Burgeoning Atheism
It was a tiny drop of water, that led to a crack in the foundation.
That, in turn, led to a rotted base, which led to the collapse of the
structure. Much effort must be made to clear the debris, but the first
patch of ground has been turned.
I have decided to come out as an atheist. I have been roman catholic for most of my life, and now...I just don't know anymore. The whole story of Catholicism, I used to view as a beautiful mythology that was worth believing in, even if it sounded ludicrous. But now, it just sounds ludicrous. Ludicrous and ugly. I feel--like the standard beauty of the Papal See places strictures on what I can view as beautiful. And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired.
Wow, congratulations.
I have always pondered why there are so many Catholics, it seems much more restrictive than many other Christian flavours.
Things that I would have thought would push people away from Catholocism are:
- The infallibility claim of the church
- The insistence that females are unworthy of priesthood
- Follower's insistence that girls shouldn't be at the alter
- The persecution of homosexuals
- The guilt
- The restrictiveness on sex and sex education
- The insistence that IVF is immoral
- The seemingly incompatible view that the Adam and Eve story is literal but evolution is also factual.
I was a Catholic for a very long time. If you would like an ex-Catholic buddy to talk to, I'm always around. :)
I was also a Catholic for a very long time, and I understand the doubt you're facing right now. Same as DJ said, if you need someone, I'm also here.
The Church sets itself up as infallible -- if you don't belong to it specifically, never mind the rest of Christianity, they see you as lacking something intrinsic. If you ask questions, they throw one of their standard apologetics arguments out at you, and expect you to just be content with that, and "have faith" that the Church knows what it's doing, and knows what's best for you. You're expected to pledge unwavering devotion and support to the Pope, and if you don't, you're thought of as a sedevacantist and dismissed. Or if you question the hierarchy at all, you're considered an outright infidel unworthy of the Church, and therefore much more worthy of being excommunicated to "teach you a lesson". They even assure you that it's for your own good.
I'd say it's pretty obvious that they don't try too hard to keep people wanting to stay IN the church. Instead, they find loads of reasons to boot them out.
Ah, well. Once I was out (my own choice), I started asking more questions. Questions lead to critical thought, and that can only be a good thing. :)
Congrats. Sounds like this forum has thoroughly corrupted you in a good way :-D
Quote from: Firebird on April 20, 2012, 03:23:52 AM
Congrats. Sounds like this forum has thoroughly corrupted you in a good way :-D
And It's all your fault, dammit! ;D
I was a Catholic as well...devout to the T..coming out as an atheist was one of the most bittersweet moments of my life...And I'm here for chit chat if you need it :)
Congratulations on finding your way out from under the comfort blanket of institutionalised superstition known as religion. As you can see from the posts above you are not alone in your experiences. Spread your mind and enjoy your new found freedom. There's nobody looking over your shoulder now, in fact there never was.
Regards
Chris
Excellent move! You did the right thing, now there's only looking forward.
Good on you Semaestro. I've always had a particular dislike for the Catholic church since learning about their persecution of people like the Cathars in my youth, and then reading about their historical persecution of non-Christians and non-Catholics in my adulthood. They've been responsible for a hell of a lot of bloodshed and suffering throughout history.
Quote from: Tank on April 20, 2012, 08:17:36 AM
Congratulations on finding your way out from under the comfort blanket of institutionalised superstition known as religion. As you can see from the posts above you are not alone in your experiences. Spread your mind and enjoy your new found freedom. There's nobody looking over your shoulder now, in fact there never was.
Regards
Chris
It's funny, though. I don't know about anyone else here who's left the Catholic church or religion in general... but for me, it's taken (and is still taking) a long time to try and get over the feeling or idea that there's someone looking over your shoulder. I guess it gets ingrained in your head, "knowing" that God's watching everything you do or everything you think.
