This is a two part topic.
I understand there is much diversity in homosexual couples, but I notice a lot of couples consisting of a masculine and a feminine pair. I'm curious as to what some of you might think as to why this is so, if you agree that there are more masculine/feminine couples than not in the first place.
When it comes to masculine and feminine homosexuals, I can imagine that being attracted to people of the same sex would probably make it harder to find a potential partner. Lacking physical signs, it would be impossible to tell if someone was gay by appearance alone. Otherwise it would be safe to assume a specific person is not gay. Because of this I can see why some gay women would present themselves as masculine and some gay men as feminine. Obviously some people in general feel masculine or feminine and therfore present themselves accordingly, but I'm wondering why it is so common with homosexuals. Is the reason I mentioned the dominant one or is there a more common reason? Does gender "crisis" have a legitimate hold on this? Personally would not think so, but once again I'm curious as to what you all think.
I don't know if it's actually any more common than masculine/masculine and feminine/feminine. It might be, but then again you might have a little confirmation bias if you're seeing what you expect to see.
I tend to think people in general are happier when they have a companion that balances them out. I don't know of any studies on this, just my opinion based on personal experience with couples that I have personally known (so again, throw in that grain of salt). I am a very analytical person. While I have emotions, I don't let them drive me, and I don't seem to experience them at such a deep level that others I know do. I'm also not very organized. My wife, on the other hand, is very emotional and very organized. Our temperaments really fit well together to fill in the gaps each of us has individually.
If there is a higher incidence of masculine/feminine trait couples in homosexuality, perhaps this is the reason. Still, I see just as many of the masculine/masculine and feminine/feminine couples walking around. As a society, we are finally getting away from being so set in traditional gender roles. I've seen feminine straight guys and masculine straight women as well in greater numbers.
From my experience (gay friends and guys making a move on me) homosexual hit on whoever they like the look of and can get some very nasty reactions but also get lucky as well. It could be a safer alternative or some just may like guys/girls with androgynous characteristics. I would probably say its what they are attracted to over being a safer option though as there are plenty of gay pubs/bars/clubs that provide a safer environment.
Yep, what Fester said.
Would it not be the case that if you paired people at random there would still be predominantly pairings of one more masc and one more fem of the same sex?
Maybe the masc/fem differences are just more noticeable (or more closely scrutinized) in gay couples than heterosexuals.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on February 15, 2012, 01:38:00 PM
Yep, what Fester said.
Would it not be the case that if you paired people at random there would still be predominantly pairings of one more masc and one more fem of the same sex?
Maybe the masc/fem differences are just more noticeable (or more closely scrutinized) in gay couples than heterosexuals.
I defiantly agree with you there. I also think that many heterosexuals see the masculine/feminine traits in gay couples because that is what they are used to dealing with. I also agree with Fester's point on personality balancing. I tend to lean towards more feminine people because I myself am a bit masculine in personality.
I see this more in.male homosexual pairings, I dunno. ( Just to clarify, i've seen ir in.hetero couples as well.)
I loooove wearing make up, getting my hair dyed/styled. My gf doesnt like make up as much, but she lives frilly dresses.
I love both skirts and pants, but prefer pants because I run around a lot xD
I think personality wise, we are both feminine, but she's better business/strategy wuse, and I am better at telling people what to do (cuz i'm from NYC! Lol)
I think EVERY couple has a balance. People tend to forget there as bossy hetero girls and submisive hetero males too!
I think hetero people just WANT Gay couples to be a stereotype, so they can pick them.out easier. *eye roll*
People who first meet me don't know I love women until I speak of my gf.
I think there are cultural elements to it, as well. The gay community is, well, a gay community and I do think that some behaviours are learned and formed within that community - I think this applies to a fem/butch dichotomy to a certain extent.
That doesn't mean a feminine gay man is being "fake", but I'm not convinced that any "gendered" expression is 100% genetic. I, personally, know a handful of gay men who became noticeably more feminine after they came out. Were they always that feminine and they suppressed it or did they "pick up" some mannerisms from the gay community? Maybe a bit of both, but I don't think it really matters.
