Had this thought just now: If I was dying and alone in a hospital, and wanted to talk to someone for comfort or just to have someone there, who would I ask for? The 'normal' thing would be to ask for a priest or pastor, but really, well, I don't need to go on about how horrible that would be. Maybe some would say, "Why are you afraid? You won't know you're dead when you're dead." Some might be at peace with that and have no fear, but I somehow doubt that could be said for all or even most.
When I was working in long term care, and someone was actively dying, there was a volunteer organization (Candlelight Vigil something) we could call to ensure that that person would not be alone in their final moments (I myself spent many hours at bedsides in this manner). Of course, in this sort of situation, the person would be at most barely aware of the presence of other people. And if I called such a volunteer for myself, who's to say that a theistic volunteer wouldn't show up and offer the sort of condolences I would find void of meaning, or even depressing? And if I asked for an atheist volunteer, would they have the philosophical grounding I desired to provide meaningful conversation and comfort?
This is a very good question. I did consider become a hospice volunteer but felt I'd get too involved.
In your experience what do people need in their last moments/
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 11, 2012, 09:30:12 PM
Had this thought just now: If I was dying and alone in a hospital, and wanted to talk to someone for comfort or just to have someone there, who would I ask for? The 'normal' thing would be to ask for a priest or pastor, but really, well, I don't need to go on about how horrible that would be. Maybe some would say, "Why are you afraid? You won't know you're dead when you're dead." Some might be at peace with that and have no fear, but I somehow doubt that could be said for all or even most.
I find that completely uncomforting and beside the point. The point is that you're unhappy
now about having to leave the party, perhaps before you're ready to go. And of course being told about an imaginary world after death is equally uncomforting when you don't believe in such things. It seems not much is left but to have someone hold your hand and make comfortaing noises while you cry or complain about dying, or make comforting small talk about this and that. That's what I hope for if I die with enough presence of mind to take it in -- someone who'll tell me what a beautiful day it is, or about a cheerful article in the newspaper, or their kid's piano recital. Since I'm going to be deprived of all these things soon, I'd want to enjoy them one last time however I could.
QuoteWhen I was working in long term care, and someone was actively dying, there was a volunteer organization (Candlelight Vigil something) we could call to ensure that that person would not be alone in their final moments (I myself spent many hours at bedsides in this manner). Of course, in this sort of situation, the person would be at most barely aware of the presence of other people. And if I called such a volunteer for myself, who's to say that a theistic volunteer wouldn't show up and offer the sort of condolences I would find void of meaning, or even depressing? And if I asked for an atheist volunteer, would they have the philosophical grounding I desired to provide meaningful conversation and comfort?
I'd hope you could specify what sort of condolances you were looking for ("no god stuff", for instance). What would you consider meaningful conversation and comfort before death for an atheist? Mine could be easily provided for by anyone, theist or atheist, unless that person had an objection to atheists and either didn't think we deserved comfort or couldn't resist last minute preaching.
If I were dying, and 'with it' enough to be aware that was the case, I believe I'd request favourite photos, music, and any friends and family around me just to come 'hang out' so we could chat, and say whatever we needed to say. If it was a situation where I was away from loved ones/something sudden and they just couldn't be there, I think I'd probably prefer someone sitting there who'd just be willing to hold my hand and laugh with me. I'd ask them for funny stories from their life, and if I could, share some of mine. I might be with strangers, but when it comes down to it, I can think of worse ways to go out than with a smile on my face.
That's actually how an elderly lady died who we knew. My mom worked in nursing at the time, and this woman was very sweet, very funny. Her family lived across the country. She took a downhill turn suddenly, so fast that her kids wouldn't have been able to make it there on time... so the nurses just made sure that a) she was never alone b) she had pictures of her family all around her c) she spent as much time humanly possible on the phone with them and finally, d) she was surrounded by happy, positive people who had come to love her. The day actually went fine, as fine as deaths can go. She died with 3 of her favourite nurses in her room, while they told her stories about their children and pets, and she smiled along before passing away.
If you were in that situation and there were a humanist celebrant in town you could request one.
The optimal death for me would be from driving into a tornado at the age of 90. However, if faced with the situation where I was in a hospital or something and about to die, I wouldn't have to worry about being alone. My wife has promised under penalty of death that she would outlive me, so I'm good. She knows if she dies before me, I'll kill her, and I know she doesn't want that.
I always thought music would provide a comforting exit. Though, I sometimes have flashes of myself expiring in a car wreck in mid station search with the dial stopped on some crappy country station.
Quote from: Tank on February 11, 2012, 09:34:01 PM
This is a very good question. I did consider become a hospice volunteer but felt I'd get too involved.
In your experience what do people need in their last moments/
My experience is limited to the very old, and often demented. Active dying in these cases is usually brought on by complete organ failure (e.g. CHF or renal failure), or infection. Consciousness degrades as the illness progresses - lucidity becomes more unstable and increasingly brief. Physical comfort is provided by subcutaneous or intravenous fluids, to thin mucous and make breathing easier and less painful; narcotics; repositioning if necessary (but to be avoided if the person appears comfortable). Emotional comfort I could provide by physical touch (e.g. holding their hand, rubbing their back), singing or reading, playing soft music, conversation about their lives (if lucid), and yes, prayer (if they were religious). There were many times when I would pray with, or offer prayer, to someone I knew found comfort in this act - one benefit of growing up in a religious household was knowing how, and what words to say. Most of the time, I felt woefully inadequate and inexperienced to provide anything more than what I mentioned - perhaps due to lack of life experience.
