Hello Everyone,
I've been discovering over the past five years that Christianity most likely isn't true. I'm still struggling through it, though. Sometimes, I still wonder if leaving Christianity is the right thing and "what if" it is true. And, what if I go to hell. So, I still have some work to do. So, some of my posts my seem a little conflicted because of where I at with all this.
I was on another Atheist forum and people were SO rude. So, I'm trying a new one. I just want some discussion without all the pissed off people saying stupid things. If they even smell a Christian, then I'm toast. And, I can't say that I am a Christian.....I'm not sure what I believe. I guess I just don't really believe in a god/gods because there isn't any evidence. But, if evidence comes to light, then I would believe. That's probably a good estimate of where I'm at.
What really turned the tide for me towards my current thoughts about god is that I used to regularly attend a Bible study and I was a pretty strong Christian. But, one day it just dawned on my that NONE of our healing prayers EVER got answered. Then, I started noticing that in my life, god doesn't really do anything....unless there is an ambiguous situation. Also, I started realizing why coincidences don't mean anything. I used to look at coincidences as god speaking to me. But, I started realizing that two events could coincide because of chance or because of causation. But, there is no way to know if two events have a causal relationship unless a scientific test is set up. Lucky for god, he can't undergo such testing. And, I've come to find out that he can't undergo any testing. Therefore, I have this suspicion that he's a made of figment of man's imagination.
I went through a depression once I started realizing these things. But, I'm starting to come out of the fog and am finding happiness in life without god. Although, I still feel somewhat sad about it. I really loved Jesus and god and the whole church thing. O well. Life moves on, I guess. I'm going to raise my kids as freethinkers and I feel good about that. Although, I have to get my husband on board and he's a Christian.
Thanks for having me aboard.
Asherah
Welcome to the forum! Glad to hear that the depression is getting better :)
Hi Asherah, Welcome.
You won't find rudeness here - we're all happy! It sounds like you're a reasonable and reasoning kinda dudess so unlikely to ecounter incivility.
Seems like you're doing a good job of working through it by yourself. You've just gotta find comfort in the void left by the God that wasn't there. I, for one, find huge satisfaction in a meaningless universe - very liberating!
If it helps, I always found that once I'd truly committed to a life without the vindictive Sky-Daddy everything just fell into place in my world. I think as a Christian one is always shoehorning ideas into ones scheme of reality to make them fit. No such requirements for an Atheist, just a well-made jigsaw.
Hope you find solace here. Get stuck in and enjoy the journey...
How old are your kids, and where're you from?
Firstly, my apologies for this protected post. But knowing where you are in life at the moment I felt it was very important to lay these points out.
Your experience is quite similar to mine. I was a Bible believing, Jesus worshiping, church going, laying on of hands, demon casting, tongue speaking Christian for a sold 10 years. And like you I was infatuated with the whole deal. What a feeling to "know" that a supreme being was up there on our side clearing the way ahead of us if we only believe.
Then at one point it occurred to me that I was really worshiping a belief in god/Jesus rather than god/Jesus himself. I was in love with the bright and shiny things Christianity proffered to lured me into what ended up being a hypnotized zealot: a supreme being that accepts me for who I am and meets me where I stand, whose mercy never ends and whose forgiveness is everlasting. His love is incomprehensible. And finally, the kicker of all kickers, an eternal after life of joy, peace and love.
Believe me when I say that I sympathize with your plight. I know the place you are right now. Like your husband my wife and children are Christians. It was excruciating for me when I walked away. I was alone due to the fact that I had only associated with those in Christian circles. But eventually I got to a point where there really was no other choice for me than to turn my back on a belief system that was so nonsensical that a blind man could see its fallacy. I found that I was drowning while grasping for a razor blade. Asherah, we drank the cool-aid. We hitched our trailer to a nonstarter belief really.
Do something for me. Just for a moment, forget about the unanswered prayers. Forget about god "not doing anything in your life". And forget about the coincidences deal. Your fellow Christians can explain all of that away by saying "...all in His timing", or "He is testing you" and on and on. Just think about this one notion: The cinderblock of Christianity rests on the greatest non sequitur of mankind. It promulgates a supreme being whose love is incomprehensible, whose forgiveness is EVERLASTING, whose mercy NEVER ends. All the while he has allowed (I use that word very intentionally) and watched billions of his "children" enter into an everlasting torment that makes Auschwitz look like a McDonalds playground. And why does he allow such an atrocity to exist? Simply because a sinner's prayer was not uttered by the accused. Now Asherah, take your precious children into your mind's eye right now and tell me what act they could possibly perform that would merit your acceptance of such a fate. Keep in mind you have the power to prevent them from said fate. But you sit back and watch your children walk right into this wicked, evil torturous eternity. Even if they chose this option and wanted it tell me you could allow it. Furthermore why would you allow the option to exist in the first place? The whole thing is nuttier than squirrel shit Asherah.