Personally, I think probably 85%+ of all gendered norms (hetero or otherwise) are cultural constructs.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 19, 2012, 08:03:41 PM
I think there are cultural elements to it, as well. The gay community is, well, as gay community and I do think that some behaviours are learned and formed within that community - I think this applies to a fem/butch dichotomy to a certain extent.
That doesn't mean a feminine gay man is being "fake", but I'm not convinced that any "gendered" expression is 100% genetic. I, personally, know a handful of gay men who became noticeably more feminine after they came out. Where they always that feminine and they suppressed it or did they "pick up" some mannerisms from the gay community? Maybe a bit of both, but I don't think it really matters.
Personally, I think probably 85%+ of all gendered norms (hetero or otherwise) are cultural constructs.
This.
Each culture represents gender norms very differently, in terms of how people present themselves. Same goes with how sexuality is seen and presented. While it's certainly true that personal preferences/choices factor into how we present ourselves, cultural expectations and labels factor into it just as much. That, and I don't think there's anything wrong with presenting yourself a specific way in order to 'label' yourself for the general public. We all do it, actually. We want to be seen as unique, but sometimes we also want to break stereotypes or fall into them, depending on the particular group we want to identify with or want others to see us as identifying with. It's pretty fluid, really. It can change depending on context. For example, a feminine gay man may dress, act and walk a certain way on a casual day/among friends, and may dress, act and walk differently when he's visiting his conservative relatives for a holiday. ;)
Definitely a significant part biology, as far as the research shows. One of the big factors in pre-determining homosexuality is prenatal androgen exposure. It causes changes in the brain, feminizing male fetuses and masculinizing female fetuses. I don't think it's a big leap to say that this would have an influence on social behaviour.
Quote from: Genericguy on February 15, 2012, 09:17:37 AM
I understand there is much diversity in homosexual couples, but I notice a lot of couples consisting of a masculine and a feminine pair. I'm curious as to what some of you might think as to why this is so, if you agree that there are more masculine/feminine couples than not in the first place.
It hasn't been my experience that homosexual couples generally pair up as butch/femme, tho of course some do. The female couples I know look and act like two women, the male couples like two men. But then I've lived in large So. Calif. cities my whole life which I'm sure restricts my experience and I do wonder if things might be different in other places, or small towns -- places where traditional mindsets and assumptions could hold more sway.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 20, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Definitely a significant part biology, as far as the research shows. One of the big factors in pre-determining homosexuality is prenatal androgen exposure. It causes changes in the brain, feminizing male fetuses and masculinizing female fetuses. I don't think it's a big leap to say that this would have an influence on social behaviour.
I think there should be a distinction made between homosexuality and fem/masculine behaviour. They are two entirely different things. You might be able to measure homosexual acts, but how do you measure feminine or masculine traits? Someone, somewhere has to arbitrarily decide what constitutes feminine and what constitutes masculine. And, like I said, I'd argue that's almost entirely socially constructed.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 20, 2012, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 20, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Definitely a significant part biology, as far as the research shows. One of the big factors in pre-determining homosexuality is prenatal androgen exposure. It causes changes in the brain, feminizing male fetuses and masculinizing female fetuses. I don't think it's a big leap to say that this would have an influence on social behaviour.
I think there should be a distinction made between homosexuality and fem/masculine behaviour. They are two entirely different things. You might be able to measure homosexual acts, but how do you measure feminine or masculine traits? Someone, somewhere has to arbitrarily decide what constitutes feminine and what constitutes masculine. And, like I said, I'd argue that's almost entirely socially constructed.
I agree, DJ. masc/femm traits are completely social. To me, the only difference are genitals.
A guy wears pink dress shirts. A girl plays with tanks.
What is the difference in gender?
I play bloody zombie games and survival horror games. Love DC /Marvel comics, but also makeup and my little ponies. I'm still a girl no matter what I wear , like ,or do.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 20, 2012, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 20, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Definitely a significant part biology, as far as the research shows. One of the big factors in pre-determining homosexuality is prenatal androgen exposure. It causes changes in the brain, feminizing male fetuses and masculinizing female fetuses. I don't think it's a big leap to say that this would have an influence on social behaviour.
