http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/mormon_explainer_1/2012/02/mormons_baptize_wiesenthals_is_there_a_way_to_stop_baptism_by_proxy_.html?wpisrc=newsletter_slatest (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/mormon_explainer_1/2012/02/mormons_baptize_wiesenthals_is_there_a_way_to_stop_baptism_by_proxy_.html?wpisrc=newsletter_slatest)
QuoteMormon Church leaders apologized Tuesday after the parents of the late Jewish rights advocate and Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal were baptized by proxy in late January. Meanwhile, Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel said that Mitt Romney "should speak to his own church and say they should stop." Is there any straightforward way to get your name on the Mormons' "Do Not Baptize" list?
No. To avoid unwanted baptisms, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints largely relies on the discretion of its members. Church policy advises that members should not request baptisms for the dead except for their own ancestors. Since this policy is difficult to enforce, some Mormons do baptize more widely. To the extent that a "Do Not Baptize" list exists, it includes only the names of Holocaust victims. The church says it learned that such baptisms were occurring in 1991 and formally ordered a stop to them; when it received complaints from an organization of Holocaust survivors in 1995, it re-emphasized the directive and removed hundreds of thousands of names from genealogical records. Even so, members have disregarded the order again and again. A centralized database of those who have been baptized exists online, although only church members can obtain a login. Officials insist that the church has done its best to monitor these records so as to keep the names of Holocaust victims from being submitted, but some do manage to slip through.
Mormons think of baptisms for the dead as a service to others, almost like adding family members' names to a guest list. According to Mormon doctrine, dead people who are baptized by proxy don't automatically join the church. Instead, they have the right to accept or reject the ordinance in the afterlife, and thus the chance to ascend to the highest levels in the afterlife, depending on what they decide. Mormons can participate in baptisms beginning at age 12, and the Mormon Explainer remembers being dunked repeatedly in a ceremonial tub on one of the lower levels of the Boston Temple. He wasn't sure on whose behalf he was being baptized and would rather have been home playing video games.
Doctrines concerning post-mortem baptisms have been controversial throughout the history of mainstream Christianity as well. The Bible refers to people "baptized for the dead," but interpretations of the phrase vary widely, and it's unclear whether the practice was ever commonplace. It's only in the last two decades that the issue has become a frequent source of controversy for the LDS Church. When the Mormon religion was founded by Joseph Smith in the early 19th century, Calvinist ideas (which held that only an elect few were destined to be saved), were losing popularity to Universalist ideas (which held that all people should have the opportunity to be saved). Smith first presented the doctrine of baptisms for the dead in the 1840s, and Mormons responded rapturously. Early church President Wilford Woodruff later recalled of the occasion, "Joseph Smith himself ... went into the Mississippi River one Sunday night after a meeting and baptized a hundred. I baptized another hundred. The next man, a few rods from me, baptized another hundred. We were strung up and down the Mississippi, baptizing for our dead." The baptisms weren't centrally recorded, as they are today.
Most Christians object to this practice, but others respect its spirit. The Vatican directed its clergy to keep their parish records from Mormon genealogists, in an effort to hinder Mormon baptisms for their dead members, even though Catholics believe that the baptisms have no authority. Some Mormons are fond of remembering how Lutheran bishop of Stockholm Krister Stendahl said that he felt "holy envy" for the doctrine. He reportedly lamented, "We Lutherans do nothing for our dead."
What do you think? Do you care if the Mormon Church baptizes you after you're dead? Do you thnink it is disrespectful, or does it not matter because the people are dead and don't know?
I won't care about anything after I'm dead. But while I'm alive, I disagree with the practice but see no reason to prevent them from doing it.
As I don't think there is an after life I don't care what anybody does 'for' me after death. From my point of view I'd rather they did something more constructive with their time.
Quote from: Davin on February 16, 2012, 04:32:39 PM
I won't care about anything after I'm dead. But while I'm alive, I disagree with the practice but see no reason to prevent them from doing it.
This is kind of where I am. I disagree with it and I do find it disrespectful, but I also recognize that that is an emotional response, and it won't matter one way or another after I die.