I have only been a part of HAF for what, two weeks, if that long. But I can say with conviction that you will be treated with nothing but respect and caring on this forum. If not Tank will incinerate them.
Welcome home.
Hello Asherah
Thank you for your thoughtful introduction. Unlike Truthseeker I have never been a believer. I was brought up in England in the 60s by a mildly Christian Mum and atheist Dad, I was more inoculated than indoctrinated. Thus I haven't experienced anything like what you are going through now. Although I have read many stories like yours.
One of the reasons I don't visit some other forums is their attitude to Christians just because they are Christians. At the Richard Dawkins Forum (now defunct due to abysmal management) Christians were referred to as 'Chew toys', hardly an attitude to promote discussion. That attitude carried on to the forum that grew from the ashes of RDF.
HAF is about considered and friendly discussion and you should feel you can say what you want when you want, but be honest with yourself or the whole process becomes futile and meaningless for all concerned. Answer straight questions with straight answers and things will go well.
Thanks for making the effort to sign up and join in.
Welcome to HAF. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg32.imageshack.us%2Fimg32%2F2922%2Fcheersi.gif&hash=d22c932723fd55512134b1ae98b018246ccbb424)
Regards
Chris
Notes for new members.
The Rules. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0)
Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts.
Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php#2) section of the forum.
It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.
Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
10 Things About Yourself (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0)
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8215.0)
Photography (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0)
Non-religious pet peeves (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6917.0)
Pets...what do you have? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)
Favorite Song, with video (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8830.0)
How to tell your family you are an atheist. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5111.0)*
"Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5631.0)*
*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.
Welcome!
HAF is hardly a lions den (don't let Too Few Lions fool you) so you shouldn't run into any problems, Christian or agnostic. In the time I've spent posting here I've seen that people are treated more in accordance with how they treat others, not whether they're a believer in any religion or not. Sincere questions are welcome, trolling and preaching are not (not that I think you're going to troll or preach). It's a bit different here, and being a smaller community forum, a good level of civility is maintained, even though frustrations are taken out every once in a while :P
QuoteI guess I just don't really believe in a god/gods because there isn't any evidence. But, if evidence comes to light, then I would believe.
That would also describe what I think, and most atheists too I guess. Agnostic atheism or weak atheism - doesn't know if there is or isn't a god but doesn't believe in any and lives one's life as if there weren't any. Ou of curiosity, what would you accept as evidence for the existence of a god or gods? You seem quite aware of some common biases pervasive in belief, so I'm assuming your standards are as high as any outspoken atheist?
Asherah, good to have you here. I joined two days ago. But think I walked almost the same path as yours. Started to recognize flaws on the God I had been taught from the 1st year in college and it took 5 years to completely sever the tie.
- What if I go to hell? What if I got punished by something like accident? (You may laugh but it was what I really had in mind) So many what if's held me that long.
One main reason I became skeptical about God was social injustice. I finished college in Korea. It was the period of political turmoil, and a lot of students participated in the anti-government movement (like the one in Egypt now). Probably I had the same questions about God's role in this world.
Is there God? If so, what's the meaning of his existence if God is not playing any role in our play? Why so many Christians play a major role in oppressing fellow citizens and protecting the dictator? Why am I throwing stones to fellow Christians?
It was a long, hard process to break the chain. Frankly, I don't know what was the most critical factor -- I guess it's combination of (1) association with the people of different view, (2) my own reading on God, religion, church and society, (3) more involvement in other political activities and better understanding of the society, etc.
When I was in college, I tried to interpret Evolution in terms of Bible to prove that God is the Creator. I studied what Creation Scientists presented. Guess what? I reached conclusion that everything they presented could also be used to explain evolution as well and tossed away their views early in my college year. However, tossing away the "religious dogma" was proved to be a lot more difficult. The point is that changing a person's long established view might be really difficult, especially it was naturally accepted from an early age and then continued without any challenge until the adulthood. This is my own conclusion based on my personal case. Changing other people might be close to impossible unless that someone plays his/her own active roles.