To summarize as briefly as I can, I'm aware that there are many things which may bring a dying person comfort - reflection on past achievements and memories, expressions of love from family and friends, humor, simple conversation, meditation, and philosophical reflection. Every individual puts a different emotional value on each of these things, so there is no one combination that suits everyone. What we can say differs most markedly between a dying atheist and a dying theist is the philosophical position from which we view death. If I know my time is short, I may still have unanswered questions or unalleviated fears that I wish to discuss with someone who shares my base philosophical position. Whether or not any conclusion comes to them, I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts.
One of Stephen Hawking's colleagues (not sure which one) said that if he ever found himself ill with terminal disease, and knew his end was near, the way he would like to go would be to travel to the event horizon of a black hole. In theory, as you were falling in, you would in an instant see through all of time - past and future. Of course it would probably happen much too fast to register in the mind, but I found this thought particularly poetic.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 01:22:54 AM
What we can say differs most markedly between a dying atheist and a dying theist is the philosophical position from which we view death. If I know my time is short, I may still have unanswered questions or unalleviated fears that I wish to discuss with someone who shares my base philosophical position. Whether or not any conclusion comes to them, I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts.
I can understand that, but somehow I don't think I'll care about any of it once the moment comes. I see philosophical questions as being for when you have time and leisure, when my time is rolling up I think it'll only be the basic things that matter.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 12, 2012, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 01:22:54 AM
What we can say differs most markedly between a dying atheist and a dying theist is the philosophical position from which we view death. If I know my time is short, I may still have unanswered questions or unalleviated fears that I wish to discuss with someone who shares my base philosophical position. Whether or not any conclusion comes to them, I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts.
I can understand that, but somehow I don't think I'll care about any of it once the moment comes. I see philosophical questions as being for when you have time and leisure, when my time is rolling up I think it'll only be the basic things that matter.
But what if your clock starts running out faster than you expected? I would hope to have my philosophical uncertainties pretty well resolved towards the end of my natural life too, but what if I was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer tomorrow and realize my existence may be counted in only weeks or months, not decades?
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 03:16:58 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 12, 2012, 02:42:53 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 01:22:54 AM
What we can say differs most markedly between a dying atheist and a dying theist is the philosophical position from which we view death. If I know my time is short, I may still have unanswered questions or unalleviated fears that I wish to discuss with someone who shares my base philosophical position. Whether or not any conclusion comes to them, I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts.
I can understand that, but somehow I don't think I'll care about any of it once the moment comes. I see philosophical questions as being for when you have time and leisure, when my time is rolling up I think it'll only be the basic things that matter.
But what if your clock starts running out faster than you expected? I would hope to have my philosophical uncertainties pretty well resolved towards the end of my natural life too, but what if I was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer tomorrow and realize my existence may be counted in only weeks or months, not decades?
Hmmm... BooksCatsEtc, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're talking about 'time rolling up' to maybe mean the last couple days or hours, in which case only basic things may matter. Dobermonster, in the situation you're talking about, if you have weeks or months, I guess you can still say you have some time to sort things out.
We're born on our deathbeds. Forty years or forty minutes is just details. I'm comfortable enough here without the empty promises of religion.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind a bit of sexual deviance, a platter of experiences both beautiful, mundane and monstrous, fine music and a few good laughs before I go. Might as well play with life a little, since I've got it to hand.
Quote from: DobermonsterBut what if your clock starts running out faster than you expected? I would hope to have my philosophical uncertainties pretty well resolved towards the end of my natural life too, but what if I was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer tomorrow and realize my existence may be counted in only weeks or months, not decades?
I've settled on the idea that I'll never resolve enough philosophical uncertainties to make me content about dying.
We want death to be like the full stop at the end of a sentence, neatly containing everything that comes before it in some overall meaning or form. We want it to crystallise our lives into a whole. That's why the immanence of death is always terrifying, I think. When it's right on our doorstep we realise that it contains no such resolution - it's more of a weak and empty...
I think if you can somehow come to terms with the meaninglessness of life, accept that nothing is ever resolved or fulfilled in the way that we try to tell ourselves it is when we read stories, or compartmentalise history, or talk about our day, death becomes a bit less frightening.
Quote from: Melmoth on February 12, 2012, 03:52:02 AM
I think if you can somehow come to terms with the meaninglessness of life, accept that nothing is ever resolved or fulfilled in the way that we try to tell ourselves it is when we read stories, or compartmentalise history, or talk about our day, death becomes a bit less frightening.
I just want to ask you what you mean when you say life is meaningless. Don't we basically create our own meaning, and give things and people in it value, even if it or they are just of value to us? Don't get me wrong, I understand that things don't get resolved or fulfilled most of the time, and when most of us die, there will be plenty of 'loose ends' we never got answers for. But I'm not sure that takes away the meaning in our lives. Unless you're not talking about individual lives, but life itself in general due to there being no 'ultimate' (aka supernatural) purpose?
