Sometimes, I try to imagine God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in the eternal chambers of the Godhead talking about how the whole plan of man's redemption will pan out.
God: Wow, I'm really lonely here.
Jesus & Holy Spirit: Yea, me too. Hey, I have an idea! Let's create intelligent beings (definitely less intelligent that us, though), so that we can have a relationship with them! And, they can worship us for all of eternity!
God: Yea, and we'll give them free will so that they can choose to love us.
Jesus: But, what if they don't choose to love us?
God: Well, we could just threaten them with eternal torment if they don't.
Jesus & Holy Spirit: That makes sense. Let's do it!
God: Hey, I have another idea! Let's make it to where I can't forgive sin unless there is an animal sacrifice. That sounds cool.
Jesus & HS: Yea, the people won't have a clue what that's all about. But, they'll do it because we'll promise them curses if they don't.
Jesus: Ooo, I have another brilliant idea. Let's give messages through different prophets about the coming of a Messiah! Let's use the Isrealites as the vessels of our message and send the Messiah through this people. We will give very specific parameters involving what this King will be like and what he will do. Then, let's do an old switcheroo and I'll go down and die for everyone's sins!! It will be the coolest surprise ever! The Isrealites won't know what hit them. They won't be able to believe it! But, if they don't believe it, they'll go to Hell! This will be great!
Jesus: I'm not really sure how I'm going to go down there without you, God, and you, Holy Spirit. I mean, we are the same God, but somehow we are going to split ourselves up. I don't get it and nobody else will either. But, let's do it!
God is a schizofrenic :-\?
I like these types of posts. It is good to try and vizualise.
It was interesting seeing the Lord of the Rings Extra stuff.
PJ discussed why certain things on the page don't work when you include visual. It may sound reasonable in your head, but when you visualise it, it just doesn't work.
Can someone explain just what the holy spirit is in Christianity? I've never heard a good explanation for what it is and how it differs from god.
The Trinity is an inherently incomprehensible concept - that's what makes it appealing, because it transcends human understanding the way Christians consider God to be transcendent. It's a mental exercise in trying to comprehend the 'three-in-one'. When I was a tyke, I got a kids book that was supposed to explain the Trinity through the analogy of an apple. You have the peel, the flesh, and the seeds - three separate parts, but all making up the one apple. Yeah, I still don't get it . . . but I do have the munchies.
ETA: The 'holy spirit' as used in the Bible is translated from a Hebrew word used to describe the divine essence apparent in the world - purity, holiness, an essential part of every human soul (if you want to really know the mind of God).
Hmmm.....that's a good question. The Holy Spirit is the "comforter" as Jesus called him/she/it. It's the spirit of God that came to dwell in the hearts of believers on the day of pentecost, which supposedly took place I think a month or so after Christ died. The Holy Spirit is the guide for a Christian. Whenever a person asks Jesus into their heart, some say that the Holy Spirit comes inside them at that point. Others say that you have to specifically ask for the indwelling of the spirit and that it can happen many many times. When God speaks to a Christian it is really the Holy Spirit who relays the message. Christians will say stuff like, "The Holy Spirit told me" or "I felt the Holy Spirit leading me to...". That explanation probably doesn't make much sense. But, that's what I came away with after being a Christian for 15 years.
Also, forgot to say that Christians believe that those who don't understand the Bible don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The HS reveals all truth and without it, you can't comprehend the things of God. Anything good in you comes from the HS. If you feel compassion towards a sick child, that isn't you, it's the HS. Or, if you feel overwhelmed by the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross and you are overcome with thankfulness, that's not you, it's the HS. We, as humans, are incapable of good. Only by the HS can we do good. Pretty crazy stuff, huh?
Thanks. Still a bit confused by the whole thing, but glad to hear I have good reason to be :)
Quote from: Firebird on March 16, 2012, 03:03:21 AM
Can someone explain just what the holy spirit is in Christianity? I've never heard a good explanation for what it is and how it differs from god.
The Holy Spirit is God. Experientially, the HS is the presence of God in the life of the believer. The experience of his presence is wonderful. The divine presence (the Holy Spirit) is what Christianity is all about.
