A friend of mine on Facebook posted an amusing photo of his 5yo daughter who was wearing nothing but a shower cap and standing on the sink to reach the towel cupboard. There was no 'exposure' and certainly nothing that could be considered suggestive or sexual. A couple of the comments were from his friends I didn't know suggesting that he shouldnt be posting such photos. I felt compelled to argue thus:
Sheesh - It's a naked little girl - get over it! Let's not exacerbate an already ridiculous situation by perpetuating the notion that naked = sexual. It's a sad world where we are compelled - by attitudes like these - to avoid the reality of our bodies. The longer this attitude is allowed to exist - and those like it - the more we are prisoners of our own culture. Amusing photo Rob. Love it!
I wonder what your thoughts are. Is it just a fact that in the current internet world we need to censor ourselves on theses things, or has society been so thoroughly brainwashed by media that our perception of the risk of photos being misappropriated has been distorted. Should we hide away like this, or feel free to enjoy images of our bodies in a non-sexual way?
I'd love to show you the photo - cute as it was, but I fear this might be considered a misappropriation.
If you post a decently cute pic on the Interwebs, there is always a chance that someone will steal it and wank to it or pretend to be the person on the picture. For that to happen, that person doesn't even need to be naked, but it also takes some doing on the part of the picture thief to make it into any kind of actual problem for you.
Personally, I don't mind nudity in photos, no matter the age of the person photographed and unless sex is suggested in the photo, I don't see it as sexually explicit.
A friend of mine and some of his buddies, for instance, were out skinny dipping one evening and one of them took a pic of another as he was running into the water. It was a great pic - I've rarely seen lighting like that in an amateur shot with a regular cheap ass camera, and that's how I think about it - not as "that pic of that guy's bum"
It was without the child's proper consent. I doubt when the kid turns 16 he/she would be over the moon about this image floating about in cyberspace.
Quote from: Stevil on March 24, 2012, 10:57:29 AM
It was without the child's proper consent. I doubt when the kid turns 16 he/she would be over the moon about this image floating about in cyberspace.
Why would he/she even care..?
I used to shower with my daughter but at some age, maybe six to eight I stopped it.
I heard her sadly ask her mother why, I don't remember the answer, probably something meaningless said in a serious tone.
Re: Posting phptos of your naked children - probably bums are OK.
We have bath photos with lots of bubbles, my wife took them, I wouldn't have dared.
Those perversely attracted to children cost us more than the obvious, they've smeared our enjoyment of children.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on March 24, 2012, 02:19:07 PM
I used to shower with my daughter but at some age, maybe six to eight I stopped it.
I heard her sadly ask her mother why, I don't remember the answer, probably something meaningless said in a serious tone.
Re: Posting phptos of your naked children - probably bums are OK.
We have bath photos with lots of bubbles, my wife took them, I wouldn't have dared.
Those perversely attracted to children cost us more than the obvious, they've smeared our enjoyment of children.
I agree. I remember a few years ago there was a "scandal" because a Dad posted some pictures of himself with his kids after their bath on Facebook. There was some nudity (the children's), but nothing explicit. It was also OBVIOUS that it was bath-time - everyone was wrapped in towels, wet hair, giggling. I thought the photos were sweet, but, apparently, some people thought it made the Dad a pervert.
I feel badly for fathers. No one bats an eye if I want to cuddle with my son, that's just good mothering. But I imagine Dad's with daughters must always be a little wary of how they're perceived. At least in this day and age.
I think it's important to be careful when posting any photo of a child on the internet. I think there are lots of opportunities for cute photos that those which could be looked at in a improper way can be kept in a viewing album for family and close friends only rather than sharing it with an extended network of friends who may not be known very well. I take a better safe than sorry approach when it comes to child safety.
Once something is on the internet it has a tendency to stick around for a long time and be passed around to people you never intended.
Being use to having to get consent for pictures with children in them in general; I'm glad you decided to not share the image because you presumably don't have consent and a non-parent sharing a nude image does start to seem a little odd considering that it's very rare to share images of other people's kids in general.