Quote from: AmicileQuote from: MelmothI think if you can somehow come to terms with the meaninglessness of life, accept that nothing is ever resolved or fulfilled in the way that we try to tell ourselves it is when we read stories, or compartmentalise history, or talk about our day, death becomes a bit less frightening.
I just want to ask you what you mean when you say life is meaningless. Don't we basically create our own meaning, and give things and people in it value, even if it or they are just of value to us? Don't get me wrong, I understand that things don't get resolved or fulfilled most of the time, and when most of us die, there will be plenty of 'loose ends' we never got answers for. But I'm not sure that takes away the meaning in our lives. Unless you're not talking about individual lives, but life itself in general due to there being no 'ultimate' (aka supernatural) purpose?
I wouldn't say an ultimate meaning would have to be 'supernatural' necessarily. An ultimate meaning could be as contrived, man-made and arbitrary as all the other, mini-meanings we superimpose onto our surroundings.
My point was that thinking about death makes us want to consider life as a whole, in its entirety. So it, the whole of it, becomes the loose end that we want to tie up. There's a tendency to look for a total, sum, single meaning of all our experience combined. Lacking that, death is unsatisfying. Now, as to man made meaning, maybe people will look back on my life in the future and cherry-pick bits here and there to put me in a box of some kind - remember me as the person who invented self-replenishing hand soap or something - but I lack the capacity to do that for myself. Life's just too big.
Quote from: Melmoth on February 12, 2012, 04:26:04 AM
Quote from: AmicileQuote from: MelmothI think if you can somehow come to terms with the meaninglessness of life, accept that nothing is ever resolved or fulfilled in the way that we try to tell ourselves it is when we read stories, or compartmentalise history, or talk about our day, death becomes a bit less frightening.
I just want to ask you what you mean when you say life is meaningless. Don't we basically create our own meaning, and give things and people in it value, even if it or they are just of value to us? Don't get me wrong, I understand that things don't get resolved or fulfilled most of the time, and when most of us die, there will be plenty of 'loose ends' we never got answers for. But I'm not sure that takes away the meaning in our lives. Unless you're not talking about individual lives, but life itself in general due to there being no 'ultimate' (aka supernatural) purpose?
I wouldn't say an ultimate meaning would have to be 'supernatural' necessarily. An ultimate meaning could be as contrived, man-made and arbitrary as all the other, mini-meanings we superimpose onto our surroundings.
My point was that thinking about death makes us want to consider life as a whole, in its entirety. So it, the whole of it, becomes the loose end that we want to tie up. There's a tendency to look for a total, sum, single meaning of all our experience combined. Lacking that, death is unsatisfying. Now, as to man made meaning, maybe people will look back on my life in the future and cherry-pick bits here and there to put me in a box of some kind - remember me as the person who invented self-replenishing hand soap or something - but I lack the capacity to do that for myself. Life's just too big.
Eh, OK. Thanks for explaining, and I do understand what you meant.
When I think of my life as a whole up to this point though, I can honestly say that if I get suddenly hit by a bus tomorrow and had about 30 seconds to reflect on life before dying, the total sum, single meaning of my life would be that I've tried to be a decent person towards others, and I'm raising a daughter who I love more than I'll ever love anyone -- she's my pride and joy, and being her mama is the greatest privilege I'll ever have. So, for me, although it's arbitrary (which as you pointed out could work!) it's good enough. :)
Death is sometimes a full stop, and sometimes it is an ellipsis. To be relevant to this discussion, we have to assume the latter.
I feel the need to restate the premise of this particular discussion . . . will cleave from a previous post:
"Whether or not any conclusion comes to [philosophical conversations], I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts."
You can say that these thoughts are irrelevant, or unlikely, or should be wrapped up by the time we're packing to leave, and you may be right (the first two are entirely subjective). However, it can't be said that there will never be a time when a person lies ill and alone, in the dark, observing that their breath that night comes yet more painfully and with more effort than that morning, in the knowledge it will only become more painful and require more of his dwindling strength, until it no longer comes at all. And that person is afraid.
Who do they call to help calm their fears?
When I say philosophical conversation, I don't mean a lengthy discussion on Sartre and existentialism. Maybe it would be better described as "reflection". The point, though, has to do with who you would have available to reflect with. The dying Christian who calls for his pastor hasn't forgotten what he believes; he doesn't need to be reminded. He wants someone who shares his worldview to talk to and bring comfort in words. What am I asking is, who can the non-believer call on? Or is it a meaningless question? I don't think so, but I am very tired at the moment.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
Death is sometimes a full stop, and sometimes it is an ellipsis. To be relevant to this discussion, we have to assume the latter.
I feel the need to restate the premise of this particular discussion . . . will cleave from a previous post:
"Whether or not any conclusion comes to [philosophical conversations], I fear being alone and emotionally isolated with these thoughts."
You can say that these thoughts are irrelevant, or unlikely, or should be wrapped up by the time we're packing to leave, and you may be right (the first two are entirely subjective). However, it can't be said that there will never be a time when a person lies ill and alone, in the dark, observing that their breath that night comes yet more painfully and with more effort than that morning, in the knowledge it will only become more painful and require more of his dwindling strength, until it no longer comes at all. And that person is afraid.