Coming out of that into atheism's been one of the most incredible experiences of my life... just to know that my thoughts ARE my own, nobody's reading my mind or judging me for the ideas in my head (unless I think something and then stupidly open my big mouth and broadcast it to all and sundry :D). But... It's liberating, to think what I'd like to think. Semaestro, I'm guessing right now, you're kinda feeling the same way?
Quote from: Stevil on April 20, 2012, 01:30:37 AM
Wow, congratulations.
I have always pondered why there are so many Catholics, it seems much more restrictive than many other Christian flavours.
Things that I would have thought would push people away from Catholocism are:
- The infallibility claim of the church
- The insistence that females are unworthy of priesthood
- Follower's insistence that girls shouldn't be at the alter
- The persecution of homosexuals
- The guilt
- The restrictiveness on sex and sex education
- The insistence that IVF is immoral
- The seemingly incompatible view that the Adam and Eve story is literal but evolution is also factual.
I don't think Catholic=Creationists. A lot of Catholics,certainly in Ireland, have also jettisoned the guilt,homophobia and sexual
self-loathing and practise a kind of fairly benign and tolerant Catholicism-lite. Given the hope that their beliefs provides and the consolation in bereavement and tragedy,I'd guess this is probably overall quite conducive to their psychological well-being and doesn't much adversely impact on others. It's almost a pity in a way it is such flagrant claptrap.
Some Catholics = Creationists. My Dad is one.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on April 20, 2012, 03:10:17 PM
Some Catholics = Creationists. My Dad is one.
He could still be a Catholic without being a Creationist. But fair play to him; if you are going to subscribe to gibberish you might as well go the whole hog.
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 20, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired
Not intending to encourage religiousity in any way, but do you think you could be religious/spiritual
without the Catholic church? I tried that for several years after jettisoning Xtianity and it ultimately didn't work, but it seems right for some people.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 20, 2012, 05:01:04 PM
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 20, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired
Not intending to encourage religiousity in any way, but do you think you could be religious/spiritual without the Catholic church? I tried that for several years after jettisoning Xtianity and it ultimately didn't work, but it seems right for some people.
Same here. I didn't go straight from Catholicism to agnosticism or atheism. I took several pitstops in more liberal forms of Christianity, and later just general spirituality. I think it's because I didn't want to entirely give up the spiritual "experiences", but it ultimately didn't work for me either. It definitely seems to work for some folks. Personally, I find I get a strong sense of awe or wonder whenever I spend time in nature - sunrises, sunsets, great scenery... it's that sense of being connected to the rest of the world, and I still get it, even as a non-religious person.
Quote from: Amicale on April 20, 2012, 05:14:22 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 20, 2012, 05:01:04 PM
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 20, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired
Not intending to encourage religiousity in any way, but do you think you could be religious/spiritual without the Catholic church? I tried that for several years after jettisoning Xtianity and it ultimately didn't work, but it seems right for some people.
Same here. I didn't go straight from Catholicism to agnosticism or atheism. I took several pitstops in more liberal forms of Christianity, and later just general spirituality. I think it's because I didn't want to entirely give up the spiritual "experiences", but it ultimately didn't work for me either. It definitely seems to work for some folks. Personally, I find I get a strong sense of awe or wonder whenever I spend time in nature - sunrises, sunsets, great scenery... it's that sense of being connected to the rest of the world, and I still get it, even as a non-religious person.
Count me in on this as well. I was, as I have stated previously here on HAF, ensconced in the charismatic/Pentecostal sector of Christianity for over a decade as a young person. It was a natural progression I suppose to turn to spirituality for a season. There existed this feeling of vulnerability walking away from what I had known and had faith in. So rather than jump off the cliff into nothing I simply grabbed onto a branch that was protruding out from the cliff. Eventually letting go altogether I experienced a freedom unlike anything Jesus had to offer. Still, however, I cannot seem to completely jettison the God deal. But hell, I watched a youtube video the other day where even Richard Dawkins said he is 99.99999% sure there is no God. I suppose I fit in there somewhere.
