I'm reading a book called The Great Transformation: The Beginning of Religious Traditions and it states the following:
"In the Old Middle Eastern Theology, El had appointed a god to each of the nations. Yahweh was the holy one of Isreal; Chemosh the holy one of Moab; and Milkom the holy one of Ammon."
Does anyone know if this is true? Where does one get such information? There isn't a citation in the book and so I was wondering where I could confirm this information. I would also like to read more on this topic. Can anyone recommend a good book covering the topic of the origins of Yahweh?
Thanks!
I don't have any books at hand, however there is are some promising videos on YouTube:
A two part series by the user Evid3nc3 (unfortunately the four parted response by another user, itsthesuperfly, no longer exists, as he has closed his account. It was both well informed, as well as using a number of written sources), based largely on a book by Karen Armstrong called "A History of God"
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg)
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPfFx9JTQl8&feature=related)
And I also found a History Channel (take it as you will) documentary, staring the author herself
A History of God - History Channel (A&E) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL0_jWrJHvs&feature=related)
I personally haven't read the book or seen the HC doc, but I can vouch for Evid3nc3's video. He also lists a number of other resources, so hopefully that gives you a start :)
Cool, thanks! I'll check those out ;D
funnily enough, I've been reading quite a few books on this exact subject and was going to do a thread on pretty much the same thing at some point when I was a little less busy (work's pretty hectic at the mo).
Probably the best book I've read on the subject is by Mark S.Smith, The Early History of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Early_History_of_God)
But yeah, the Israelites started off as Canaanites and worshipped gods like El, Baal and Asherah. At some point they adopted Yahweh into their pantheon as a warrior god, and under the monarchy he became the national god of Israel / Judah, sometime around the ninth century BCE. The statement about national gods is true, Ammon had Moloch, Edom had Kaus, Moab had Kemosh, Israel and Judah had Yahweh. These small kingdoms were mirroring the great empires of the age, Babylon had Marduk as its national creator god, and Assyria had Ashur.
The idea of El apportioning the nations out to various god appears in the Bible, in Deuteronomy 32.8-9,
'When the the Most High (El-yon) gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance.'
(Jacob is a personalisation of Israel in the Old Testament)
The Old Testament was written by priests of Yahweh who represented a particularly intolerant strand that opposed the worship of these other Israelite gods, and a large part of the Old Testament was written in the 7th Century BCE under the auspices and rule of the particularly intolerant Yahwistic kings Hezekiah and Josiah.
Yahweh himself is believed to have originated in Edom (northern Saudi Arabia). El would have been the original chief god of the Israelites, he was the chief god of the Canaanites, and their name Isra-El derives from his. Many of the characteristics and language of El were absorbed into Yahweh as he became the main god of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel.
Interesting. I found the book you mentioned at the library. Thanks!
I remember watching a BBC documentary by Francesca Stavrakopoulou that from what i remember mentioned that if you trace it waaaaay back it all started from an Ethiopian tribe that worshiped Poseidon (cant remember if they said Poseidon eventually turned into El or Yahweh). I find it funny how in the bible he claims to be the only true god, yet comes from a large family of Deities ;)
Maybe Yahweh was just jealous that he wasn't in charge so decided to make his own religion and pretend Zeus and that lot didn't exist? ;D
Just as I was absorbed into this interesting topic...someone comes along and derails it...*sigh*
Great topic Asherah...and great replies to the topic TFL and HG
yeah, it's a really interesting topic. I think once you realise that the Christian 'God' is in fact a 3000 year old western Semitic warrior god called Yahweh, he kind of loses any power he might hold over you, and the whole religion starts to look rather ridiculous.
Quote from: Gawen on March 23, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Just as I was absorbed into this interesting topic...someone comes along and derails it...*sigh*
Great topic Asherah...and great replies to the topic TFL and HG
Derail removed to derail thread.
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: Gawen on March 23, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Just as I was absorbed into this interesting topic...someone comes along and derails it...*sigh*
Great topic Asherah...and great replies to the topic TFL and HG
Derail removed to derail thread.
good move! I've noticed there are quite a few of arian's posts there. I do like the way the thread radomly jumps from derail to derail making a nice surreal read
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: Gawen on March 23, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Just as I was absorbed into this interesting topic...someone comes along and derails it...*sigh*
Great topic Asherah...and great replies to the topic TFL and HG
Derail removed to derail thread.
Thanks muchly...
I'd suggest Karen Armstrong's A History of God.
FTL, which god was it then, that made the never ending covenants with the ancient Hebrews?