Quote from: Whitney on March 24, 2012, 04:32:18 PM
I think it's important to be careful when posting any photo of a child on the internet. I think there are lots of opportunities for cute photos that those which could be looked at in a improper way can be kept in a viewing album for family and close friends only rather than sharing it with an extended network of friends who may not be known very well. I take a better safe than sorry approach when it comes to child safety.
Once something is on the internet it has a tendency to stick around for a long time and be passed around to people you never intended.
Being use to having to get consent for pictures with children in them in general; I'm glad you decided to not share the image because you presumably don't have consent and a non-parent sharing a nude image does start to seem a little odd considering that it's very rare to share images of other people's kids in general.
^^^ This
Quote from: Asmodean on March 24, 2012, 11:18:22 AM
Quote from: Stevil on March 24, 2012, 10:57:29 AM
It was without the child's proper consent. I doubt when the kid turns 16 he/she would be over the moon about this image floating about in cyberspace.
Why would he/she even care..?
Teenagers can get embarrassed about their own nudity even if it was an old kiddie pic.
I'm always careful about taking photo's wondering if my kids would be happy about people looking at certain photo's of them.
Ok. All very reasonable.
Is the consensus then, that you are happy to post clothed pictures publicly, but not naked pictures? What about in knickers, or swim trunks? Hijabs?
I'm sure we share the same sentiments on the issue and both act accordingly. But what REALISTICALLY is the risk. Are there any statistics for misappropriation of genuinely innocent photos (as opposed to deliberately 'sexualised' images)? I don't know either. But do you consider that the reality of the predominance of 'innocent naked photos' being abused online is somewhat different to that perceived?
I completely understand and adhere to the 'better safe than sorry' notion. But its surely a shame to be confined in this way simply because of a potentially false perception. What's the alternative if we want to preserve the innocence of our photos? I don't suppose there is one. It's just another sickness of the modern age.
It is important to be careful (there's a reason you never see me using my son's name here) and parents should use judgement. But is the appropriate response to a parent who is maybe using less than stellar judgement to publicly shame them as a pervert? That article I mentioned, for instance - if the facebook friends of that father had looked at the pictures and said "Meh. I don't think I would have posted those pictures, but everything, realistically, looks pretty innocent." nothing would have come of it.
Instead, someone freaked, got the authorities involved and the pictures ended up being plastered all over the internet. Parents should be aware that that kind of thing can happen (and, again, I don't think I have any pictures of my son in the tub on Facebook), but pedophiles seem to be the witch hunt du jour. Just as parents should be cautious about what they post, I think everyone should be cautious about throwing "pervert" and "pedophile" towards parents.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 24, 2012, 07:13:57 PM
It is important to be careful (there's a reason you never see me using my son's name here) and parents should use judgement. But is the appropriate response to a parent who is maybe using less than stellar judgement to publicly shame them as a pervert? That article I mentioned, for instance - if the facebook friends of that father had looked at the pictures and said "Meh. I don't think I would have posted those pictures, but everything, realistically, looks pretty innocent." nothing would have come of it.
Instead, someone freaked, got the authorities involved and the pictures ended up being plastered all over the internet. Parents should be aware that that kind of thing can happen (and, again, I don't think I have any pictures of my son in the tub on Facebook), but pedophiles seem to be the witch hunt du jour. Just as parents should be cautious about what they post, I think everyone should be cautious about throwing "pervert" and "pedophile" towards parents.
This is a very good point. As much as I despise pedophiles, there have also been times when the authorities really went overboard. For example, there was the father who downloaded what he thought was music, found child porn, and immediately reported it to the authorities. Now he can't see his daughter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2110921/Council-bans-daughter-contact-Nigel-Robinson-child-porn-images.html). Reporting someone as a "pervert" with knowing all the facts can really harm someone's life.
I personally don't find the images you're describing as offensive, but I do think it shows less than stellar judgement for the reasons mentioned before. Not to mention that I would not want my naked baby pictures of myself out there for everyone to see, even at my age. Just my personal preference.
Since many of you are either European or have been to Europe, what do you think of parents letting their children run around naked on the beach for everyone to see? While it doesn't bother me, I was surprised to see how common it was. I do think this is much different from posting their pictures on the internet, however.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 24, 2012, 07:13:57 PM
It is important to be careful (there's a reason you never see me using my son's name here)
It is important. Even more so when talking about others. I have seen people posting information about someone else on the internet without that person's knowledge or prior approval.