Even though I am pretty much on this road alone in my personal life (my family still holds to Christianity), I can personally attest to a new found peace of mind that if I were honest with myself I never possessed previously.
Hats off to you Semaestro!! Welcome home.
Quote from: En_Route on April 20, 2012, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on April 20, 2012, 03:10:17 PM
Some Catholics = Creationists. My Dad is one.
He could still be a Catholic without being a Creationist. But fair play to him; if you are going to subscribe to gibberish you might as well go the whole hog.
True enough.
Quote from: Amicale on April 20, 2012, 05:14:22 PM
Personally, I find I get a strong sense of awe or wonder whenever I spend time in nature - sunrises, sunsets, great scenery... it's that sense of being connected to the rest of the world, and I still get it, even as a non-religious person.
Same here -- I had that even when I was trying to be religious and it stayed with me after I quit trying. That's why I've always been baffled when people talk about the non-religious not believing in anything greater than themselves -- do they seriously not see all of this around them? I'd find it impossible to ignore, even if I wanted to.
Quote from: Truthseeker on April 20, 2012, 06:11:52 PM
Still, however, I cannot seem to completely jettison the God deal. But hell, I watched a youtube video the other day where even Richard Dawkins said he is 99.99999% sure there is no God. I suppose I fit in there somewhere.
That's me as well -- I think the idea of any kind of personal god is very improbable, but there may be some kind of thing out there, some energy or force behind it all, who knows? Certainly not me. That's not really enough to consider myself a theist, but if someone comes up with any real evidence, or a theory based on more than human ego and/or wishful thinking, I'm willing to consider the possibility.
Quote from: En_Route on April 20, 2012, 04:26:50 PM
He could still be a Catholic without being a Creationist. But fair play to him; if you are going to subscribe to gibberish you might as well go the whole hog.
I can't agree with that, I think there's a lot to be said in favor of cherry-picking.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc
That's me as well -- I think the idea of any kind of personal god is very improbable, but there may be some kind of thing out there, some energy or force behind it all, who knows? Certainly not me. That's not really enough to consider myself a theist, but if someone comes up with any real evidence, or a theory based on more than human ego and/or wishful thinking, I'm willing to consider the possibility.
You just hit on something that I think poses one of the main difference between non-believers and ensconced believers (like myself years ago). Funny, I have been thinking about this over the last few days. You are willing to consider the possibility that something exists that you do not believe in. When I was a believer that was not true for me in the least. I was most definitely not willing to consider anything in opposition to my beloved beliefs. I worshiped my belief. Honestly I suppose I paid more credence to the belief than I did Jesus and all the rest of it. Of course I did come around eventually. So I obviously was willing at some point to consider something different. But that was a baptism in fire process; long and arduous. My apologies if this seems as if I am high jacking the thread, but I just had to grab on to this one thought.
And yes, you and I are also in agreement that a personal intervening god is most improbable. I just do not see it. Taking an honest to goodness look, with an impartial eye, at the world and everything that it encompasses, I do not see it.
May I just say how refreshing it is to speak freely about these issues with those of a like mind.
Quote from: RenegeReversi on April 20, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
Burgeoning Atheism
It was a tiny drop of water, that led to a crack in the foundation.
That, in turn, led to a rotted base, which led to the collapse of the
structure. Much effort must be made to clear the debris, but the first
patch of ground has been turned.
I have decided to come out as an atheist. I have been roman catholic for most of my life, and now...I just don't know anymore. The whole story of Catholicism, I used to view as a beautiful mythology that was worth believing in, even if it sounded ludicrous. But now, it just sounds ludicrous. Ludicrous and ugly. I feel--like the standard beauty of the Papal See places strictures on what I can view as beautiful. And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired.
I grew tired of Catholicism, so tired.
Sit, stand, kneel, sit stand kneel for 25 years.
And all these funeral services, too many, simply too many. Leave me alone in my dreams. No longer need in-between'rs.
I'm so glad I raised my three kids without a single blessed drop falling on their forehead.