I think there should be a distinction made between homosexuality and fem/masculine behaviour. They are two entirely different things. You might be able to measure homosexual acts, but how do you measure feminine or masculine traits? Someone, somewhere has to arbitrarily decide what constitutes feminine and what constitutes masculine. And, like I said, I'd argue that's almost entirely socially constructed.
A neurologist would do an infinitely better job explaining it, but there are physical differences between the male and female brain. Decent basic explanations:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/men-women-different-brains.htm
We can even see the masculine/feminine difference in chimp behaviour:
http://www.dailytech.com/Male+And+Female+Chimps+Play+Differently/article20457.htm
Is a lot of gender-exclusive behaviour socially caused? Almost definitely. Is all of it? Ohhhh no. There's a reason we buy baby dolls for our girls and toy trucks for our boys, and it isn't all marketing.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 22, 2012, 05:13:25 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on February 20, 2012, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 20, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Definitely a significant part biology, as far as the research shows. One of the big factors in pre-determining homosexuality is prenatal androgen exposure. It causes changes in the brain, feminizing male fetuses and masculinizing female fetuses. I don't think it's a big leap to say that this would have an influence on social behaviour.
I think there should be a distinction made between homosexuality and fem/masculine behaviour. They are two entirely different things. You might be able to measure homosexual acts, but how do you measure feminine or masculine traits? Someone, somewhere has to arbitrarily decide what constitutes feminine and what constitutes masculine. And, like I said, I'd argue that's almost entirely socially constructed.
A neurologist would do an infinitely better job explaining it, but there are physical differences between the male and female brain. Decent basic explanations:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/men-women-different-brains.htm
We can even see the masculine/feminine difference in chimp behaviour:
http://www.dailytech.com/Male+And+Female+Chimps+Play+Differently/article20457.htm
Is a lot of gender-exclusive behaviour socially caused? Almost definitely. Is all of it? Ohhhh no. There's a reason we buy baby dolls for our girls and toy trucks for our boys, and it isn't all marketing.
In a book by Dr. Robert Winston (a very anti-cool and inspiring writer and broadcaster) called 'The Human Mind' he explains the reason for the physical differences in male and female brains. It's all to do with testosterone. Testosterone inhibits the cross-wiring of neuron connections across the hemispheres of the brain in development. Of course testosterone levels are typically higher in males leading to greater intra-hemisphere connections. This accounts in no small way for the typically more emotionally connected female thinking and typically more focussed mathematical thinking of males.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on February 22, 2012, 08:23:19 AM
In a book by Dr. Robert Winston (a very anti-cool and inspiring writer and broadcaster) called 'The Human Mind' he explains the reason for the physical differences in male and female brains. It's all to do with testosterone. Testosterone inhibits the cross-wiring of neuron connections across the hemispheres of the brain in development. Of course testosterone levels are typically higher in males leading to greater intra-hemisphere connections. This accounts in no small way for the typically more emotionally connected female thinking and typically more focussed mathematical thinking of males.
Testosterone levels in the unborn are only one factor in gendering a person. This hormonal difference is sometimes used to explain transgender experiences, but feminine or masculine traits are subtle behavioural cultural things. Even traits like women being better at reading emotions or men being better at reading maps have been shown to be based on people behaving as they are expected to behave for their gender, and not a true sex difference (Fine, C (2010)
Delusions of Gender London:Icon Books).
There was a piece of research published in 2009, which I can't cite off the top of my head, which demonstrated that neuropsychs can tell whether a man is gay or not from a brain scan, but I argue that this is not evidence that sexuality is innate, on the grounds that neurological development is dependant on being raised in a culture.
I think that we are sensitive to differences in gender performances and tend to take note when a behaviour varies from a clear set of gendered expectations. I think the idea that gay couples can be divided into one masculine and one feminine partner is an attempt to understand gay relationships in more comparable terms to heterosexual relationships. This has not been my experience, and I've had more girlfriends than I have hot dinners.
Sorry this seems like only half an argument, but I'm not being marked on it.
x
Willow.