For me, Christianity and atheism is just a view of an individual like many other views. Many christians do not agree. If I can make a Christian understand this and accept or acknowledge other possibilities, I would be more than happy. Be happy. James.
Yeay! One more has seen the light! So to speak...
Welcome to the forum. We're mostly nice people, though we have some fellows who like to preach....
Hey Everyone,
Thanks for the responses and encouragement.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on March 09, 2012, 03:38:02 PM
How old are your kids, and where're you from?
They are 5 & 3 and we live in Oklahoma.
Quote from: TruthSeeker on March 09, 2012, 03:38:02 PM
Do something for me. Just for a moment, forget about the unanswered prayers. Forget about god "not doing anything in your life". And forget about the coincidences deal. Your fellow Christians can explain all of that away by saying "...all in His timing", or "He is testing you" and on and on. Just think about this one notion: The cinderblock of Christianity rests on the greatest non sequitur of mankind. It promulgates a supreme being whose love is incomprehensible, whose forgiveness is EVERLASTING, whose mercy NEVER ends. All the while he has allowed (I use that word very intentionally) and watched billions of his "children" enter into an everlasting torment that makes Auschwitz look like a McDonalds playground. And why does he allow such an atrocity to exist? Simply because a sinner's prayer was not uttered by the accused. Now Asherah, take your precious children into your mind's eye right now and tell me what act they could possibly perform that would merit your acceptance of such a fate. Keep in mind you have the power to prevent them from said fate. But you sit back and watch your children walk right into this wicked, evil torturous eternity. Even if they chose this option and wanted it tell me you could allow it. Furthermore why would you allow the option to exist in the first place? The whole thing is nuttier than squirrel shit Asherah.
I have thought about all of that. And, it does bother me. It's another reason that I don't believe. Hell makes no sense for all the reasons you mentioned. In addition, it's not going to correct future behavior or take away the pain that person caused while on Earth. Many people will say, "So, you are saying that Hitler will have NO punishment?!!" And, because they don't want to think about the possibility that he won't, they go on believing there is actually a Hell. Even if Hitler did go to Hell, what good would it do? It won't take away one ounce of pain that he caused.
You are so right about thinking of it in terms of my child. I would never send them to a place of eternal torment even if they chose to go there. And, why would anyone want to go to Heaven knowing that there are billions of people burning in Hell. None of it makes sense.
Quote from: xSilverPhynx on March 09, 2012, 03:38:02 PM
Quote
I guess I just don't really believe in a god/gods because there isn't any evidence. But, if evidence comes to light, then I would believe.
That would also describe what I think, and most atheists too I guess. Agnostic atheism or weak atheism - doesn't know if there is or isn't a god but doesn't believe in any and lives one's life as if there weren't any. Ou of curiosity, what would you accept as evidence for the existence of a god or gods? You seem quite aware of some common biases pervasive in belief, so I'm assuming your standards are as high as any outspoken atheist?
I would accept evidence for God if prayers were regularly, unambiguously answered. My kid is sick right now and I have never had god answer a prayer for healing for my kids. But, if my prayers were answered even half of the time, I would probably believe. Also, if I ever witness a miracle, I would then have room to believe that maybe all (or some) the things written about Jesus in the NT have some possibility of being true. Miracles such as an amputee having a limb restored right before my very eyes, or a shriveled hand restored to perfection right before my eyes. I would also believe if Jesus appeared to me like he did to Paul, the disciples, the women, etc. Or, if most Christians went without health insurance because god healed them so much. Or, if people went to the church first for healing before going to the doctor. Or, if the church operated anything like the Acts 2 church...tongues of fire on peoples heads. Or, if the world operated the way it is described in the Bible - parting of the Red Sea, sticks turning to snakes, people turning to salt, etc etc etc. Or, if the Bible aligned with science in an inexplicable way where it was obvious that the writer of the Bible had knowledge beyond anything any human being could have possibly known at the time. And....the list could go on but, I'll stop there.
I probably should just call myself an atheist.....but, that's too hard right now.... :( I came out of the womb being taught about god.
Thanks for all of the responses. So nice to hear similar stories and I'm glad to hear this is going to be a forum without all the rudeness I've experienced from other forums.