Thank you HAF. You remind me that I'm not alone. Oh and yes, there is a bible belt in Quebec.
Glad to have you here, ibm.
Quote from: ibm on April 30, 2012, 05:59:50 AM
Quote from: RenegeReversi on April 20, 2012, 01:10:40 AM
Burgeoning Atheism
It was a tiny drop of water, that led to a crack in the foundation.
That, in turn, led to a rotted base, which led to the collapse of the
structure. Much effort must be made to clear the debris, but the first
patch of ground has been turned.
I have decided to come out as an atheist. I have been roman catholic for most of my life, and now...I just don't know anymore. The whole story of Catholicism, I used to view as a beautiful mythology that was worth believing in, even if it sounded ludicrous. But now, it just sounds ludicrous. Ludicrous and ugly. I feel--like the standard beauty of the Papal See places strictures on what I can view as beautiful. And so, I have decided to stop. Just stop. I am tired of the Catholic church. Just tired.
I grew tired of Catholicism, so tired.
Sit, stand, kneel, sit stand kneel for 25 years.
And all these funeral services, too many, simply too many. Leave me alone in my dreams. No longer need in-between'rs.
I'm so glad I raised my three kids without a single blessed drop falling on their forehead.
Thank you HAF. You remind me that I'm not alone. Oh and yes, there is a bible belt in Quebec.
Catholicism is still very strong in Quebec, for sure.
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Eh. There are pockets of religiosity here to be sure, but none of the hardcore fundie religion the states has. American Christians seems very much to be its own entity. Most folks here are more liberal. I mean, politically, our Conservative Party probably lines up roughly with your Democrats. At least in my province, there very definitely is not the feel of being overwhelmed by religion. My friend's mom is a pastor who is well respected in her community for instance, and in the last 6 months, she's done 3 weddings for same-sex couples and nobody here blinked an eyelash - it's legal, it's normal, that's that.
There are probably a few religious loons though, sure. But they're the ones we laugh at. ;)
Just saw this. Congrats on throwing off the mantle of superstition. Your life will be better for it, I predict.
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 10:20:15 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Eh. There are pockets of religiosity here to be sure, but none of the hardcore fundie religion the states has. American Christians seems very much to be its own entity. Most folks here are more liberal. I mean, politically, our Conservative Party probably lines up roughly with your Democrats. At least in my province, there very definitely is not the feel of being overwhelmed by religion. My friend's mom is a pastor who is well respected in her community for instance, and in the last 6 months, she's done 3 weddings for same-sex couples and nobody here blinked an eyelash - it's legal, it's normal, that's that.
There are probably a few religious loons though, sure. But they're the ones we laugh at. ;)
Yeah, the states are far more...behind, especially in politics.
They're a few steps behind the Middle East.
I'll laugh with you. :)
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 10:20:15 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Eh. There are pockets of religiosity here to be sure, but none of the hardcore fundie religion the states has. American Christians seems very much to be its own entity. Most folks here are more liberal. I mean, politically, our Conservative Party probably lines up roughly with your Democrats. At least in my province, there very definitely is not the feel of being overwhelmed by religion. My friend's mom is a pastor who is well respected in her community for instance, and in the last 6 months, she's done 3 weddings for same-sex couples and nobody here blinked an eyelash - it's legal, it's normal, that's that.
There are probably a few religious loons though, sure. But they're the ones we laugh at. ;)
Hey! My brother's wife is also a pastor, Sunshine coast, British Columbia. But I haven't seen them in ages. They took one direction and I took the other.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Ehn, we aren't perfect, either. One incident that comes to mind is when there was a swine flu outbreak a couple of years ago up north on a Manitoba aboriginal reserve. The reserve leadership asked for medicine and the federal government sent them hand sanitizer and body bags. True story. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/story/2009/09/16/mb-ottawa-body-bags-manitoba.html). So the Canadian government is definitely capable of douchery.