Quote from: Willow on February 24, 2012, 12:16:41 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on February 22, 2012, 08:23:19 AM
In a book by Dr. Robert Winston (a very anti-cool and inspiring writer and broadcaster) called 'The Human Mind' he explains the reason for the physical differences in male and female brains. It's all to do with testosterone. Testosterone inhibits the cross-wiring of neuron connections across the hemispheres of the brain in development. Of course testosterone levels are typically higher in males leading to greater intra-hemisphere connections. This accounts in no small way for the typically more emotionally connected female thinking and typically more focussed mathematical thinking of males.
Testosterone levels in the unborn are only one factor in gendering a person. This hormonal difference is sometimes used to explain transgender experiences, but feminine or masculine traits are subtle behavioural cultural things. Even traits like women being better at reading emotions or men being better at reading maps have been shown to be based on people behaving as they are expected to behave for their gender, and not a true sex difference (Fine, C (2010) Delusions of Gender London:Icon Books).
There was a piece of research published in 2009, which I can't cite off the top of my head, which demonstrated that neuropsychs can tell whether a man is gay or not from a brain scan, but I argue that this is not evidence that sexuality is innate, on the grounds that neurological development is dependant on being raised in a culture.
I wonder about that research. Just from a brain scan, how would they be able to determine whether someone's gay? On the Kinsey scale (and other diagnostic/assessment criteria as well) there are different degrees of the sexual spectrum, ranging everywhere from exclusive heterosexual physical relationships to exclusive homosexual ones, and absolutely everything inbetween. How would they be able to tell, for instance, if someone is attracted to someone of the same sex, but perhaps also attracted to the opposite sex? What would they make of people who are trans? How about people who say they deliberately choose relationships with the same sex, but don't believe it's biological in themselves (yes, these folks exist). Like you said, being raised in a culture is a HUGE factor for sure.
QuoteI think that we are sensitive to differences in gender performances and tend to take note when a behaviour varies from a clear set of gendered expectations. I think the idea that gay couples can be divided into one masculine and one feminine partner is an attempt to understand gay relationships in more comparable terms to heterosexual relationships. This has not been my experience, and I've had more girlfriends than I have hot dinners.
Sorry this seems like only half an argument, but I'm not being marked on it.
x
Willow.
:D Either you've eaten a lot of cold dinners, or you're just really, really lucky.
Quote from: Amicale on February 24, 2012, 12:57:26 AM
I wonder about that research. Just from a brain scan, how would they be able to determine whether someone's gay? On the Kinsey scale (and other diagnostic/assessment criteria as well) there are different degrees of the sexual spectrum, ranging everywhere from exclusive heterosexual physical relationships to exclusive homosexual ones, and absolutely everything inbetween. How would they be able to tell, for instance, if someone is attracted to someone of the same sex, but perhaps also attracted to the opposite sex? What would they make of people who are trans? How about people who say they deliberately choose relationships with the same sex, but don't believe it's biological in themselves (yes, these folks exist). Like you said, being raised in a culture is a HUGE factor for sure.
Neuro connections in the brain are made and atrophied all the time. Any pattern of thought is a series of physical connections. The more a 'pattern' is used, the more solid are the connections made. (This is how's skills are learned). And if those neural pathways are not used they die away (we forget skills we haven't practiced for a while).
A gay person is going to make (or was inherently wired with) connections between the parts of the brain related to amorous and/or sexual arousal and the parts of the brain related to imaging people (or individuals) of the same sex. There is a physical aspect to the thought process.
So, it does seem reasonable to see how the thought processes (neuro connection patterns) involved in sexuality may be studied in a physical way. And I'd speculate that depending on the level of activity in the centres relating to male or female imaging, concurrently with arousal centres we may even be able to ascertain where on the sexual spectrum we are.
As Willow has said, none of this either proves or disproves the innate nature of sexuality.
Why are there cultural differences in gender to begin with? Because there is inherent gender-specific behaviour as a result of brain wiring. It can be seen in animals too; comparative gender roles are obvious.
I had read a bit about this subject in the run-up to the birth of my firstborn and I was mindful of the question of nature v's nurture. So we were consciously very gender neutral with our boy. But it was proven, from a very early age that there were gender characteristic behaviours being demonstrated - despite a concerted effort in our aggregate choice of toys and modes of play to be neutral.
Of course I cannot garantee that our own cultural programming didn't interfere, but what can you do?!
Scissorlegs, thanks for explaining it that way. That makes sense. :)