Who do they call to help calm their fears?
When I say philosophical conversation, I don't mean a lengthy discussion on Sartre and existentialism. Maybe it would be better described as "reflection". The point, though, has to do with who you would have available to reflect with. The dying Christian who calls for his pastor hasn't forgotten what he believes; he doesn't need to be reminded. He wants someone who shares his worldview to talk to and bring comfort in words. What am I asking is, who can the non-believer call on? Or is it a meaningless question? I don't think so, but I am very tired at the moment.
I think it was Whitney earlier, who said maybe finding a Humanist celebrant in your area would be an idea, if it was possible. There are Humanist organizations across the world ( http://www.iheu.org/geography ) and it might be comforting to call someone who could come and speak to you who more or less shares your worldview, can speak comfort to you, maybe help put things in perspective, reflect on life etc with you. I do understand that not all non-believers would consider themselves humanists, though. :) And nope, it's not a meaningless question. Not at all. It's an important one, actually.
Quote from: Amicale on February 12, 2012, 04:51:16 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
I think it was Whitney earlier, who said maybe finding a Humanist celebrant in your area would be an idea, if it was possible. There are Humanist organizations across the world ( http://www.iheu.org/geography ) and it might be comforting to call someone who could come and speak to you who more or less shares your worldview, can speak comfort to you, maybe help put things in perspective, reflect on life etc with you. I do understand that not all non-believers would consider themselves humanists, though. :) And nope, it's not a meaningless question. Not at all. It's an important one, actually.
I've never heard the words "Humanist celebrant" put together before, lol, but I'm still fairly new to humanism as a concept. From what I'm reading, that sounds about right. I did see Whitney's post earlier, then got a bit sidetracked with the all the other little niggly bits.
(As another aside, sounds like it could be interesting job . . . hmm . . . )
There are far, far too few of these folks in the country. Couldn't even find *one* for my province. :(
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 05:20:42 AM
Quote from: Amicale on February 12, 2012, 04:51:16 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
I think it was Whitney earlier, who said maybe finding a Humanist celebrant in your area would be an idea, if it was possible. There are Humanist organizations across the world ( http://www.iheu.org/geography ) and it might be comforting to call someone who could come and speak to you who more or less shares your worldview, can speak comfort to you, maybe help put things in perspective, reflect on life etc with you. I do understand that not all non-believers would consider themselves humanists, though. :) And nope, it's not a meaningless question. Not at all. It's an important one, actually.
I've never heard the words "Humanist celebrant" put together before, lol, but I'm still fairly new to humanism as a concept. From what I'm reading, that sounds about right. I did see Whitney's post earlier, then got a bit sidetracked with the all the other little niggly bits.
(As another aside, sounds like it could be interesting job . . . hmm . . . )
There are far, far too few of these folks in the country. Couldn't even find *one* for my province. :(
http://bchumanist.ca/pipermail/chatter_bchumanist.ca/2012-January/000044.html
They're actually taking applications for people to get trained and become BC's first humanist celebrant! Woo hoo!
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 03:16:58 AM
But what if your clock starts running out faster than you expected? I would hope to have my philosophical uncertainties pretty well resolved towards the end of my natural life too, but what if I was diagnosed with an aggressive cancer tomorrow and realize my existence may be counted in only weeks or months, not decades?
I don't think it would matter how much or little time I had, I think it would be the effect of facing the final reality -- no more me -- that would sort out my priorities in favor of the basics, "the little things", and away from philosophical concerns. But then, I won't really know for sure until that final moment.
Quote from: Amicale on February 12, 2012, 03:34:16 AM
Hmmm... BooksCatsEtc, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're talking about 'time rolling up' to maybe mean the last couple days or hours, in which case only basic things may matter. Dobermonster, in the situation you're talking about, if you have weeks or months, I guess you can still say you have some time to sort things out.
You're not wrong -- I should have read ahead!
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 12, 2012, 04:44:39 AM
When I say philosophical conversation, I don't mean a lengthy discussion on Sartre and existentialism. Maybe it would be better described as "reflection". The point, though, has to do with who you would have available to reflect with. The dying Christian who calls for his pastor hasn't forgotten what he believes; he doesn't need to be reminded. He wants someone who shares his worldview to talk to and bring comfort in words. What am I asking is, who can the non-believer call on? Or is it a meaningless question? I don't think so, but I am very tired at the moment.
I think it might be an impossible question. The relgious have a lot more in common with one another philosophically than atheists do so even if we could get a humanist celebrant, there's no guarantee they'd have any comfort to offer that would be meaningful to
us. I mean, suppose you got someone who gave you the "don't worry about death because you won't know it when you're dead" line (which is admittedly quite popular among atheists)? To be an atheist is, for many of us, to live with doubt and I think that's going to be as true on our deathbeds as it is in our lives.
Quote from: DobermonsterThe point, though, has to do with who you would have available to reflect with. The dying Christian who calls for his pastor hasn't forgotten what he believes; he doesn't need to be reminded. He wants someone who shares his worldview to talk to and bring comfort in words. What am I asking is, who can the non-believer call on? Or is it a meaningless question? I don't think so, but I am very tired at the moment.