I don't have kids, but as far as other people than myself go, I do not identify them by name, place of residence etc. where everyone can have access to that information unless permitted to do so. As far as posting pictures goes, to the best of my knowledge, around these parts you need the consent of everyone in focus in order to publish the pic.
I think the advent of social media sites like Facebook have changed people's perceptions of home photography, etc... It used to be that you only had to worry about mom busting out the old photo album for your prom date and embarrassing you with pictures of you covered in what may or may not be poop or taking a bath, etc.... Now, people create Facebooks for their babies and stuff and I find it a little weird. As a parent, you're creating an online persona and identity for your child before they're old enough to understand how it works. No one should have to worry about having a future prospective employer Googling them and discovering naked pictures of them as a child.
Bottom line, as an adult I'd imagine most of us would be a little ticked if our friends took pictures of us passed out with dicks drawn on our faces. Why you'd chose to possibly embarrass your child in a similar fashion by posting naked (albeit innocent) photos, etc... is beyond me. You don't get to decide for someone else what is or isn't embarrassing to them, and I think it's unfair to saddle kids with this before they're old enough to have a say in whether or not they're okay with those images of them being publicly available.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 24, 2012, 07:13:57 PM
It is important to be careful (there's a reason you never see me using my son's name here) and parents should use judgement. But is the appropriate response to a parent who is maybe using less than stellar judgement to publicly shame them as a pervert? That article I mentioned, for instance - if the facebook friends of that father had looked at the pictures and said "Meh. I don't think I would have posted those pictures, but everything, realistically, looks pretty innocent." nothing would have come of it.
Instead, someone freaked, got the authorities involved and the pictures ended up being plastered all over the internet. Parents should be aware that that kind of thing can happen (and, again, I don't think I have any pictures of my son in the tub on Facebook), but pedophiles seem to be the witch hunt du jour. Just as parents should be cautious about what they post, I think everyone should be cautious about throwing "pervert" and "pedophile" towards parents.
Quite right.
And I do wonder if it's the social stigma of being seen to be sympathising with pedophiles that forces some erstwhile rational people to over-compensate - and cry 'better safe than sorry' and 'shoot first, ask questions later'.
While I am forced to tow the line in accordance with socially acceptable public best-practice, I do not live in fear of being labelled simply because I loudly and proudly bathe with my 5yo and 8yo daughter and son. It's relaxed and fun and full of healthy loving bonding - they see it as a treat. It'll stop when I, or they feel uncomfortable. Otherwise I shall enjoy the together-time as much as going to the park or playing hide-and-seek or whatever... To forego this time I would see as detrimental to the upbringing of my children, and is, therefore, non-negotiable. If someone wants to put me in prison for that, so be it... and the world will go to shit...
I suppose there is no good reason with available software, actually, why we should be posting anything publicly that is only for the consumption of specific individuals (i.e grandparents, close friends etc...) anyway. But it is irksome that - in the case of my friends cute photo - it is jumped-on with hostility by some of his 'friends'. It seemed like knee-jerk reaction without giving any thought to context.
The 'consent' issue is a separate matter and is a fair censorship.
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 24, 2012, 08:30:06 PM
Bottom line, as an adult I'd imagine most of us would be a little ticked if our friends took pictures of us passed out with dicks drawn on our faces. Why you'd chose to possibly embarrass your child in a similar fashion by posting naked (albeit innocent) photos, etc... is beyond me. You don't get to decide for someone else what is or isn't embarrassing to them, and I think it's unfair to saddle kids with this before they're old enough to have a say in whether or not they're okay with those images of them being publicly available.
That's fair. But it's also, as a parent, hard to be perfectly logical about this sort of thing at all times. Our kids are really cute! We love them, love watching them grow and can't help but want to share that. I, for instance, live far away from my son's aunts/uncles/cousins and grandparents. We have no family in our City. Yes, I
could create an e-mail list to send pictures and videos, but it'd be cumbersome and hard to reference for people (there's no "tagging" feature, you can't see all of the pictures at once, etc. etc.).
