Its fitting that my first thread be about my namesake so here goes :)
Obviously we know that the coming of Jesus was prophesied, something along the lines of a man will be present around a certain time in history, to be the ultimate king unite the world in peace and it was generally believed that he would be the son of god and after death rise to the heavens himself. At the time there were lots of people that believed they were Prophesied as well as Jesus. Herod Agrippa a decade or so after for instance. But what we have today is the legacy of Jesus.
The thing is, at the time there was a person who in my opinion fit the prophecy a lot better:
King of kings - As the first Emperor of Rome, Augustus had effectively united the known world under one man, with the influence of the empire sometimes being held under Client Kings who ruled with Roman ideals and goals in mind.
Unite the world in peace- Under Augustus the empire had one of its longest periods of uninterrupted peace.
Son of God- Augustus's adopted father, Julius Caesar was deified after death, effectively making Augustus son of a god.
Become a God- After death, Augustus was deified himself.
Augustus was alive and well at the time Jesus was born.
His legacy of an Imperial Rome lasted till the death of the Roman empire, and by extension to the Death of the Byzantine empire in 1453.
Well thats enough of me rambling, would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Yes, yes, Augustus was a good ruler, but could he turn water to wine?
;)
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
Well thats enough of me rambling, would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Did significant numbers of people know of Jesus when he was alive (supposedly alive)?
There are no documented evidence, no stories or anything from the time Jesus was alive, only fables decades after.
His life at the time was seemingly insignificant.
There's way more evidence for Augustus having been alive, so I know where I'll be placing my bets.
You make a good arguement. I think I will do some research on this Agustus, as i'm pretty sure I can find actual historic info on.him, unlike the other guy.
:D
He sounds interesting.
Also he was played by Brian Blessed in a BBC drama, Jesus can't beat that ;)
An interesting thought to be sure, but all just musings until one can present evidence that there is any such thing as prophesy.
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 22, 2012, 09:07:57 AM
An interesting thought to be sure, but all just musings until one can present evidence that there is any such thing as prophesy.
ditto, I don't think there was any prophecy of Jesus. I think the writers of the gospels wrote a few bits into the Jesus story that corresponded to things written in the books of the Jewish prophets then claimed they were prophecy. Easily done.
Augustus had a more peaceful death - he was probably poisoned be his wife Livia, which for a Roman Emperor counts as natural.
Now if you want a real emperor/god, try Caligula.
I liked Richard Burton and Liz Taylor better.
Quote from: Augustus on March 22, 2012, 07:20:19 AM
Also he was played by Brian Blessed in a BBC drama, Jesus can't beat that ;)
I've always had a soft spot for Nero, but he was badly portrayed by Christopher Biggins in
I Claudius. I haven't read the book, but I thought the TV show was pretty cheesy.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on March 22, 2012, 11:48:48 AM
Quote from: Augustus on March 22, 2012, 07:20:19 AM
Also he was played by Brian Blessed in a BBC drama, Jesus can't beat that ;)
I've always had a soft spot for Nero, but he was badly portrayed by Christopher Biggins in I Claudius. I haven't read the book, but I thought the TV show was pretty cheesy.
John Hurt seemed to do Caligula pretty well though, that series really did have a good cast
Quote from: Augustus on March 22, 2012, 03:24:56 PM
John Hurt seemed to do Caligula pretty well though, that series really did have a good cast
definite, I did like John Hurt as Caligula. They just portrayed Nero as a fat wet mummy's boy who played his lyre while Rome burned, which of course never actually happened (the lyre bit)
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Does Augustus still have 2,000,000,000 people who think he is divine? Did his kingdom last 2000 years? Depends on your perspective regarding who accomplished more or less. For me, Jesus existed and accomplished exactly what he intended to accomplish, which was to offer reconciliation between humankind and God.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Does Augustus still have 2,000,000,000 people who think he is divine? Did his kingdom last 2000 years?
Augustus didn't have Jesus' spin doctors or agents.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Does Augustus still have 2,000,000,000 people who think he is divine? Did his kingdom last 2000 years?
Well technically 1480 years so almost ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Does Augustus still have 2,000,000,000 people who think he is divine? Did his kingdom last 2000 years? Depends on your perspective regarding who accomplished more or less. For me, Jesus existed and accomplished exactly what he intended to accomplish, which was to offer reconciliation between humankind and God.
Jesus is King Nothing.
He never had a kingdom, if he did exist he was simply yet another crazy unshaven bare foot preacher, pedaling the streets hoping someone would notice.
They are a dime a dozen.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 22, 2012, 05:57:56 PM
Augustus didn't have Jesus' spin doctors or agents.
Perhaps not, but then one must ask "why not"? Think of the material resources Augustus had compared to Jesus. He just didn't inspire the kind of enduring loyalty that Jesus did. He didn't have what it took as a god. Jesus started small and grew big. Augustus started big and fizzled.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2012, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 22, 2012, 05:57:56 PM
Augustus didn't have Jesus' spin doctors or agents.
Perhaps not, but then one must ask "why not"? Think of the material resources Augustus had compared to Jesus. He just didn't inspire the kind of enduring loyalty that Jesus did. He didn't have what it took as a god. Jesus started small and grew big. Augustus started big and fizzled.
Jesus started and ended small. Then his deciples started spinning tales.
As far as I know, Messianism is uniquely Jewish; hijacked and subverted by Christianity and Islam. The requirements for the Messiah are:
1) Peace among all nations (Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3)
2) Perfect harmony and abundance in nature (Isaiah 11:6-9) (but some interpret this as an allegory for peace and prosperity)
3) All Jews return from exile to Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5)
4) Universal acceptance of the Jewish God and Jewish religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; 66:23; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9)
5) No sin or evil; all Israel will obey the commandments (Zephaniah 3:13; Ezekiel 37:24)
6) Reinstatement of the Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-27)
So far, no religious, ideological, supernatural, governmental or secular entity has come close to these requirements.
Yeah, I think 'messiah' just means 'the annointed', and in biblical terms it originally referred to the king of Israel / Judah, who was the annointed/'messiah' of Yahweh. It actually appears very few times in the Old Testament, and when it does it invariably refers to a king, and pretty much always to the mythical / legendary trio of Saul, David and Solomon.
After the kingdom of Judah fell and the Jews no longer had a king I guess they had to change what the word / idea referred to. The idea of a future messiah that would usher in some world age / judgement is actually quite a late post-biblical development in Judaism, and there are no prophecies about it in the Hebrew Bible because the idea didn't exist when the Old Testament was written.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 22, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: Augustus on March 21, 2012, 10:00:46 PM
would be nice to see Christians might think of this, given that Jesus was not by any means the only one regarded as the King of Kings at the time and (arguably) accomplished a lot less compared to Augustus. :)
Does Augustus still have 2,000,000,000 people who think he is divine? Did his kingdom last 2000 years? Depends on your perspective regarding who accomplished more or less. For me, Jesus existed and accomplished exactly what he intended to accomplish, which was to offer reconciliation between humankind and God.
"Don't underestimate the power of mythology"
Because billions follow said mythology doesn't correlate to that mythology being factual. Hinduism is one of the oldest religions and is practiced all over the world and is the third largest religion at the moment, it has probably had the most amount of followers in a historical sense, many people that aren't Hindus are effected by the culture of the religion even if they do not realise it, all of that doesn't mean its any more true than Celtic mythology.