I wouldn't want anyone trying to baptise my corpse after I'm dead, I do find it both disrespectful and offensive. Traditionally, many churches have counted everyone ever baptised as being a member of their church, and I assume Mormons might include those they baptise after death. I wouldn't want their unholy water and superstitious rituals anywhere near my heathen corpse!
Given the long history of Jews being forced to convert to Christianity in Europe, I can understand how this practice might offend Jews in particular.
Quote from: Ali on February 16, 2012, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on February 16, 2012, 04:32:39 PM
I won't care about anything after I'm dead. But while I'm alive, I disagree with the practice but see no reason to prevent them from doing it.
This is kind of where I am. I disagree with it and I do find it disrespectful, but I also recognize that that is an emotional response, and it won't matter one way or another after I die.
Oh, I forgot to answer the disrespectful question. I think it's disrespectful to who a person was, to baptise them without their consent.
For the record, no corpses are dug up. They're baptised by proxy through a living person who pretends hold the dead person's spirit while getting baptised.
While it's disrespectful, they aren't actually doing anything other than dousing consenting adults with water and saying some prayers. So, while I couldn't advocate trying to make it stop, I would advocate appropriate ridicule. ;)
While I doubt there is any effect on the deceased, it is very disrespectful to the memory of the departed. And since the memory is all that is left of them, I say that is very wrong. I am not one for suing over the last little thing, but this deserves a lawsuit or two.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 16, 2012, 07:06:47 PM
While it's disrespectful, they aren't actually doing anything other than dousing consenting adults with water and saying some prayers. So, while I couldn't advocate trying to make it stop, I would advocate appropriate ridicule. ;)
Well, I'm just wondering how the hell do you ridicule something that is doing a rather grand job of ridiculing itself? I mean, they've "dead baptized" Hitler, Stalin, Jean D'Arc, Obama's mother.... ??? :o
I mean, how can you make it more ridiculous when they've already done all the funny stuff!?
Quote from: history_geek on February 16, 2012, 07:36:41 PM
Well, I'm just wondering how the hell do you ridicule something that is doing a rather grand job of ridiculing itself? I mean, they've "dead baptized" Hitler, Stalin, Jean D'Arc, Obama's mother.... ??? :o
I mean, how can you make it more ridiculous when they've already done all the funny stuff!?
Isn't that an example of Poe's law?
Quote from: history_geek on February 16, 2012, 07:36:41 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 16, 2012, 07:06:47 PM
While it's disrespectful, they aren't actually doing anything other than dousing consenting adults with water and saying some prayers. So, while I couldn't advocate trying to make it stop, I would advocate appropriate ridicule. ;)
Well, I'm just wondering how the hell do you ridicule something that is doing a rather grand job of ridiculing itself? I mean, they've "dead baptized" Hitler, Stalin, Jean D'Arc, Obama's mother.... ??? :o
I mean, how can you make it more ridiculous when they've already done all the funny stuff!?
Sometimes it's just a matter of pointing out the obvious silliness, like you did so well. ;D
Quote from: history_geek on February 16, 2012, 07:36:41 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 16, 2012, 07:06:47 PM
While it's disrespectful, they aren't actually doing anything other than dousing consenting adults with water and saying some prayers. So, while I couldn't advocate trying to make it stop, I would advocate appropriate ridicule. ;)
Well, I'm just wondering how the hell do you ridicule something that is doing a rather grand job of ridiculing itself? I mean, they've "dead baptized" Hitler, Stalin, Jean D'Arc, Obama's mother.... ??? :o
I mean, how can you make it more ridiculous when they've already done all the funny stuff!?
*snerk*
I don't think there needs to be a law against people casting magic spells, it is no threat to society.
I think it's flipping hilarious that they think there could be any value in such a stupid act but even when I was a xtian I laughed out loud at Mormon beliefs.
I agree. It's laughable.
Bill Mahers recent New Rule segment with his unbaptism of Mitt Romneys relative sums up the baptism of the dead rather well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7j0EHyuvUA
Quote from: Crow on February 16, 2012, 11:04:51 PM
Bill Mahers recent New Rule segment with his unbaptism of Mitt Romneys relative sums up the baptism of the dead rather well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7j0EHyuvUA
LMAO. That guy gets it.