The Trinity is the adult equivalent of, if for example, a child's belief that the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa are all the same being. 3 beings existing as one cannot be reconciled using the Bible. To get from Son of Man to Son of God to God Himself is nothing other than wishful thinking on the Writers and the current believers.
It basically comes down to cherry picking NT verses and claiming "Jesus claimed to be God and it says so in the Bible". It's a way to get around OT verses like Exod. 20:1-4; Deut. 5:6-9, which claim it is forbidden to worship anything other than God. It is also a way to get around polytheism to monotheism, which Trinitarianism has failed to do.
ETA:
You simply cannot have something with individual properties that allow it to be labelled "Jesus" and not "Holy Spirit", and in the same breath claim they are synonymous. This is called the fallacy of equivocation. Christianity is built on this house of cards.
Five Christian definitions of Trinity:
1. God - a divine single nature/essence of three persons
2. God - a person who is the Father of Jesus
3. God - another person who is the Father's son
4. God - another person who is the Holy Spirit
5. God - another identity who is the Triune Being
Simple, huh?
One can see how easy it is for Christians to commit the fallacy of equivocation and indeed, they must do so to make an argument which might "sound" coherent. But in the end their conclusion results in absurdity because they have devised different definitions of the word "God" in their argument and have thereby compared two or more different concepts just like the examples above to create an amalgamation.
And one could also read about the bloody history of how Trinitarianism came to be.
Gawen, that was the best explanation I have ever heard. It's so easy to see the fallacy when laid out that way. I wanted to add that if you ask a Christian how the Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God can be one being yet separate beings they will say that it's a "mystery" and our humans minds are too small to understand. So sad how little Christians think of the human mind. :'(
The trinity thing where you have multiple gods in one came from an Egyptian idea. Ra was one god with many personalities. There was Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc. These were all separate personalities, but were all part of the essence of Ra. Christians sort of stole that idea. Many of you already know of Ra impregnating the virgin Isis, and the result being Horus, the son of Ra.
The apple is good, hadn't heard that one. The Jesus guy on Religulous described it like water. It can be liquid, solid (ice), or gas (water vapor), but those are all three phases of the same thing, water. So that's god with the trinity.
When Christians try to win me with Pascal's wager, I mention god's plan. If god has this plan, then he has complete control over where people are born and whether they ever hear about Jesus. Therefore, when someone is born in Pakistan and never has that opportunity to hear about Jesus, and never have the chance to accept or reject Jesus' sacrifice, through no fault of their own, they go to Hell. That's God's fault, since he has complete control over that. Therefore it was God's plan to send that person to Hell and not even give them a chance. I say because of that, even if there is a Hell, and even if Hell is the worst kind of torture beyond imagination, I'd rather go to Hell than follow that kind of God. I'd rather burn in Hell out of principle.
Quote from: Dobermonster on March 16, 2012, 03:18:02 AM
The Trinity is an inherently incomprehensible concept - that's what makes it appealing, because it transcends human understanding the way Christians consider God to be transcendent. It's a mental exercise in trying to comprehend the 'three-in-one'. When I was a tyke, I got a kids book that was supposed to explain the Trinity through the analogy of an apple. You have the peel, the flesh, and the seeds - three separate parts, but all making up the one apple. Yeah, I still don't get it . . . but I do have the munchies.
ETA: The 'holy spirit' as used in the Bible is translated from a Hebrew word used to describe the divine essence apparent in the world - purity, holiness, an essential part of every human soul (if you want to really know the mind of God).
I could never wrap my head around it when I was Catholic. I saw the obvious distinction between Jesus and the other two, seeing how he had a physical body, but it always seemed God and the Spirit were one and the same. Neither would seem to have physical form... The idea has always baffled me.
Hmmm...that's not god, but a populist conception of god/straw man that is easily targeted by intelligent yet literal minded individuals and easily believed by simpletons who need something more concrete because they can not concieve how notions of universal love and abstract philosophy.
It makes for great laughs though.
*note* It is easy to say that what I am saying is a logical fallacy(no true scotsman), but consider that it is also a logical fallacy to insist that something is what another person believes when they tell you that it is not. Arming yourself with the no true scotsman fallacy seems to be just a stronger form of straw-man. Similiar to destroying the angry, idiotic god of the bible, and then ignoring any other forms of god that might be proposed. (The book of Elijah, for example) A good example of this is the usual disproof of an "omni-three" god that is often dismantled. A conception of god that is defined by, say, "ultimate love", however, is often decried as not the "real" christian belief, ignoring the fact that ultimate love is a very real part of christian theology, and also ignoring the diversity of religion in favor of an oversimplistic antagonizing view of it.