And even then, how do I *know* which pictures my son will be ultimately be okay with? How do I *know* who he'd be comfortable sharing those pictures with? Maybe, when he grows up, he'll dislike one of his uncles or something, I can't really know what's fair game with any certainty. So what should I do? Tell my family "sorry, you don't get to see Wee Man's birthday/Christmas/Halloween pictures because I'm not sure how he'll feel about all of them once he's older"?
I'm sure some parents might go that route, and good for them, I guess. But, in the large scale of things, I'm willing to infringe, a little, on his right to privacy within reason (pretty much everyone on my Facebook list are people that I trust/talk to frequently - I don't have 700 random acquaintances and I don't post nudity or anything OBVIOUSLY embarrassing).
I think there's a difference between what you're describing, and some of the weird, gross, inappropriate overshares that end up as fodder for STFU Parents and whatnot. It also depends how you use social media-if you really are only friends with people you know and family, it's a little different than those folks who have 1,000 friends, some of whom they have no idea really who they are. Those are the scenarios that creep me out, is that people will frequently add people they don't actually know on Facebook, and who's to say that John Doe isn't really a pedophile?
But it goes back to what I said about social media changing things. Before, if your relatives wanted to see photos you had to mail them copies or bust out the album when they came to visit. People are now so obsessed with the instant gratification aspect-I had someone ask me where the pictures were literally the day after my wedding, and I had to ask them if they were kidding or not. And that's a whole separate issue, that might be a topic for another thread-with the advent of stuff like digital cameras, it makes it easy to take and quickly upload dozens upon dozens of photographs (some of horrifying quality). When developing pictures was a big deal and very expensive, people took photos selectively. I sometimes wonder if the availability of this kind of media has in some way cheapened the experiences we have-people are so concerned with taking pictures of little Bobby's 1st birthday that they aren't really an active participant in the event itself. When I see people who are parents who have literally hundreds of pictures of their kid up, I wonder whether they spend more time interacting with that kid or taking pictures of them.
That's also fair and I wonder the same thing too, sometimes, about parents documenting childhoods more than participating in them. I also have a cousin, who is on Facebook, but is VERY stringent about people not posting pictures of her. There were a whole slew of my sister's wedding photos (that my sister wanted me to post) that I didn't upload because I knew this particular cousin was sensitive about being in them. She also had a baby and didn't post a single picture of him for the first 8 months of his life. All different comfort levels, I suppose.
And, funnily enough, as we debated this here, my sister-in-law just posted on my husband's wall that she was going into "picture withdrawal" because we haven't posted pictures of our son in a while. ;D
Also, STFU parents is a good "reality-check" sometimes and I'd recommend it for parents everywhere.
Man, when I was a kid 25-30 yrs ago, my parents unashamedly took pics of me and my cousins and siblings taking baths together at various time and it SO funny to look back on. Now, I wouldn't dream of doing it to my kids..... Different world I guess.
Quote from: Jimmy on March 25, 2012, 04:04:47 AM
Man, when I was a kid 25-30 yrs ago, my parents unashamedly took pics of me and my cousins and siblings taking baths together at various time and it SO funny to look back on. Now, I wouldn't dream of doing it to my kids..... Different world I guess.
Definitely a very different world. The pics my parents took of me and my cousins were certainly harmless enough - running around in diapers while covered in what I was TOLD was chocolate pudding :D, or one picture of me and a cousin less than 6 years younger than me in a bathtub together, covered in bubbles. Those types of pictures are in photo albums, and to see them, you'd have to a) know us well and b) be trusted by us to see our old family pictures. Also c) you'd have to want to bother seeing them, and I can totally understand why many wouldn't want to. :P
With my daughter now, I'm careful what I take, and what I post. I love taking pictures, but when you spend more time focusing on the camera than enjoying an event, you've gone off track. As for her privacy, well, being that she's only nearly 4, I look at it more like considering our family's safety, not her privacy or mine per se. The less people online who could identify her, the better -- so I don't post pics on message boards/forums/parenting blogs, etc. I know some people do. That's totally cool for them. But part of the issue for me is, her dad has asked me NOT to do that stuff, and since we co-parent but live separately, I respect his wishes because I respect and like him, and trust that he's trying to be a good dad by asking me not to.