Quote from: Ali on February 16, 2012, 04:29:18 PM
What do you think? Do you care if the Mormon Church baptizes you after you're dead? Do you think it is disrespectful, or does it not matter because the people are dead and don't know?
For myself, I don't care. For others, it's disrespectful but also silly and meaningless, so unless it seriously upsets somebody living, most likely in a case of rival superstitions, I say: whatever. And in the case of rival superstitions, I say the original mumbo jumbo gets priority.
When I was living with my mother, during her marriage to a Mormon, I got baptized for the dead. It was rather like being on a factory line, with water.
This must be something specific to just the Mormon church, yes? Most mainline Protestant/Catholic churches that I know of will only baptize a person while they're alive, since they believe the soul has to still be in the body in order for the baptism to be 'valid'. The Catholic church will only baptize someone on their deathbed if they're reasonably certain the person's still alive, or that they've just died within the last few hours because the soul may still be with the body, but even then it's a 'conditional baptism'.
As for whether I think there's 'harm' to it -- no, I don't. Logically, I can't think there's any harm to saying words and pouring water. But I do think it's disrespectful to the memory of the person, seeing as long as the person was old enough/of sound enough mind to make choices for themselves, you'd think they would have been baptized into the Mormon church if they chose to be while they were alive. For myself, I wouldn't want it done to me or for me, but I wouldn't care enough to vote on legislation banning it either.
Here's one thing I'm wondering -- would the Mormons baptize someone into their church if the person had already been baptized into another faith denomination while they were alive? Ie, Catholic, Baptist, etc? If so, that would kinda be akin to 'stealing church members' post-humously...
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 03:27:11 AM
Here's one thing I'm wondering -- would the Mormons baptize someone into their church if the person had already been baptized into another faith denomination while they were alive? Ie, Catholic, Baptist, etc? If so, that would kinda be akin to 'stealing church members' post-humously...
That I know of, they've baptized dead Jews (Mormons still baptizing dead Jewish Holocaust victims despite protests (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing-dead-jews-despite-agreements-to-end-practice.html)) and I can't see why any other religious group would be spared.
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 03:27:11 AM
Here's one thing I'm wondering -- would the Mormons baptize someone into their church if the person had already been baptized into another faith denomination while they were alive? Ie, Catholic, Baptist, etc? If so, that would kinda be akin to 'stealing church members' post-humously...
They don't care if the person was baptized in another church and they believe that the spirits of the dead must accept the baptism. It has to be voluntarily excepted by the dead spirits.
I think the only people they now try not vicariously baptize are Jews because it really pisses off the Jews.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 17, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
When I was living with my mother, during her marriage to a Mormon, I got baptized for the dead. It was rather like being on a factory line, with water.
Oooh, tell more! I've always been a little fascinated in the Mormon religion, I think because I had never even heard of them until I moved to Colorado (as far as I know there are no Mormons in OH. LOL) They seem so exotic. Have you been inside a temple?
Quote from: Ali on February 17, 2012, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 17, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
When I was living with my mother, during her marriage to a Mormon, I got baptized for the dead. It was rather like being on a factory line, with water.
Oooh, tell more! I've always been a little fascinated in the Mormon religion, I think because I had never even heard of them until I moved to Colorado (as far as I know there are no Mormons in OH. LOL) They seem so exotic. Have you been inside a temple?
If I can remember anything, it was a very long time ago. I've been to 2 temples -- one some time in the early 60s after it had just opened in So. Cal (wish I could remember what city, I was about 10 at the time and only remember a very long drive) and I've been in the big one in Salt Lake City, UT. Basically I just remember a lot of very strict rules and very conservative beliefs. I don't know if they've since changed this policy but when I was going to the church black men couldn't be deacons, priests or bishops because blacks were an inferior race (they could still be members of the congregation and pay tithe tho). Never mind all the things women couldn't do.
I wouldn't call Mormons exotic so much as borderline cultlike. That Joseph Smith story sounds fishy even when you're a kid, but many adults I knew accepted it unquestioningly. I think of mormons as being about 10 years behind the Catholics and 5 years ahead of the Scientologists.