You and me both. I haven't been able to sleep all night and it's now nearly 10AM in my part of the world. On Sunday. "Day of rest" indeed. ::)
Personal preference: I'd want someone who could keep my mind off the subject of death altogether. I'd like to die during a normal, cheerful conversation with a friend, about something that's totally irrelevant - a film we both liked, how stupid one of us looks in that shirt, how crap the hospital food is - and just to fade out somewhere mid-sentence. I feel that would be a much happier way to go, much more genuine and strangely profound, than having to deal with all that phony consolation crap. I think any clumsy musings about the hereafter or (I suppose, as an atheistic alternative) the 'legacy' that I'll leave behind would just seem stupid, depressing and inappropriate at that time.
Quote from: Melmoth on February 12, 2012, 03:52:02 AM
I've settled on the idea that I'll never resolve enough philosophical uncertainties to make me content about dying.
This. It doesn't matter if I live 10 more minutes or 80 more years, I don't think I'll ever have it all sorted out enough within my own head that I won't mind dying. Honestly, in my last weeks and days, I think I will prefer to stop asking the big questions, and just be with people that care a little bit about me and make me smile.
It seems that the majority of normal, very intelligent people here would have a problem with giving up themselves, giving up their lives, having it all end. People here seem to genuinely love the continuation of life itself, and so you folks seem to have a healthy, normal fear of it ending. I like all of you very much, and I'm not trying to be a drama queen, but moments like this just remind me that whatever goes on in my head... it ain't normal. :P I don't think the way most people do, I guess. *shrug* Believe me, that's a good thing, I wouldn't want anyone here to think this way. For me though, death's just one more thing that might happen. I don't fear it. In some ways, I expect it eventually. It won't surprise me. That's probably the depression and its surrounding issues talking, though. In fact, the only reason I don't fully WELCOME it is because I don't want to leave my little girl and my loved ones.
((Amicale))
I expect death too. It will come for us all, one day. I want to drag my feet about it, but I know it's inevitable. However, I'm sorry that your depression issues make it so that you might almost welcome it. Not to pry, but have you seen anyone about the way you're feeling? I was in a pretty dark place last summer, but I started talking with a counselor and taking some anti-depressants, and it's really helped a lot. I'm actually thinking about asking about weaning off the anti-depressants. I think I just needed something to pull me up a little bit and give me the space to deal with things with a more clear head, if that makes sense. Anyway, if you ever need to talk, please feel free to PM me. ((Hugs))
because I love you all, read on from http://www.sade-ecrivain.com/Dialogue-Between-a-Priest-and-a-Dying-Man.html (http://www.sade-ecrivain.com/Dialogue-Between-a-Priest-and-a-Dying-Man.html)
Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man
(1782)
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PRIEST - Come to this the fatal hour when at last from the eyes of deluded man the scales must fall away, and be shown the cruel picture of his errors and his vices - say, my son, do you not repent the host of sins unto which you were led by weakness and human frailty?
DYING MAN - Yes, my friend, I do repent.
PRIEST - Rejoice then in these pangs of remorse, during the brief space remaining to you profit therefrom to obtain Heaven's general absolution for your sins, and be mindful of it, only through the mediation of the Most Holy Sacrament of penance will you be granted it by the Eternal.
DYING MAN - I do not understand you, any more than you have understood me.
PRIEST - Eh?
DYING MAN - I told you that I repented.
PRIEST - I heard you say it.
DYING MAN - Yes, but without understanding it.
PRIEST - My interpretation -
DYING MAN - Hold. I shall give you mine. By Nature created, created with very keen tastes, with very strong passions; placed on this earth for the sole purpose of yielding to them and satisfying them, and these effects of my creation being naught but necessities directly relating to Nature's fundamental designs or, if you prefer, naught but essential derivatives proceeding from her intentions in my regard, all in accordance with her laws, I repent not having acknowledged her omnipotence as fully as I might have done, I am only sorry for the modest use I made of the faculties (criminal in your view, perfectly ordinary in mine) she gave me to serve her; I did sometimes resist her, I repent it. Misled by your absurd doctrines, with them for arms I mindlessly challenged the desires instilled in me by a much diviner inspiration, and thereof do I repent: I only plucked an occasional flower when I might have gathered an ample harvest of fruit - such are the just grounds for the regrets I have, do me the honor of considering me incapable of harboring any others.
PRIEST - Lo! where your fallacies take you, to what pass are you brought by your sophistries! To created being you ascribe all the Creator's power, and those unlucky penchants which have led you astray, ah! do you not see they are merely the products of corrupted nature, to which you attribute omnipotence?
DYING MAN -Friend - it looks to me as though your dialectic were as false as your thinking. Pray straighten your arguing or else leave me to die in peace. What do you mean by Creator, and what do you mean by corrupted nature?
PRIEST - The Creator is the master of the universe, 'tis He who has wrought everything, everything created, and who maintains it all through the mere fact of His omnipotence.
DYING MAN - An impressive figure indeed. Tell me now why this so very formidable fellow did nevertheless, as you would have it, create a corrupted nature?