As for the whole 'should you post bathtub/other innocent no-clothes pics of kids for friends/family to see' - well, it's cute, and it's innocent, but I personally wouldn't. If friends and family want to see those pics just for fun to get a laugh out of them, they can come to my house and look at the pics on my computer when they're here. If they're out of town/province, then they'll just be stuck looking at the normal birthday pics/my kid hugging my cat, etc. With very tight privacy controls on Facebook, I might add. :)
Amicale, I agree, keep them private and away from prying eyes. You know(of course you wouldn't..lol)but I had a pic of my dad and I in the tub when I was about one. PERFECTLY innocent, maybe it's different because I have daughters and don't want to be seen as a perv, but I don't allow them in the tub with me at all. My oldest doesn't understand, she has no shame, which is good, but what should I say to her that wouldn't make her feel that way? I just tell her daddy needs privacy.... :P
Amicale, that last question wasn't intended to be directed toward you!! It' s for anyone....geesh
Quote from: Jimmy on March 25, 2012, 04:59:02 AM
Amicale, I agree, keep them private and away from prying eyes. You know(of course you wouldn't..lol)but I had a pic of my dad and I in the tub when I was about one. PERFECTLY innocent, maybe it's different because I have daughters and don't want to be seen as a perv, but I don't allow them in the tub with me at all. My oldest doesn't understand, she has no shame, which is good, but what should I say to her that wouldn't make her feel that way? I just tell her daddy needs privacy.... :P
Unfortunately, my own experience is as a woman raising a little girl, and so it's never seemed to be a big deal at all -- in fact, we shower together all the time. We don't have a bathtub in this place, and I'm not willing to let a pre-schooler shower alone. So, rather than run the shower for her and get soaking wet because I've stayed clothed, makes far more sense to hop in with her. And I see nothing wrong with it. It's mommy-daughter time. She has this 'bath crayon' thing that she delights in scribbling all over the shower walls with, and we make our hair stand up in crazy ways with shampoo, lol. All this to say, I understand how you feel.
And I really DO understand how you feel. There are some twisted freaks who would see ME as a perv if I told them I showered with my daughter, just because in actual adult relationships, I have relationships with women. So they make some insane leap from "you're a lesbian, you must like looking at your little girl!" to which I say "are you fucking nuts?!? She's a little girl. I'm only interested in ADULTS." and then I tend to drop those ignorant people from my life, if they're even in it. I mean, geeze, she's my daughter. So yeah, I understand and feel for moms and dads who worry about being seen as 'creepy' for doing something totally natural, innocent and normal.
And it's one more reason I stay away from cameras in circumstances like a little girl wrapped in a fluffy towel. I just don't need the headache of some moron going nuts over it.
Amicale, THANKS for sharing, really, and for the understanding:)
I definitely agree that if pics are to be taken, print them at home, and put them in an album and NOT online.
I think some people put overly personal things on facebook. I think those kinds of pictures belong in a family photo album instead of shared on the internet, as others have said.
I don't think there is anything wrong with parents showing/bathing with their children (gender doesn't matter either); just matters that the kids are okay with it since as they get older they tend to become embarrassed by their own nudity......but how often do you actually see that documented in photos? Even pre-internet it wasn't common to take photos of parent-child bath time; I've never seen them in a family photo album. So I don't think the internet is to blame for those kind of moments being taboo to share. Part of the reason family and close friends (we use to be given baths at friends houses...easier to just put everyone in the tub together) bath time is okay is because everyone is comfortable and secure with each other...sharing those moments can remove the security. The pedo/perv thing I think is a secondary consideration to keeping private moments private.