I think it's the secrecy that captures my imagination. Non-Mormons aren't allowed in the temples, so immediately my head goes to top secret rituals probably involving virgin blood or something. LOL
Quote from: Ali on February 17, 2012, 05:59:53 PM
I think it's the secrecy that captures my imagination. Non-Mormons aren't allowed in the temples, so immediately my head goes to top secret rituals probably involving virgin blood or something. LOL
No, none of that, just the magic underwear. (Restraining myself from making a joke about enchanted thongs)
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
That's what I thought! But I also did it a little bit to be an ass. ;D
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
That's what I thought! But I also did it a little bit to be an ass. ;D
You'd only be an ass if you had a desecrated copy of the book of Mormon clearly displayed on your front dashboard. ;)
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 09:33:56 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
That's what I thought! But I also did it a little bit to be an ass. ;D
You'd only be an ass if you had a desecrated copy of the book of Mormon clearly displayed on your front dashboard. ;)
Please don't give me that kind of ideas! :P
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 18, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 09:33:56 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
That's what I thought! But I also did it a little bit to be an ass. ;D
You'd only be an ass if you had a desecrated copy of the book of Mormon clearly displayed on your front dashboard. ;)
Please don't give me that kind of ideas! :P
Too late. ;D
In all seriousness, best skip that idea. You don't exactly want the church of Mormon tagging your license plate and forwarding it to the cops with a hate speech complaint. :P
Is hate speech a thing in Norway?
Quote from: Amicale on February 18, 2012, 02:50:31 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 18, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 09:33:56 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
Quote from: Amicale on February 17, 2012, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 17, 2012, 06:33:19 PM
The only mormon temple I have seen in Norway is here in Stavanger.
I have visited them often, but only to steal parking space near work.
:D Hey, it's a win-win situation. You get a parking spot close to work, and they get to look like they have one more devotee because your car's always parked there!
That's what I thought! But I also did it a little bit to be an ass. ;D
You'd only be an ass if you had a desecrated copy of the book of Mormon clearly displayed on your front dashboard. ;)
Please don't give me that kind of ideas! :P
Too late. ;D
In all seriousness, best skip that idea. You don't exactly want the church of Mormon tagging your license plate and forwarding it to the cops with a hate speech complaint. :P
Totally. At most, I would go over it with a red pen and my copy of 'Strunk and White'. Then you're just being helpful.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 18, 2012, 03:15:44 AM
Totally. At most, I would go over it with a red pen and my copy of 'Strunk and White'. Then you're just being helpful.
;D ;D ;D
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flaxallstars.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2Fseal-of-approval-5605.jpg&hash=88665240ebba9df617022065e1a196a98e17d982)
Quote from: Ali on February 18, 2012, 03:14:57 AM
Is hate speech a thing in Norway?
There is such a thing in Norway. But that wouldn't qualify.
My dad says being baptized only makes sense if you're an adult.
Yup, it makes soooo much sense~
e_e
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 19, 2012, 05:40:34 AM
My dad says being baptized only makes sense if you're an adult.
Yup, it makes soooo much sense~
e_e
Well, objectively speaking, it makes more sense to offer an adult the chance to make a choice for themselves rather than baptising a baby shortly after birth and then claiming them for your religion (which it would apparently damn them to hell to leave, although they never chose it). Does the baptism itself make sense though? Nope, but at least allowing people who are WELL above the age of reason to decide for themselves does.
Quote from: Amicale on February 19, 2012, 06:08:07 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 19, 2012, 05:40:34 AM
My dad says being baptized only makes sense if you're an adult.
Yup, it makes soooo much sense~
e_e
Well, objectively speaking, it makes more sense to offer an adult the chance to make a choice for themselves rather than baptising a baby shortly after birth and then claiming them for your religion (which it would apparently damn them to hell to leave, although they never chose it). Does the baptism itself make sense though? Nope, but at least allowing people who are WELL above the age of reason to decide for themselves does.
I agree with this, in spite of how stupid the concept of baptism is.