Quote from: Gawen on April 05, 2012, 01:26:52 PM
FTL, which god was it then, that made the never ending covenants with the ancient Hebrews?
That's a good question. I'd assume Yahweh, as most of the Hebrew Bible is a product of the priests of Yahweh, written from the 8th century BCE onwards. Plus a large part of it was written by intolerant Yahwists who were trying to promote this supposed covenant between Yahweh and Israel / Judah as reason for Israelites only worshipping their god, and as justification for the persecution and murder of followers of other Israelite/Canaanite deities.
Having said that, one of the epithets of El was
El Berit 'El of the Covenant', so I imagine Yahweh derived his status as the god of the covenant from El. El could well have been the god of the covenant for the Israelites prior to the 8th/9th centuries BCE and the earliest writings in the Bible, particularly as they also derive their name from him.
Interesting. I'll look into it a bit deeper. The next question would be, if El is the "most high" and Yahweh is the almost "most High", then who spawned Jesus?
I've been reading up on this topic and, it seems that the Isrealites took the attributes of El and blended that with their god, Yahweh. So, the two some how became one. I don't really understand it. And, the Hebrew Bible tends to use El and Yahweh to refer to the same god. So, god (a.k.a. Yahweh and El) spawned Jesus.
Quote from: Gawen on April 06, 2012, 01:22:40 PM
Interesting. I'll look into it a bit deeper. The next question would be, if El is the "most high" and Yahweh is the almost "most High", then who spawned Jesus?
I'd say Yahweh, as the polytheistic Israelites had become monotheistic Jews by then, and their previous worship of El, Baal or Asherah was something in their distant past. Many of the attributes of Yahweh derive from El, but quite a few also may derive from Baal, who was probably the god most similar to Yahweh (hence the Yahwistic writers of the Hebrew Bible appear to detest Baal more than any other deity), and maybe some from Asherah too, his possible one-time consort
But there is a problem. Well at least I think so. The Bible says that El was the big cheese. And like FTL said, the lesser gods were sent by El to the various 'nations', one of which is Yahweh. The biggest problem is that theists have deluded themselves into thinking El and Yahweh are the same god. I noticed this over the weekend while researching the El/Yahweh/Asherah/Baal thing on the internet. (BTW, there is very little on this subject not written by Christian apologists) Another problem minor as it is, the Bible states God does not change. I think you get my meaning here.
The only way I can break it down is:
El is the most high creator god. Rather deistic in nature.
Yahweh is a minor god, an inferior of El and sent by El.
The Jews supplanted El with Yahweh. Why? Why is the Creator God forgotten or simply pushed aside or no longer worshiped in favour of the minor god the Creator god sent? Where the break is in the Bible, I haven't a clue. However, we know Yahweh is a vain and jealous god. By taking the thrown away from El, does this not make Yahweh worse than Lucifer/Satan...in that Yahweh actually succeeded?
Now, I can't remember what exactly is written (but I'm with your opinions); which god spawned Jesus. At any rate, it doesn't matter which god did the deed because it would nevertheless equate Jesus on the order of Achilles - a hero.
As far as I know, none of the heroes of the Greek, Mesopotamian, and Roman pantheons were gods, although many had some sort of superhuman attribute/s...is that right?
I wouldn't necessarily say El was deistic in nature, he was more the chief god who mirrored the king on Earth. El and Yahweh are definitely two distinct deities, although i can see how Christian apologists might try and fudge the issue by claiming they're one and the same god.
The evidence suggests Yahweh started off as a warrior / storm god, very similar to Baal, but he was adopted by some of the kings of Israel and Judah as the national god and patron deity of the royal family. In the 7th Century BCE a few of the kings were devout Yahwists and persecuted the followers of the other Israelite gods, and tried to promote Yahweh to being the only god Israel should worship. A lot of the Bible was written by these Yahwists, they're the kings the Book of Kings raves about. The Bible also slags off all the tolerant kings who allowed religious plurality as evil idolators. I think the jealous and intolerant Yahweh in the Bible just a reflection of the fanatics who wrote it. Although quite when Yahweh fully replaced El and assimilated his traits is a good question, sometime around the 8th-9th centuries BCE I'd guess, under the auspices of the monarchies.
Some of the Greek and Roman heroes / sons of gods were worshipped as gods and saviours, just like Jesus. If you'd have talked to your average Roman 2000 years ago about 'God' and the 'Son of God', chances are they'd have envisaged you were talking about Zeus and Heracles, not Yahweh and Jesus.