PRIEST - What glory would men ever have, had not God left them free will; and in the enjoyment thereof, what merit could come to them, were there not on earth the possibility of doing good and that of avoiding evil?
DYING MAN - And so your god bungled his work deliberately, in order to tempt or test his creature - did he then not know, did he then not doubt what the result would be?
PRIEST - He knew it undoubtedly but, once again, he wished to leave man the merit of choice.
DYING MAN - And to what purpose, since from the outset he knew the course affairs would take and since, all-mighty as you tell me he is, he had but to make his creature choose as suited him?
PRIEST - Who is there can penetrate God's vast and infinite designs regarding man, and who can grasp all that makes up the universal scheme?
DYING MAN - Anyone who simplifies matters, my friend, anyone, above all, who refrains from multiplying causes in order to confuse effects all the more. What need have you of a second difficulty when you are unable to resolve the first, and once it is possible that Nature may have all alone done what you attrubute to your god, why must you go looking for someone to be her overlord? The cause and explanation of what you do not understand may perhaps be the simplest thing in the world. Perfect your physics and you will understand Nature better, refine your reason, banish your prejudices and you'll have no further need of your god.
PRIEST - Wretched man! I took you for no worse than a Socinian - arms I had to combat you. But 'tis clear you are an athiest, and seeing that your heart is shut to the authentic and innumerable proofs we receive every day of our lives of the Creator's existence - I have no more to say to you. There is no restoring the blind to the light.
DYING MAN - Softly, my friend, own that between the two, he who blindfolds himself must surely see less of the light than he who snatches the blindfold away from his eyes. You compose, you construct, you dream, you magnify and complicate; I sift, I simplify. You accumulate errors, pile one atop the other; I combat them all. Which one of us is blind?
PRIEST - Then you do not believe in God at all?
DYING MAN - No. And for one very sound reason: it is perfectly impossible to believe in what one does not understand. Between understanding and faith immediate connections must subsist; understanding is the very lifeblood of faith; where understanding has ceased, faith is dead; and when they who are in such a case proclaim they have faith, they deceive. You yourself, preacher, I defy you to believe in the god you predicate to me - you must fail because you cannot demonstrate him to me, because it is not in you to define him to me, because consequently you do not understand him - because as of the moment you do not understand him, you can no longer furnish me any reasonable argument concerning him, and because, in sum, anything beyond the limits and grasp of the human mind is either illusion or futility; and because your god having to be one or the other of the two, in the first instance I should be mad to believe in him, in the second a fool. My friend, prove to me that matter is inert and I will grant you a creator, prove to me that Nature does not suffice to herself and I'll let you imagine her ruled by a higher force; until then, expect nothing from me, I bow to evidence only, and evidence I perceive only through my senses: my belief goes no farther than they, beyond that point my faith collapses. I believe in the sun because I see it, I conceive it as the focal center of all the inflammable matter in Nature, its periodic movement pleases but does not amaze me. 'Tis a machanical operation, perhaps as simple as the workings of electricity, but which we are unable to understand. Need I bother more about it? when you have roofed everthing over with your god, will I be any the better off? and shall I still not have to make an effort at least as great to understand the artisan as to define his handiwork? By edifying your chimera it is thus no service you have rendered me, you have made me uneasy in my mind but you have not enlightened it, and instead of gratitude I owe you resentment. You god is a machine you fabricated in your passions' behalf, you manipulated it to their liking; but the day it interfered with mine, I kicked it out of my way, deem it fitting that I did so; and now, at this moment when I sink and my soul stands in need of calm and philosophy, belabor it not with your riddles and your cant, which alarm but will not convince it, which will irritate without improving it; good friends and on the best terms have we ever been, this soul and I, so Nature wished it to be; as it is, so she expressly modeled it, for my soul is the result of the dispositions she formed in me pursuant to her own ends and needs; and as she has an equal need of vices and virtues, whenever she was pleased to move me to evil, she did so, whenever she wanted a good deed from me, she roused in me the desire to perform one, and even so I did as I was bid. Look nowhere but to her workings for the unique cause of our fickle human behavior, and in her laws hope to find no other springs than her will and her requirements.
PRIEST - And so whatever is in this world, is necessary.
DYING MAN - Exactly.
PRIEST - But is everything is necessary - then the whole is regulated.
DYING MAN - I am not the one to deny it.
PRIEST - And what can regulate the whole save it be an all-powerful and all-knowing hand?
DYING MAN - Say, is it not necessary that gunpowder ignite when you set a spark to it?
PRIEST - Yes.
DYING MAN - And do you find any presence of wisdom in that?
PRIEST - None.
DYING MAN - It is then possible that things necessariliy come about without being determined by a superior intelligence, and possible hence that everything derive logically from a primary cause, without there being either reason or wisdom in that primary cause.
PRIEST - What are you aiming at?
DYING MAN - At proving to you that the world and all therein may be what it is and as you see it to be, without any wise and reasoning cause directing it, and that natural effects must have natural causes: natural causes sufficing, there is no need to invent any such unnatural ones as your god who himself, as I have told you already, would require to be explained and who would at the same time be the explanation of nothing; and that once 'tis plain your god is superfluous, he is perfectly useless; that what is useless would greatly appear to be imaginary only, null and therefore non-existent; thus, to conclude that your god is a fiction I need no other argument than that which furnishes me the certitude of his inutility.