Who, exactly, are the "simpletons" in your estimation?
Quote from: The Semaestro on March 26, 2012, 10:32:33 PM
A conception of god that is defined by, say, "ultimate love", however, is often decried as not the "real" christian belief, ignoring the fact that ultimate love is a very real part of christian theology, and also ignoring the diversity of religion in favor of an oversimplistic antagonizing view of it.
Several New Testament writings make it clear that love (
agape) was very much the core Christian concept of God. I John 4:8 says that God is love. Jesus' new commandment was to love one another as he loved (John 13:34). Paul said the "greatest of these is love." (I Cor. 13) God's actions in sending Jesus are motivated by love. (John 3:16)
This concept of God is a radical departure from his presentation in the Old Testament. A good argument can be made that Jesus tipped his hat to the OT and paid lip service to it, but got away from it's presentation of God and its rules and regulations as soon as he could. In instituting a "new covenant" with his disciples, it's pretty clear that he intended to do away with the old one. So while Christianity came out of Judaism, it became its own creature, completely separate from its mother. Modern Christians would do well to get outof mom's house and separate themselves from her influence.
Going back to the original post about gods plan. One of the best videos I have seen on that topic is from the youtube user theoreticalbullshit, the video is titled god's Checklist 2.0. I also agree that the trinity is a very...interesting idea but that is about it. Growing up in a Roman Catholic school the trinity was a topic that was frequently talked about. I remember our teacher calling it an "advanced concept". I will post a link of the video when I am by a computer unless someone else can beat me to it.
Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvRPbsXBVBo&list=UUp8YwJpk7OALmnuJ8d9SUlQ&index=26&feature=plcp&safety_mode=true
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 27, 2012, 04:17:41 PM
Who, exactly, are the "simpletons" in your estimation?
For my purposes, a simpleton is defined by objective IQ measurements. To the extent that a person requires an explanation to be simplified is the extent of their qualifications towards being a "simpleton". The word was not meant to be used pejoratively.
:edit:
I would imagine any trinity could be defined as the sum of three parts having different functions and grouped together. The difficulty in understanding seems to be that these three parts are assumed to exist in the same temporal and locative state. If one discounts this idea as gibberish, then conceptions of the trinity might, quite logically, be defined in terms of poetic symbol. The father, therefore, being "cause, origin, alpha, creator", etc. The son then being "fulfillment, creation, effect, omega", etc. And of course the holy spirit would be the eternal relationship between the two that pervades all of existence.
*Note: It should be pointed out that this conception of the trinity, while perfectly meshing with traditional theologic concepts and apologetics, is not generally espoused by the majority of christianity, but then again nor should it be expected to be.
As far as I know, accepting that the trinity is a legitimate "miracle" created by God is a doctrine of the Catholic church that is kept to this day. I was certainly taught that it was when I was Catholic and my very Catholic family still hold it to be such.
Meh. There's always room for interpretation within interpretation. Plus, people in the seminary tend to go on and on about this stuff. From a child's perspective...eh.
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 04, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 27, 2012, 04:17:41 PM
Who, exactly, are the "simpletons" in your estimation?
For my purposes, a simpleton is defined by objective IQ measurements. To the extent that a person requires an explanation to be simplified is the extent of their qualifications towards being a "simpleton". The word was not meant to be used pejoratively.
:edit:
I would imagine any trinity could be defined as the sum of three parts having different functions and grouped together. The difficulty in understanding seems to be that these three parts are assumed to exist in the same temporal and locative state. If one discounts this idea as gibberish, then conceptions of the trinity might, quite logically, be defined in terms of poetic symbol. The father, therefore, being "cause, origin, alpha, creator", etc. The son then being "fulfillment, creation, effect, omega", etc. And of course the holy spirit would be the eternal relationship between the two that pervades all of existence.
*Note: It should be pointed out that this conception of the trinity, while perfectly meshing with traditional theologic concepts and apologetics, is not generally espoused by the majority of christianity, but then again nor should it be expected to be.