Quote from: Amicale on March 25, 2012, 05:57:10 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on March 25, 2012, 04:59:02 AM
Amicale, I agree, keep them private and away from prying eyes. You know(of course you wouldn't..lol)but I had a pic of my dad and I in the tub when I was about one. PERFECTLY innocent, maybe it's different because I have daughters and don't want to be seen as a perv, but I don't allow them in the tub with me at all. My oldest doesn't understand, she has no shame, which is good, but what should I say to her that wouldn't make her feel that way? I just tell her daddy needs privacy.... :P
Unfortunately, my own experience is as a woman raising a little girl, and so it's never seemed to be a big deal at all -- in fact, we shower together all the time. We don't have a bathtub in this place, and I'm not willing to let a pre-schooler shower alone. So, rather than run the shower for her and get soaking wet because I've stayed clothed, makes far more sense to hop in with her. And I see nothing wrong with it. It's mommy-daughter time. She has this 'bath crayon' thing that she delights in scribbling all over the shower walls with, and we make our hair stand up in crazy ways with shampoo, lol. All this to say, I understand how you feel.
And I really DO understand how you feel. There are some twisted freaks who would see ME as a perv if I told them I showered with my daughter, just because in actual adult relationships, I have relationships with women. So they make some insane leap from "you're a lesbian, you must like looking at your little girl!" to which I say "are you fucking nuts?!? She's a little girl. I'm only interested in ADULTS." and then I tend to drop those ignorant people from my life, if they're even in it. I mean, geeze, she's my daughter. So yeah, I understand and feel for moms and dads who worry about being seen as 'creepy' for doing something totally natural, innocent and normal.
And it's one more reason I stay away from cameras in circumstances like a little girl wrapped in a fluffy towel. I just don't need the headache of some moron going nuts over it.
I can totally empathize with you,,Ami.
I see a lot of gay men go through the same stigma of "you shouldnt adopt because you are unfit to be a parent."
Since when dud being a homosexual fucking translate into pedophile??
As far as posting naked photos of kids on the net; I dont have anything against it, but I do find it distasteful. The internet is forever, and as others already pointed out, naked photos can end upon the wrong hands online.
I dont really think its okay to take any naked pics without consent anyway; parent or no parent.
Thanks SD, good points :)
Well, with my daughter, she's a little camera hog. She looooooves the camera. What that usually means is she'll take dozens and dozens of pictures of random stuff - cat, coffee cup, shoes, herself. :D So with her, I'm quite sure she'd give her consent to damned near anything.... so it's a good thing that I happen to think she's not old enough to know what the heck she's doing when she gives consent, and I get to make those decisions for her. When she's in highschool, she can buy a digital camera or fancy camera phone with her own money (or whatever the heck they'll have on the market in 10 years).... but if she makes dumb decisions and posts suggestive pictures of herself online or texts them to boys, she'll be grounded until she's older than I am now. :D
Quote from: Amicale on March 27, 2012, 12:10:28 AM
Thanks SD, good points :)
Well, with my daughter, she's a little camera hog. She looooooves the camera. What that usually means is she'll take dozens and dozens of pictures of random stuff - cat, coffee cup, shoes, herself. :D So with her, I'm quite sure she'd give her consent to damned near anything.... so it's a good thing that I happen to think she's not old enough to know what the heck she's doing when she gives consent, and I get to make those decisions for her. When she's in highschool, she can buy a digital camera or fancy camera phone with her own money (or whatever the heck they'll have on the market in 10 years).... but if she makes dumb decisions and posts suggestive pictures of herself online or texts them to boys, she'll be grounded until she's older than I am now. :D
LOL :D
You sound like a great parent, Amicale.
It's crazy how techonolgy and social media has changed everything.
Those who refuse to change with it-- well, I feel sorry for them.
I've always wondered about child pornography/child sexuality. For example, sexuality in children was a normal part of society, would children think of themselves as being victims? And if the children didn't think of themselves as victims, and the society didn't, would they still be victims? Of course, I say this because as a child I had a bit of a sexual encounter with a priest, but looking back on the event I can't recall ever thinking about it in a negative light. To this day I am interested in the psychology behind such events, and I always find myself thinking about the effect of my surrounding culture growing up on my perception of the encounter. For example, if the priest and I had been in upstate new york, the reaction of the people might have been very different. Would that have affected me?
I honestly don't know.
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 27, 2012, 01:57:35 AM
I've always wondered about child pornography/child sexuality. For example, sexuality in children was a normal part of society, would children think of themselves as being victims? And if the children didn't think of themselves as victims, and the society didn't, would they still be victims? Of course, I say this because as a child I had a bit of a sexual encounter with a priest, but looking back on the event I can't recall ever thinking about it in a negative light. To this day I am interested in the psychology behind such events, and I always find myself thinking about the effect of my surrounding culture growing up on my perception of the encounter. For example, if the priest and I had been in upstate new york, the reaction of the people might have been very different. Would that have affected me?