Peace :)
Quote from: Asherah on March 09, 2012, 11:48:09 PM
I would accept evidence for God if prayers were regularly, unambiguously answered. My kid is sick right now and I have never had god answer a prayer for healing for my kids. But, if my prayers were answered even half of the time, I would probably believe. Also, if I ever witness a miracle, I would then have room to believe that maybe all (or some) the things written about Jesus in the NT have some possibility of being true. Miracles such as an amputee having a limb restored right before my very eyes, or a shriveled hand restored to perfection right before my eyes. I would also believe if Jesus appeared to me like he did to Paul, the disciples, the women, etc. Or, if most Christians went without health insurance because god healed them so much. Or, if people went to the church first for healing before going to the doctor. Or, if the church operated anything like the Acts 2 church...tongues of fire on peoples heads. Or, if the world operated the way it is described in the Bible - parting of the Red Sea, sticks turning to snakes, people turning to salt, etc etc etc. Or, if the Bible aligned with science in an inexplicable way where it was obvious that the writer of the Bible had knowledge beyond anything any human being could have possibly known at the time. And....the list could go on but, I'll stop there.
Pretty much the kind of evidence I would ask for as well...
Hope your kid feels better soon. If it's any consolation, there was a study conducted which showed that one group of people (recovering from heart surgery) that were prayed for actually did worse than a group that were not.
QuoteI probably should just call myself an atheist.....but, that's too hard right now.... :( I came out of the womb being taught about god.
That's cool. There are other forms of belief, such as deism, in which there is a god or gods which created or set the initial conditions of the universe but don't interfere in it. Atheism and theism as the only options is a false dichotomy.
Welcome, Asherah. :D
No need to worry, this place has an atmosphere that compels friendliness. It has the same psychological effect as a cup of tea. Even otherwise foul-tempered people are relaxed and reasonable when they've got a cup of tea. Imagine the scene at the end of Reservoir Dogs, where they all shoot each other in the Mexican stand off, and think how different it would have been if only one of them had put the kettle on. That's what HAF is like.
Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).
The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.
Welcome Asherah! I've been on here for a couple of months. I think you'll find the people here very friendly.
I haven't really been a believer since I was a young child (raised reform Jewish), but I also do not discount the possibility of something being out there if there was some evidence of it. I just don't see it anywhere, nor am I willing to pull the wool over my eyes. I first brought this up when I joined too, and got some illuminating responses from the people here, including this (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8025.0) link to the Dawkins belief scale.
Also, sorry to hear your kid is sick. Best wishes on a quick recovery.
Welcome to the forum! We're all pretty friendly here. Just please do not feed the asmo. It's for your own safety. ;)
Quote from: Stevil on March 10, 2012, 09:31:43 AM
Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).
The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.
Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Genius!
Quote from: Asherah on March 09, 2012, 03:01:51 PM
I guess I just don't really believe in a god/gods because there isn't any evidence. But, if evidence comes to light, then I would believe. That's probably a good estimate of where I'm at.
That's a good estimate of where most of us are at. Contrary to the opinion of some religious who've been on these boards, if I were shown evidence of a god that stood up to whatever test could be thrown at it, I'd accept that it was real. Worshipping would be another matter entirely, but I would accept that God or a god existed. But I've noticed that many religious seem to take exception to the idea of testing this evidence, if it ever turned up. That is an attitude I do not understand -- the whole point of evidence is that it stands up to tests. Besides, Catholics test claimed miracles before they accept them as such, why would non-believers be less strict than Catholics?
I am in a real ranting mood tonight. I've been baking all day and you'd think that would lead to a mellower disposition. Oh well. Anyway, welcome to the forum Asherah.
Quote from: Asherah on March 11, 2012, 03:28:14 AM
Quote from: Stevil on March 10, 2012, 09:31:43 AM
Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).
The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.
Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Genius!
Thanks Asherah,
Now taking this a step further.
Not only can the all perfect, all powerful god not perform sinful actions such as lie, cheat, steal, etc, but due to the necessity to judge people on their faith and belief this means the all perfect, all powerful god cannot perform tangible miracles. It cannot influence the material world in a way that is inconsistent with the rules of nature otherwise as our scientists more accurately model nature with their documented and tested laws of physics we would notice anomalies proving intelligent intervention. If this god is all perfect, without sin and hence without the ability to lie, it cannot be deceitful, therefore it cannot choose to intervene in the places that it knows humankind will never look. It must act according to its own nature, with integrity and consistency. At best this means it can only be a deist type god, with no intervention on material existence since the creation event (of which there is no evidence of). It could pass judgement on souls making it to the afterlife (because we can't test for this) but being judged on goals which have not been made clear and of which we have not received any personal feedback along the way as to whether we are on track or not, this judgement hardly seems just. The judgement and sentence of eternal bliss or damnation for a pilot flying blind during a relative minute period of one's eternal existence certainly seems absurd especially given that the "divinely inspired' scriptures are open to human interpretation.