The idea of one god with multiple personalities isn't original to Christianity, anyway.
Quote from: fester30 on April 17, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 04, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 27, 2012, 04:17:41 PM
Who, exactly, are the "simpletons" in your estimation?
For my purposes, a simpleton is defined by objective IQ measurements. To the extent that a person requires an explanation to be simplified is the extent of their qualifications towards being a "simpleton". The word was not meant to be used pejoratively.
:edit:
I would imagine any trinity could be defined as the sum of three parts having different functions and grouped together. The difficulty in understanding seems to be that these three parts are assumed to exist in the same temporal and locative state. If one discounts this idea as gibberish, then conceptions of the trinity might, quite logically, be defined in terms of poetic symbol. The father, therefore, being "cause, origin, alpha, creator", etc. The son then being "fulfillment, creation, effect, omega", etc. And of course the holy spirit would be the eternal relationship between the two that pervades all of existence.
*Note: It should be pointed out that this conception of the trinity, while perfectly meshing with traditional theologic concepts and apologetics, is not generally espoused by the majority of christianity, but then again nor should it be expected to be.
The idea of one god with multiple personalities isn't original to Christianity, anyway.
What other religions have had this concept?
Quote from: The Semaestro on April 04, 2012, 06:42:34 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 27, 2012, 04:17:41 PM
Who, exactly, are the "simpletons" in your estimation?
*Note: It should be pointed out that this conception of the trinity, while perfectly meshing with traditional theologic concepts and apologetics, is not generally espoused by the majority of christianity, but then again nor should it be expected to be.
It isn't? With the 1 billion Roman Catholics believing it, and most of the protestant denominations affirming a trinity, how does that not constitute a majority?
Can you clarify, please?
And yet another aspect of the HS is manifested through speaking in other tongues. Once one is "filled with the Spirit", one is then able to deliver a verbal encrypted message complete with nonsensical murmurings and utterances. This all under the auspices of god speaking through you to the masses or simply to yourself with an interpretation to follow. This was my upbringing. :( :( :(
Great thread Asherah!
I believe that I am um....infected....(don't know what you call it) with the holy spirit every Passover. After 4 cups of wine and several shots of brandy, my Hebrew is fluent. :D :D :D
Quote from: Asherah on April 17, 2012, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: fester30 on April 17, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
The idea of one god with multiple personalities isn't original to Christianity, anyway.
What other religions have had this concept?
http://egypt-tehuti.org/articles/monotheism-polytheism.html (http://egypt-tehuti.org/articles/monotheism-polytheism.html)
Egyptians. The idea that they believed in one god was perhaps a misunderstanding of their ideas. They believed in Ra as experienced through the various behaviors that came to be known as the other "gods" such as Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc.
So just as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are thought by many Christians to be separate manifestations of the same god, so are Isis, Osiris, Horus of the same Ra.
I don't find it surprising that the Hebrews (gradual journey toward monotheism) and later the Christians would copy practices and ideas of other cultures in their own religious traditions. That's how civilization works. People come together and share ideas.
Quote from: fester30 on April 17, 2012, 09:24:07 PMThe idea that they believed in one god was perhaps a misunderstanding of their ideas. They believed in Ra as experienced through the various behaviors that came to be known as the other "gods" such as Isis, Osiris, Horus, etc.
Well I hope that doesn't include Set.
Chopping yourself into fourteen pieces and scattering them throughout the land would be weird.
Ah but this is religion, you're not going to get far if you have a problem with weird.
QuoteIsis gathered up all the parts of the body, less the phallus (which was eaten by a catfish
My next sock puppet will use a catfish avatar.
Name, hmmm, errrr, I'll have to think on it.
Quote from: Asherah on April 17, 2012, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: fester30 on April 17, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
The idea of one god with multiple personalities isn't original to Christianity, anyway.
What other religions have had this concept?
There's also the Triple Goddess concept common among modern Pagans and Wiccans, which was lifted from ancient Greek mythology where several Goddesses were identified that way -- Hera, Hecate and possibly Demeter come immediately to mind.
Religion of "the legend of Zelda" ;)
Although finding the triforce is much easier than finding the holy trinity