But, I suppose, the grass is always greener. 90% of the time I really like it here.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 11:02:58 PM
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 10:20:15 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 08:42:03 PM
Canada's laws seem to be so peaceful, that i never gave it a second thought they had religious loons as well. :(
Eh. There are pockets of religiosity here to be sure, but none of the hardcore fundie religion the states has. American Christians seems very much to be its own entity. Most folks here are more liberal. I mean, politically, our Conservative Party probably lines up roughly with your Democrats. At least in my province, there very definitely is not the feel of being overwhelmed by religion. My friend's mom is a pastor who is well respected in her community for instance, and in the last 6 months, she's done 3 weddings for same-sex couples and nobody here blinked an eyelash - it's legal, it's normal, that's that.
There are probably a few religious loons though, sure. But they're the ones we laugh at. ;)
Yeah, the states are far more...behind, especially in politics.
They're a few steps behind the Middle East.
I'll laugh with you. :)
If you think the states are behind the middle east try living there. You really don't seem to appreciate how much better off you are for living in an technologically advanced 1st world country. Answer this question. How many Americans would rather live in Iraq than America and how many Iraqis would rather live in America than Iraq? I think it's fairly obvious who has the better life style and life opportunities. These differences are founded on the political systems of the two countries. In the states you have idiots standing for office and people are allowed to call them idiots without a real risk of being beaten up or killed. Try doing that in the middle east and see how long you stay free or alive.
Winston Churchill once said that democracy was the worst type of government, until you looked at the alternatives. If the system in the states is poor it's your fault because you are free, emancipated and are allowed to try to make a difference. Stop winging about how shit things are and do something about it.
[/rant]
((SD))
Great point, Tank. I've had a lot of experience getting to know/teaching people in Saudi Arabia, and they made it very clear to me that not only are they required to worship Allah, they're required to venerate/nearly worship their King, their head of state. Under no circumstances would they speak out against him or the rest of their government, even though I wasn't recording anything they were saying. They went under the assumption that anything they said and did online could and would be used against them by their own government. As far as they were concerned, atheists do not exist in that country, and neither do gay people. And if they do, they must keep their mouths shut if they'd like to continue living with their families in relative peace.
Once I heard that, I was profoundly reminded of how damned lucky I am to live in the culture I do.
Shit. That's crazy. :o
Agreed Tank. Whenever I hear Americans seriously bagging on the US, I always think "If things are so shitty here, isn't that our own fault and shouldn't we be doing something to fix it?" Certainly the US isn't perfect, but the "downside" of living in a democracy is that sometimes you're in the minority, and that sucks. But it's better than having no say at all.
Quote from: Tank on May 01, 2012, 07:59:20 AM
If you think the states are behind the middle east try living there. You really don't seem to appreciate how much better off you are for living in an technologically advanced 1st world country. Answer this question. How many Americans would rather live in Iraq than America and how many Iraqis would rather live in America than Iraq? I think it's fairly obvious who has the better life style and life opportunities. These differences are founded on the political systems of the two countries. In the states you have idiots standing for office and people are allowed to call them idiots without a real risk of being beaten up or killed. Try doing that in the middle east and see how long you stay free or alive.
Winston Churchill once said that democracy was the worst type of government, until you looked at the alternatives. If the system in the states is poor it's your fault because you are free, emancipated and are allowed to try to make a difference. Stop winging about how shit things are and do something about it.
[/rant]
((SD))
So true. We can even post on this website without worrying about the authorities taking us away for subversion or some such nonsense. SD, I respectfully disagree with you; while I certainly have issues with a lot of what goes on in this country, I think you're generalizing too much.
Quote from: Ali on May 01, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
Certainly the US isn't perfect, but the "downside" of living in a democracy is that sometimes you're in the minority, and that sucks. But it's better than having no say at all.
And it doesn't suck nearly as hard as being in the minority in many other places. Which isn't to say there's no room for improvement but we're starting from a much better spot than a lot of other poor slobs.