Anyway, I'll stop now in case a theist may wish to debate some of what I am saying here, and debate is against the rules in the Introductions section making this a bit unfair on them.
Tell us a bit more about yourself, what are your hobbies, your interests, your passions?
How do you spend your week-ends, do you travel?
welcome to the forum Asherah, we're all very friendly here. I'm glad you're finding happiness after apostasy (it's such a lovely word!) Thankfully I've never believed in any gods, so haven't had to deal with the changes you've gone through. You can have just as meaningful a life without believing in deities, and generally also a far more enjoyable one, I hope you find that's the case for you too.
btw nice username, one time possible consort of Yahweh and wooden pole most hated by his priests. The choice of username suggests you're pretty much through with that old charlatan Yahweh!
Welcome to the forum! Nobody here is rude unless they are just being humorous. I had the same problem on a different forum, but I have seen nothing except nice people on here ;D
Hello and welcome aboard! I've never believed in god, but can appreciate where you're at, even if only from hearing other's stories. They're all right that this is a friendly board, and I hope you enjoy it here. :)
Quote from: Stevil on March 11, 2012, 10:09:30 AM
Quote from: Asherah on March 11, 2012, 03:28:14 AM
Quote from: Stevil on March 10, 2012, 09:31:43 AM
Actually, the powers that be, that define Christianity, or at least lead the common interpretations are very careful to keep their teachings on a conceptual level (or metaphysical if you prefer).
The insistance on the necessity for faith and belief has some very interesting consequences.
This assures that there will never be any proof or evidence for god. That answered prayer cannot manifest in anyway measurable. If your prayed for regrowth of a severed limb was answered for example, this could be construed as proof of god, especially as limb regrowth simply doesn't happen in humans, certainly not without prayer and if it did happen but only to (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it, then we would know 1. that there was a god powerful enough to hear prayer and 2 powerful enough to answer limb regrowth prayer. But let's say that prayer falls within the domain of normal natural events e.g. cancer remission, well if prayer did work then statistically we would see that (Catholics or SDA or Muslims or Hindus) you name it are more likely to go into cancer remission that atheists. But because this is statistically testable then it breaks the premise (necessity for faith and belief). Hence answered prayer cannot be anything tangible.
So what is left?
A person could say "I prayed to god to give me the strength to get through the struggles of having a loved one die of cancer".
This could "conceptually" be believed to be answered. We can't measure the "strength" before the prayer and the "strength" after the prayer. I am sure if we argued that the "strength" would improve the chances of not developing depression, then we measured the depression rates, which would show that there is no advantage, the prayer believers would simply state that it is not that kind of strength.
Wow. I couldn't have said it better. Genius!
Thanks Asherah,
Now taking this a step further.
Not only can the all perfect, all powerful god not perform sinful actions such as lie, cheat, steal, etc, but due to the necessity to judge people on their faith and belief this means the all perfect, all powerful god cannot perform tangible miracles. It cannot influence the material world in a way that is inconsistent with the rules of nature otherwise as our scientists more accurately model nature with their documented and tested laws of physics we would notice anomalies proving intelligent intervention. If this god is all perfect, without sin and hence without the ability to lie, it cannot be deceitful, therefore it cannot choose to intervene in the places that it knows humankind will never look. It must act according to its own nature, with integrity and consistency. At best this means it can only be a deist type god, with no intervention on material existence since the creation event (of which there is no evidence of). It could pass judgement on souls making it to the afterlife (because we can't test for this) but being judged on goals which have not been made clear and of which we have not received any personal feedback along the way as to whether we are on track or not, this judgement hardly seems just. The judgement and sentence of eternal bliss or damnation for a pilot flying blind during a relative minute period of one's eternal existence certainly seems absurd especially given that the "divinely inspired' scriptures are open to human interpretation.
Anyway, I'll stop now in case a theist may wish to debate some of what I am saying here, and debate is against the rules in the Introductions section making this a bit unfair on them.
Tell us a bit more about yourself, what are your hobbies, your interests, your passions?
How do you spend your week-ends, do you travel?
I want to post our discussion on a new thread in the religion section so that others can comment/debate, but I don't have a tab for a new thread under the religion forum. Any ideas?
I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs :)). I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so. I'm also an amateur photographer. Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on March 12, 2012, 02:10:20 PM
btw nice username, one time possible consort of Yahweh and wooden pole most hated by his priests. The choice of username suggests you're pretty much through with that old charlatan Yahweh!