I honestly don't know.
It's a question of consent, full cognizance of one's actions, and power dynamics (ie, between an adult and a child). Sexual play among children (ie, two kids playing 'doctor') is going to be looked at way, way differently than sexuality between an adult and a child, and rightly so. Often, children who are abused DON'T think of themselves as victims while it's happening, because the adult in question convinces them that it's OK, or 'normal' or 'a little secret', or 'no big deal', and so they learn from their abusers not to see themselves as victims. And only a generation or two ago, children who went home and said 'mom and dad, so and so hurt me', most often they wouldn't be believed, and would be accused of making it up -- in some cases, kids' parents or police officers refused to believe they were abused, and therefore refused to see them as victims either.
If someone is sexually assaulted against their consent, when they are not fully mentally/emotionally/physically mature enough to comprehend their actions, and when there's an imbalance of power between parties (adult/child, caregiver/cared for, student/teacher), then whether or not it's recognized that the person taken advantage of is a victim, they most certainly are.
Renege, I'm really sorry to hear that you were taken advantage of, as a child. Shame on the person who violated your trust.
I think there is something of a gray area, but it's hard to examine scientifically, or even talk about anecdotally, because it's so taboo. I do think that sexuality is part of the human experience, even from an early age. Obviously, how an adult experiences sexuality is far different from how a child experiences it, but, like Amicale said, it's impossible to ignore the power dynamic that comes into play when you have an adult/child sexual relationship. Adults simply has more tools at their disposal to manipulate and control the children they're involved with. Whether that manipulation leaves the child feeling damaged down the road can be hard to determine, I'd think. I don't think it's something worth gambling with, personally.
Hmm...this is really interesting. The idea of an unequal power struggle never occured to me. Huh.
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 27, 2012, 05:38:27 AM
Hmm...this is really interesting. The idea of an unequal power struggle never occured to me. Huh.
Not so much an unequal power struggle but an unequal balance of power which automatically puts the child, even if a willing participant, at a disadvantage that they're not in a position to deal with the way an adult could. That makes any sexual exchange between a child and an adult unfair at the very least and damaging at the worst.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 27, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 27, 2012, 05:38:27 AM
Hmm...this is really interesting. The idea of an unequal power struggle never occured to me. Huh.
Not so much an unequal power struggle but an unequal balance of power which automatically puts the child, even if a willing participant, at a disadvantage that they're not in a position to deal with the way an adult could. That makes any sexual exchange between a child and an adult unfair at the very least and damaging at the worst.
Agreed. The bottom line is that sex between an adult and a child can never be truly consensual in the way it should be between adults.
There's also a large body of evidence showing how harmful such an experience is for the child psychologically, such as an increased tendency for drug abuse, depression, suicide, etc. It's not just perception of the child being a victim, they have been shown to be victims based on the way they struggle later in life. Their bodies are taken advantage of and they don't have the maturity to say no to that exploitation, which causes them to feel shame.
It really blows my mind to discover how many people get off on child pornography. How can so many people not be naturally revolted by the idea of looking at that or abusing a child in that way? Just seems so bizarre to me.
Quote from: Tank on May 27, 2012, 11:32:44 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 27, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 27, 2012, 05:38:27 AM
Hmm...this is really interesting. The idea of an unequal power struggle never occured to me. Huh.
Not so much an unequal power struggle but an unequal balance of power which automatically puts the child, even if a willing participant, at a disadvantage that they're not in a position to deal with the way an adult could. That makes any sexual exchange between a child and an adult unfair at the very least and damaging at the worst.
Agreed. The bottom line is that sex between an adult and a child can never be truly consensual in the way it should be between adults.
Yeah :(
Mentally someone under the age of 16 or so just isnt developed mentally to understand the actions of sexual encounters.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 28, 2012, 11:48:41 PM
Quote from: Tank on May 27, 2012, 11:32:44 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 27, 2012, 06:46:39 AM
Quote from: RenegeReversi on May 27, 2012, 05:38:27 AM
Hmm...this is really interesting. The idea of an unequal power struggle never occured to me. Huh.