PRIEST - At that rate there is no great need for me to talk to you about religion.
DYING MAN - True, but why not anyhow? Nothing so much amuses me as this sign of the extent to which human beings have been carried away by fanaticism and stupidity; although the prodigious spectacle of folly we are facing here may be horrible, it is always interesting. Answer me honestly, and endeavor to set personal considerations aside: were I weak enough to fall victim to your silly theories concerning the fabulous existence of the being who renders religion necessary, under what form would you advise me to worship him? Would you have me adopt the daydreams of Confucius rather than the absurdities of Brahma, should I kneel before the great snake to which the blacks pray, invoke the Peruvian's sun or Moses' Lord of Hosts, to which Mohammedan sect should I rally, or which Christian heresy would be preferable in your view? Be careful how you reply.
PRIEST - Can it be doubtful?
DYING MAN - Then 'tis egotistical.
PRIEST - No, my son, 'tis as much out of love for thee as for myself I urge thee to embrace my creed.
DYING MAN - And I wonder how the one or the other of us can have much love for himself, to deign to listen to such degrading nonsense.
PRIEST - But who can be mistaken about the miracles wrought by our Divine Redeemer?
DYING MAN - He who sees in him anything else than the most vulgar of all tricksters and the most arrent of all imposters.
PRIEST - O God, you hear him and your wrath thunders not forth!
DYING MAN - No my friend, all is peace and quiet around us, because your god, be it from impotence or from reason or from whatever you please, is a being whose existence I shall momentarily concede out of condescension for you or, if you prefer, in order to accommodate myself to your sorry little perspective; because this god, I say, were he to exist, as you are mad enough to believe, could not have selected as means to persuade us, anything more ridiculous than those your Jesus incarnates.
PRIEST - What! the prophecies, the miracles, the martyrs - are they not so many proofs?
DYING MAN - How, so long as I abide by the rules of logic, how would you have me accept as proof anything which itself is lacking proof? Before a prophecy could constitute proof I should first have to be completely certain it was ever pronounced; the prophecies history tells us of belong to history and for me they can only have the force of other historical facts, whereof three out of four are exceedingly dubious; if to this I add the strong probability that they have been transmitted to us by not very objective historians, who recorded what they preferred to have us read, I shall be quite within my rights if I am Skeptical. And furthermore, who is there to assure me that this prophecy was not made after the fact, that it was not a strategem of everyday political scheming, like that which predicts a happy reign under a just king, or frost in wintertime? As for your miracles, I am not any readier to be taken in by such rubbish. All rascals have performed them, all fools have believed in them; before I'd be persuaded of the truth of a miracle I would have to be very sure the event so called by you was absolutely contrary to the laws of Nature, for only what is outside of Nature can pass for miraculous; and who is so deeply learned in Nature that he can affirm the precise point where it is infringed upon? Only two things are needed to accredit an alleged miracle, a mountebank and a few simpletons; tush, there's the whole origin of your prodigies; all new adherents to a religious sect have wrought some; anf more extraordinary still, all have found imbeciles around to believe them. Your Jesus' feats do not surpass those of Apollonius of Tyana, yet nobody thinks to take the latter for a god; and when we come to your martyrs, assuredly, these are the feeblest of all your arguments. To produce martyrs you need but to have enthusiasm on the one hand, resistance on the other; and so long as an opposed cause offers me as many of them as does yours, I shall never be sufficiently authorized to believe one better than the other, but rather very much inclined to consider all of them pitiable. Ah my friend! were it true that the god you preach did exist, would he need miracle, martyr, or prophecy to secure recognition? anf if, as you declare, the human heart were of his making, would he not have chosen it for the repository of his law? Then would this law, impartial for all mankind because eminating from a just god, then would it be found graved deep and writ clear in all men alike, and from one end of the world to the other, all men, having this delicate and sensitive organ in common, would also resemble eachother through the homage they would render the god whence they had got it; all would adore and serve him in one identical manner, and they would be as incapable of disregarding this god as of resisting the inward impulse to worship him. Instead of that, what do I behold throughout this world? As many gods as there are countries; as many different cults as there are different minds or different imaginations; and this swarm of opinions among which it physically impossible for me to choose, say now, is this a just god's doing? Fie upon you, preacher, you outrage your god when you present him to me thus; rather let me deny him completely, for if he exists then I outrage him far less by my incredulity than do you through your blasphemies. Return to your senses, preacher, your Jesus is no better than Mohammed, Mohammed no better than Moses, and the three of them combined no better than Confucius, who did after all have some wise things to say while the others did naught but rave; in general, though, such people are all mere frauds: philosophers laughed at them, the mob believed them, and justice ought to have hanged them.
PRIEST - Alas, justice dealt only too harshly with one of the four.
DYING MAN - If he alone got what he deserved it was he who deserved it most richly; seditious, turbulent, calumniating, dishonest, libertine, a clumsy buffoon, and very mischievous; he had the art of overawing common folk and stirring up the rabble; and hencecame in line for punishment in a kingdom where the state of affairs was what it was in Jerusalem then. They were very wise indeed to get rid of him, and this perhaps is one case in which my extremely lenient and also extremely tolerant maxims are able to allow the severity of Themis; I excuse any misbehavior save that which may endanger the government one lives under, kings and their majesties are the only thing I respect; and whoever does not love his country and his king were better dead than alive.
