This is taken from another thread. Thought it would be interesting for a new discussion. It's from Stevil:
Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).
The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.
The prayer believers put up a forcefield of "all in god's time". He has the bird's eye view and the handy seeing into the future mechanism therefore he decides when, if ever, a prayer is answered or should be answered. So just don't worry about the nonsensical nature of the subject matter. Fall in line with the rest of us and move on. Be the good little clone or stepford wife that the institution of Christianity has made you.
It's also often a question of confirmation bias.
People who want to believe something, will remember the hits more then the misses. It is very similar to the way psychics work. Throw out enough stuff and some will stick, and that is all the proof a believer needs.
I don't understand it when a person states that god does answer prayer in a tangible way but we still can't measure this statistically.
My conclusion is that the person arguing this doesn't understand statistics and probability.
Prayer is a weird concept to me. Like, god wasn't going to do X (cure my buddy from cancer, for example) but since I asked, he (might) do it as a special favor. What? You know why I'm successful at work? I see what needs to be done, and then I do it. I guess that's why you don't see God winning all expenses paid trips to Miami. He's not much of a self starter. ;D ;D ;D
A lot of it is placebo effect. Like the common prayer, "Lord, give me strength". If you desire that emotional stability enough and believe the prayer will bring you peace, then it is more likely to occur. But that's nothing supernatural, that's just psychology.
Of course, praying for others could possibly have a negative effect . . . but only if you tell them they're being prayed for. Better keep it on the down-low, just in case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all
Quote from: Ali on March 15, 2012, 07:12:50 PM
Prayer is a weird concept to me. Like, god wasn't going to do X (cure my buddy from cancer, for example) but since I asked, he (might) do it as a special favor. What? You know why I'm successful at work? I see what needs to be done, and then I do it. I guess that's why you don't see God winning all expenses paid trips to Miami. He's not much of a self starter. ;D ;D ;D
Preeeeeecisely. I mean if god is all knowing why in his name should I have to plead for him to assist me in some way. Especially if I am suffering. Furthermore if he knows what is best than I would find it particularly troublesome to know that a consult with little old, mortal, imperfect me could change this supreme beings mind and course of action. In that event I would know what was better than he. I convinced him to do something he would not have done otherwise. My idea was better. I just cannot help but call bullshit on the whole deal.
Quote from: Truthseeker on March 15, 2012, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: Ali on March 15, 2012, 07:12:50 PM
Prayer is a weird concept to me. Like, god wasn't going to do X (cure my buddy from cancer, for example) but since I asked, he (might) do it as a special favor. What? You know why I'm successful at work? I see what needs to be done, and then I do it. I guess that's why you don't see God winning all expenses paid trips to Miami. He's not much of a self starter. ;D ;D ;D
Preeeeeecisely. I mean if god is all knowing why in his name should I have to plead for him to assist me in some way. Especially if I am suffering. Furthermore if he knows what is best than I would find it particularly troublesome to know that a consult with little old, mortal, imperfect me could change this supreme beings mind and course of action. In that event I would know what was better than he. I convinced him to do something he would not have done otherwise. My idea was better. I just cannot help but call bullshit on the whole deal.
From what I understand, God thrives on expressions of faith. Prayer is just one of these. It seems a little insecure/ego-stroking to me that he would demand you to beg and reiterate your faith in him before he'll do anything though. (Of course, you have to
believe)
As long as believers can use the "The lord works in mysterious ways" defense for just about anything, they can use it to justify all of the unanswered prayers as not being what god wants for us, or it isn't part of god's plan. That along with confirmation bias is a big part of why some people actually believe that their god grants wishes.
There's also the "The lord helps those who helps themselves" concept. You cannot just pray for something, you have to work hard for it. I think that some people do find prayer helpful in that it serves to boost confidence and motivate them to help themselves since they want god's help. When a believer prays for a better job, and then fills out applications, submits resumes, and goes to interviews to get the job, they really believe that it was the prayer that got them the job. It just serves to confirm that which they wish to believe. I guess the bottom line is that it's easy to convince someone of anything that they already wish to believe.
I've heard people say "pray for what you need, not what you want."
Then, after the fact, when you don't get what you want, you can't caulk it up to god's wisdom. You know, even though there are some pretty clear "ask and ye shall receive" passages in the bible. If you don't get what you prayed for, it's your fault for praying for the wrong thing.
I hate how people accredit their own accomplishments to god.
While watching the show "Shark Tank" the other day, the premise of which is this:
-Entrepreneurs pitch their ideas to the venture capitalists like Mark Cuban who have already made a lot of money, for a portion of the entrepreneurs company in exchange for the sharks money.
Some of these people act as if god got them on the show, and in a position to to get the financing they desperately need. Some of them act as if they did nothing to get their business off the ground and turn a profit. It pisses me off, and if I had the money, I would never invest in someone like that.
I talk to myself all the time about what needs to be accomplished. I know I'm talking to myself though. Others think they are talking to god. When what they have been working towards happens, they accredit it to god, rather than their own initiative, ingenuity, and skill. It annoys me.
Whenever I mention it to someone though, they simply ignore it and insist god helped them achieve that goal.
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on March 16, 2012, 01:08:24 AM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on March 16, 2012, 12:40:27 AM
I hate how people accredit their own accomplishments to god.
I find this to be one of the saddest parts of religion. I would see it all the time when I went to AA meetings on a regular basis. A lot of members insist their sobriety is God's doing. I just wanted to yell, "Give yourself some credit for making your life better!"
I don't get this either. I also wonder about if that's actually therapeutically sensible. ???
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on March 16, 2012, 12:40:27 AM
I hate how people accredit their own accomplishments to god.
To me the whole thing is a very, very badly mislead attempt of appearing humble. I suppose they have to try to compensate for the absolute knowledge, based on faith, of everything somehow, so that they won't appear arrogant.
I would say it yet another thing silly thing in religions that simply isn't working... :-\
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy
I hate how people accredit their own accomplishments to god.
I think this is what we all mean on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYcOHrxNJjg
Quote from: Truthseeker on March 16, 2012, 09:38:40 AM
I think this is what we all mean on this subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYcOHrxNJjg
I saw this, and I was applauding in front of my computer. Lovely!
I don't normally like Kathy Griffins but that made me more than a little happy.