Not so much an unequal power struggle but an unequal balance of power which automatically puts the child, even if a willing participant, at a disadvantage that they're not in a position to deal with the way an adult could. That makes any sexual exchange between a child and an adult unfair at the very least and damaging at the worst.
Agreed. The bottom line is that sex between an adult and a child can never be truly consensual in the way it should be between adults.
I agree with the sentiment, but regret the choice of the phrase "bottom line".
Quote from: Firebird on May 28, 2012, 09:17:59 PM
It really blows my mind to discover how many people get off on child pornography. How can so many people not be naturally revolted by the idea of looking at that or abusing a child in that way? Just seems so bizarre to me.
And then there's the practical consideration of actually finding anything about a child sexually attractive. Even teenagers usually aren't alluring.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtcEven teenagers usually aren't alluring.
Boys may be unattractive to older women, but believe me, it's a different story with men and teenage girls!
Quote from: OldGit on May 29, 2012, 10:58:39 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtcEven teenagers usually aren't alluring.
Boys may be unattractive to older women, but believe me, it's a different story with men and teenage girls!
Why though? I don't think I'll ever understand why men find girls attractive, as compared to women. Maybe it's just my own vanity speaking, but when I think about myself in my late teens/early 20's vs me now, in my thirties, I think there's no comparison. Sure, I may have been a little skinnier when I was a teen, but my experience tells me that having a "perfect" body is completely unnecessary in arousing interest. As an adult woman, I still have the best parts of me when I younger (my intelligence, my sense of humor) but I also have a confidence and awareness of my own sexuality that was lacking when I was young. I honestly do not understand what a man would want with a girl if he could have a woman.
Maybe a girl is easier to get than a woman. It is the norm nowadays to lose one's virginity in their late teens, so a teenager would probably be pressured to have sex with someone so they are not seen as different. This would make it easy for the older men to find girls to have sex with. I mean, old horndog has sex, young girl no longer has to worry about losing her virginity. Everybody's happy, right?
Not that I agree with this, I am just trying to get a picture of why they do what they do.
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:49:56 PM
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
From my dim recollections of such matters, it usually requires two people (at least) to participate in a one- night stand.
Quote from: En_Route on May 29, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:49:56 PM
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
From my dim recollections of such matters, it usually requires two people (at least) to participate in a one- night stand.
...Unless you do it with your
other hand, just for the heck of it :P
Quote from: Asmodean on May 29, 2012, 06:31:43 PM
Quote from: En_Route on May 29, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:49:56 PM
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
From my dim recollections of such matters, it usually requires two people (at least) to participate in a one- night stand.
...Unless you do it with your other hand, just for the heck of it :P
I wonder how Righty would feel about that if she found out you were cheating on her with Lefty. :P
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 29, 2012, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 29, 2012, 06:31:43 PM
Quote from: En_Route on May 29, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:49:56 PM
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
From my dim recollections of such matters, it usually requires two people (at least) to participate in a one- night stand.
...Unless you do it with your other hand, just for the heck of it :P
I wonder how Righty would feel about that if she found out you were cheating on her with Lefty. :P
She wouldn't give a toss.
I just got out of work and this is what i come home to. XDD
Quote from: En_Route on May 29, 2012, 07:21:39 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on May 29, 2012, 06:34:14 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on May 29, 2012, 06:31:43 PM
Quote from: En_Route on May 29, 2012, 06:03:37 PM
Quote from: Ali on May 29, 2012, 05:49:56 PM
That probably holds some weight, Buddy. I just read an article about a study that shows men are attracted to women that seem more vulnerable to being taken advantage of, sexually. If you define "attracted to" as "wanting to have a one night stand with." ::) Men!
From my dim recollections of such matters, it usually requires two people (at least) to participate in a one- night stand.
...Unless you do it with your other hand, just for the heck of it :P
I wonder how Righty would feel about that if she found out you were cheating on her with Lefty. :P
She wouldn't give a toss.
...And what's a guy to do THEN?! :o