PRIEST - But you do surely believe something awaits us after this life, you must at some time or another have sought to pierce the dark shadows enshrouding our mortal fate, and what other theory could have satisfied your anxious spirit, than that of the numberless woes that betide him who has lived wickedly, and an eternity of rewards for him whose life has been good?
DYING MAN - What other, my friend? that of nothingness, it has never held terrors for me, in it I see naught but what is consoling and unpretentious; all other theories are of pride's composition, this one alone is of reason's. Moreover, 'tis neither dreadful nor absolute, this nothingness. Before my eyes have I not the example of Nature's perpetual generations and regenerations? Nothing perishes in the world, my friend, nothing is lost; man today, worm tomorrow, the day after tomorrow a fly; is it not to keep steadily on existing? And what entitles me to be rewarded for virtues which are in me through no fault of my own, or again punished for crimes wherefore the ultimate responsibility is not mine? how are you to put your alleged god's goodness into tune with this system, and can he have wished to create me in order to reap pleasure from punishing me, and that solely on account of a choice he does not leave me free will to determine?
PRIEST - You are free.
DYING MAN - Yes, in terms of your prejudices; but reason puts them to rout, and the theory of human freedom was never devised except to fabricate that of grace, which was to aquire such importance in your reveries. What man on earth, seeing the scaffold a step beyond the crime, would commit it were he free not to commit it? We are the pawns of an irresistable force, and never for an instant is it within our power to do anything but make the best of our lot and forge ahead along the path that has been traced for us. There is not a single virtue which is not necessary to Nature and conversely not a single crime which she does not need and it is in the perfect balance she maintains between the one and the other that her immense science consists; but can we be guilty for adding our weight to this side or that when it is she who tosses us onto the scales? no more so than the hornet who thrusts his dart into your skin.
PRIEST - Then we should not shrink from the worst of all crimes.
DYING MAN - I say nothing of the kind. Let the evil deed be proscribed by law, let justice smite the criminal, that will be deterrent enough; but if by misfortune we do commit it even so, let's not cry over spilled milk; remorse is inefficacious, since it does not stay us from crime, futile since it does not repair it, therefore it is absurd to beat one's breast, more absurd still to dread being punished in another world if we have been lucky to escape it in this. God forbid that this be construed as encouragement to crime, no, we should avoid it as much as we can, but one must learn to shun it through reason and not through false fears which lead to naught and whose effects are so quickly overcome in any moderately steadfast soul. Reason, sir - yes, our reason alone should warn us that harm done our fellows can never bring happiness to us; and our heart, that contributing to their felicity is the greatest joy Nature has accorded us on earth; the entirety of human morals is contained in this one phrase: Render others as happy as one desires oneself to be, and never inflict more pain upon them than one would like to receive at their hands. There you are, my friend, those are the only principles we should observe, and you need neither god nor religion to appreciate and subscribe to them, you need only have a good heart. But I feel my strength ebbing away; preacher, put away your prejudices, unbend, be a man, be human, without fear and without hope forget your gods and your religions too: they are none of them good for anything but to set man at odds with man, and the mere name of these horrors has caused greater loss of life on earth than all other wars and all other plagues combined. Renounce the idea of another world; there is none, but do not renounce the pleasure of being happy and of making for happiness in this. Nature offers you no other way of doubling your existence, of extending it. - My friend, lewd pleasures were ever dearer to me than anything else, I have idolized tham all my life and my wish has been to end it in their bosom; my end draws near, six women lovelier than the light of day are waiting in the chamber adjoining, I have reserved them for this moment, partake of the feast with me, following my example embrace them instead of the vain sophistries of superstition, under their caresses strive for a little while to forget your hypocritical beliefs.
NOTE
The dying man rang, the women entered; and after he had been a little while in their arms the preacher became one whom Nature had corrupted, all because he had not succeeded in explaining what a corrupt nature is.
the above entry is my choice if i retain lucid consiousness and some adequate bodily control.
However,we should not kid ourselves, unless we actually select the timing and method of our exit
usually, familiarly and statistically:
-you die sudden, or near sudden (3-5min)
auto program of near death experience biochemistry lives your life in apocalypse speed while your consiousness fails -if you are lucky (with the extra minutes)
death or succumbing while sleeping does not count
-you die in hours
basically you have the time to calm down from the acknowledgment waterfall
then most probably you do not retain adequate bodily control to engage in something more arty
so, I would enjoy people who loved and enjoyed me around, hoping to live a little longer with their brains until my memory and particular biochemical set up is diluted into the undetermined free sea of existence
we last if we try very hard up to 4-5 generations
although writen thoughts can last as long as there is someone to read them, our particular personality smell, at its most elaborate does not exceed 5 -6 generations life span
-you die in days, weeks or months
well,you are not dying yet as far as the animal in you feels.
If I were dying right now, I'd like to die alone. I don't know how I'll feel about it in the future, but in the past I would have preferred a few specific people around.