Now I'm watching South Park in hopes of restoring humor back into my life.
WOW
Jimmy, hope the South Parks did the trick :)
I am interested by the insistence upon monist physicalism that appears in this worldview. I myself espouse a type of pluralist physicalism distinct from dualism. It stands upon the notion that different physical states manifest equally different psychological states. These plural states interact in much more complex ways than a monist would emphasize, and gives rise to the possibility of intellectual processes within intellectual processes at any and/or even compounded scale(s).
Quote from: RenegeReversi on April 29, 2012, 10:19:41 PM
I am interested by the insistence upon monist physicalism that appears in this worldview. I myself espouse a type of pluralist physicalism distinct from dualism. It stands upon the notion that different physical states manifest equally different psychological states. These plural states interact in much more complex ways than a monist would emphasize, and gives rise to the possibility of intellectual processes within intellectual processes at any and/or even compounded scale(s).
Howdy. Rickrocks here.
It occurs to me that (and tell me if this is what you're saying in the first place) humans, being one variable in whatever equation this is about, stand a good chance of nuts-ing the whole thing up. I mean human behavior is a bit like stumbling punch drunk through a mine field. I wonder if you can really predict what's going to happen, or even what's supposed to happen...have I stumbled upon any mines?
having spent years as a deeply spiritual christian, i find myself feeling the same sense of awe when i see a cracking landscape, a gorgeous flower, watching my veg grow, or looking at the stars.
i thought the world when awesome when i thought it had been created by a god, now its just FRICKIN AWESOME, if you know what i mean.
i'm starting to think that these feelings come from a similar place in the brain or something.
something a pagan (dont get me started) once told me; where there's good, there's bad.
the 'ugliness' of nature is still amazing, even if its how effective a twister destroys land, how snake venom works, or how a flesh eating virus, um, eats flesh. of course, i wouldnt wish these things on anyone, but i think they are a part of nature just the same as a pretty daisy.
i'm not very good at explaining what i mean, and i am by no means an academic.
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
I understand where you're coming from, for sure. I LOVE being out in nature, seeing the living, growing things, watching the sky and the water. I love the feeling of looking up and night, and contemplating the stars, and space. I feel an emotional connection to it all. If someone wants to call it 'naturalistic pantheism', to me that's kind of the same thing as saying "a healthy sense of awe and wonder". :) That's prettymuch what it boils down to, for me.
Anyway, I feel like I do have an emotional/intellectual connection to the world and universe around me. I love wondering "are we the only ones out there?" and asking all the different fun questions.
I'd just stop short of calling it pantheism, secular or otherwise. :)
Quote from: kitty on May 14, 2012, 01:17:44 PM
having spent years as a deeply spiritual christian, i find myself feeling the same sense of awe when i see a cracking landscape, a gorgeous flower, watching my veg grow, or looking at the stars.
i thought the world when awesome when i thought it had been created by a god, now its just FRICKIN AWESOME, if you know what i mean.
i'm starting to think that these feelings come from a similar place in the brain or something.
something a pagan (dont get me started) once told me; where there's good, there's bad.
the 'ugliness' of nature is still amazing, even if its how effective a twister destroys land, how snake venom works, or how a flesh eating virus, um, eats flesh. of course, i wouldnt wish these things on anyone, but i think they are a part of nature just the same as a pretty daisy.
i'm not very good at explaining what i mean, and i am by no means an academic.
I think you explained very well :)
The other side to it all is that things such as snake venom for instance - people use that to make medicine (a question of isolating the chemicals you want and checking the concentration). I...don't have a good one for flesh eating viruses though.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 14, 2012, 11:32:57 PM
Quote from: kitty on May 14, 2012, 01:17:44 PM
having spent years as a deeply spiritual christian, i find myself feeling the same sense of awe when i see a cracking landscape, a gorgeous flower, watching my veg grow, or looking at the stars.
i thought the world when awesome when i thought it had been created by a god, now its just FRICKIN AWESOME, if you know what i mean.
i'm starting to think that these feelings come from a similar place in the brain or something.
something a pagan (dont get me started) once told me; where there's good, there's bad.
the 'ugliness' of nature is still amazing, even if its how effective a twister destroys land, how snake venom works, or how a flesh eating virus, um, eats flesh. of course, i wouldnt wish these things on anyone, but i think they are a part of nature just the same as a pretty daisy.
i'm not very good at explaining what i mean, and i am by no means an academic.
I think you explained very well :)
The other side to it all is that things such as snake venom for instance - people use that to make medicine (a question of isolating the chemicals you want and checking the concentration). I...don't have a good one for flesh eating viruses though.
thanks :D yr very kind.
good point about the medicine, i think there's usually a silver lining in most clouds lol. and as for the flesh eating virus...at least the virus is doing well...