:) Thanks! I felt like being rebellious....When I was a Christian I would've been worried that curses would rain down on me for such an act of defiance. :)
You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.
Quote from: Traveler on March 12, 2012, 07:23:07 PM
You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.
That's right, it's 10, then you can post anywhere.
Quote from: Traveler on March 12, 2012, 07:23:07 PM
You need to have a certain number of posts before you can post in the rest of the forum. I think its 20ish.
Ah, okay. I'll work on that. Thanks!
Only four more to go!!! :)
Now three more!! ;D
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs :)). I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so.
I play guitar as well. Just a hobby though and now with young children I am finding it very difficult to find the time to pick up my guitar.
I mostly like heavy metal, because it is very guitar oriented music, I just love guitars. Never really got into Jazz, but I do find the Jazz standard in the Guitar Techniques magazine extremely difficult to play.
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
I'm also an amateur photographer.
We have some photography enthusiasts here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0). Tank is exceptionally good at Macro photography. McQ is a professional and his photos are spectacular. AnimatedDirt did some crazy other worldly stuff and MariaEvi has done some fantastic HDR stuff. Lots of others have contributed as well.
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.
Hmmm, hiking and fishing, you would love NZ!
Quote from: Stevil on March 12, 2012, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
I'm a stay-at-home mom and in my free time I play guitar/sing (I like jazz, but my kids think jazz is boring and they want me to play kid songs :)). I'm working up my repertoire so I can go pro within the next year or so.
I play guitar as well. Just a hobby though and now with young children I am finding it very difficult to find the time to pick up my guitar.
I mostly like heavy metal, because it is very guitar oriented music, I just love guitars. Never really got into Jazz, but I do find the Jazz standard in the Guitar Techniques magazine extremely difficult to play.
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
I'm also an amateur photographer.
We have some photography enthusiasts here http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0). Tank is exceptionally good at Macro photography. McQ is a professional and his photos are spectacular. AnimatedDirt did some crazy other worldly stuff and MariaEvi has done some fantastic HDR stuff. Lots of others have contributed as well.
Quote from: Asherah on March 12, 2012, 07:18:58 PM
Weekends are usually spent around the house with the kids/husband or out with friends. Sometimes I travel with my husband. He's in the military, so we go to weekend events sometimes. And, we like to go hiking and fishing.
Hmmm, hiking and fishing, you would love NZ!
Yea, it's definitely hard to pick up the guitar after having kids. I usually only play the stuff I like after the kids go to bed. That's cool that you are into metal. My husband plays in a metal band and that's how I started appreciating that kind of music. Although, I've never had an interest in playing it. My husband and I rarely play together because our taste in music is so different.
Wow, Tank is really good!! I've never done any macro photography. I take photos of my kids, of course ;D And, other people's kids if I can.
Oooo, NZ would be amazing!
Quote from: Asherah on March 13, 2012, 01:48:39 AM
Yea, it's definitely hard to pick up the guitar after having kids. I usually only play the stuff I like after the kids go to bed. That's cool that you are into metal. My husband plays in a metal band and that's how I started appreciating that kind of music. Although, I've never had an interest in playing it. My husband and I rarely play together because our taste in music is so different.
There is a lot of value in going into other genres, they all teach you different aspects about music.
Metal is about energy and can often have complex structures, time signature changes, intros, outros, instrumental passages, bridges, prechorus etc. Kinda complex like classical but with much more energy.
Jazz is well known for improvisation, and jumping around the scales rather than staying in one place, Jazz is especially difficult to keep time, almost seems free time.
In both genres the instrumentalists are very accomplished, not simply there as accompaniment to the vocalist and vocal melody.
Here's a song I like that is both jazz and metal Crazy Cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6S1wm8o4s). It's a bit cheesy though.
Here's another I just looked up, seems closer to jazz than metal, but sounds interesting Karcius - Combustion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7IO-kZ4itE)
Quote from: Stevil on March 13, 2012, 03:19:49 AM
Here's a song I like that is both jazz and metal Crazy Cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB6S1wm8o4s). It's a bit cheesy though.
Here's another I just looked up, seems closer to jazz than metal, but sounds interesting Karcius - Combustion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7IO-kZ4itE)
Wow, cool to hear both genres mixed. Thanks for sharing. Maybe my husband and I can make some music! ....I dunno...I tend to stick with Fats Wallers, Ella, Norah Jones, etc...