nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/10/10371870-obama-to-address-contraceptive-policy
QuoteAccording to The Associated
Press, women will still get
guaranteed access to birth
control without co-pays or
premiums no matter where they
work, a provision of Obama's
health care law that he insisted
must remain.
But religious universities and
hospitals that see contraception
as an unconscionable violation
of their faith can refuse to cover
it, and insurance companies will
then have to step in to do ...
Fucking Catholics..
So that got resolved?
I had a friend on Facebook flipping out about this - Posting articles left and right, posting pictures about how Obama is so against freedom of religion, and even quoting the first amendment.
It's funny, because I seriously doubt that same friend could care any less when laws come into place that are violating the Establishment clause.
Welp, at least he is making birth control accessible for ALL who need it.
Fuck the catholics and their idiotic policies against b.c.
No one should ever tell a woman she cant protect herself during sexual intercourse.
I don't know how Catholic EDIT hospitals are funded. I will have to do some research. If they are even partially funded by tax payer money, I would think it would be a violation of the first amendment for them to be able to refuse to give women birth control on religious grounds. I like to assume that any publically funded organization has to follow the same laws as everyone else regardless of religious preference. If they are privately funded then I don't really care what they do, but I do hope that women in those areas have access to other medical institutions that don't practice a form of "religious" medicine.
Yeah,please get back to me on that, Ali. Unfortunately the pope and vatican has a lot of power and influence. Argh... Catholic churches have been in top power for too long.
I may be wrong but I don't think this is so much about the hospitals refusing women birth control, as in patients, but it's about the inclusion of contraception in the employee's benefits plan. My understanding is if they accept federal funding, they are a catholic institution by name only. Only if the religious institution serves and employs only those of the *named* religion and accepts no federal money can they claim religious rights.
At least that's what I think is right. If someone knows better I will gladly eat crow.
On a side note, I wonder if now that the conraception issue is settled if the GOP who fought so hard for it will join the catholic's opposition to the death penalty? Hmmm, probably not.
If they are federally funded, then they must be held to the same criteria as secular institutions. No two ways about it, IMO. However, I understand Obama's position . . . sometimes we must concede and then approach the issue in a different way, but to the same outcome. I don't understand how this is a violation of freedom of religion - no one is forcing the women that work at these places to take up the offer.
Yes, Catholic hospitals and universities do receive federal funding. Thing is, of course Fox News has found a way to argue against the compromise, saying that insurance companies won't give something for free, so they'll simply raise prices on the Catholic employers or increase copays on those getting birth control, therefore the chance that some people completely against birth control by principle will have to end up paying for it. The Catholic Church is against all birth control because that is preventing God's will. They especially don't like the pill because it's an abortificant, meaning that if the egg does get fertilized, the pill causes it to not stick to the uterus, and basically get aborted.
On the O'Reilly Factor tonight, a FEMALE Episcopalian minister used facts and intelligence to pwn Laura Ingraham on this issue. I thought it was great. I was rooting for the preacher in that one.
What amazes me is that even the women in the conservative movement are so anti-woman. I deal with that at work sometimes, because women are such a minority in the US military. I have to remind guys at work that a woman can lift just as much weight as they can when we're moving around heavy items: 6,000 lbs, because they can drive the same forklifts. Also, the women are invaluable in our shops because they often add a different perspective on things that help us to solve problems that we would take longer solving without them.
EDIT: Two forms of federal funding to Catholic hospitals and universities... Medicare and Pell grants, respectively. There are many other forms of Federal funding for such institutions in the forms of grants for research and equipment. If you do a web search of federal funding and Catholic hospitals and institutions, you can find a lot of current articles talking about the current situation with birth control and other issues regarding the idea that these institutions could respond by refusing Federal funding. I would imagine to refuse this funding may cause these institutions many hardships.
Why would birth control be against god's will?
Because sex isn't suppose to feel good. In that case, I guess foreplay and oral sex is against god too. I'll do it lots more then. :D
Quote from: hismikeness on February 10, 2012, 11:46:32 PM
I may be wrong but I don't think this is so much about the hospitals refusing women birth control, as in patients, but it's about the inclusion of contraception in the employee's benefits plan. My understanding is if they accept federal funding, they are a catholic institution by name only. Only if the religious institution serves and employs only those of the *named* religion and accepts no federal money can they claim religious rights.
At least that's what I think is right. If someone knows better I will gladly eat crow.
On a side note, I wonder if now that the conraception issue is settled if the GOP who fought so hard for it will join the catholic's opposition to the death penalty? Hmmm, probably not.
Yes, this was about all private health insurance plans covering contraceptives without a co-pay, and the employees who work for hospitals and other organizations affiliated with the Catholic church, like hospitals or charities. All the compromise does is shift the cost of offering said contraceptives from the employer to the insurance company. It is a bit of a cop-out, but if it truly does continue to cover all women, then so be it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 11, 2012, 03:02:10 AM
Why would birth control be against god's will?
Because sex isn't suppose to feel good. In that case, I guess foreplay and oral sex is against god too. I'll do it lots more then. :D
I
think it all stems from the verse that says, "Be fruitful and multiply". God says to procreate, so to do anything to prevent that is wicked. Which you would think would also extend to abstinence. I mean really, if we're going to take that as literally as possible, we should all be shagging 24/7. Probably get a lot more converts, too.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 11, 2012, 04:39:45 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 11, 2012, 03:02:10 AM
Why would birth control be against god's will?
Because sex isn't suppose to feel good. In that case, I guess foreplay and oral sex is against god too. I'll do it lots more then. :D
I think it all stems from the verse that says, "Be fruitful and multiply". God says to procreate, so to do anything to prevent that is wicked. Which you would think would also extend to abstinence. I mean really, if we're going to take that as literally as possible, we should all be shagging 24/7. Probably get a lot more converts, too.
I don't know if the christian god is an idiot or the people who follow these insane rules, which are extremely outdated. :(
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 11, 2012, 04:39:45 AM
I think it all stems from the verse that says, "Be fruitful and multiply". God says to procreate, so to do anything to prevent that is wicked. Which you would think would also extend to abstinence. I mean really, if we're going to take that as literally as possible, we should all be shagging 24/7. Probably get a lot more converts, too.
The Catholics are under the impression that contraceptives cause unwanted pregnancy which leads to abortion which is a form of murder.
No contraceptive is 100% fool proof. So indeed people having recreational sex using contraceptives run the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Given the numbers of people on the planet this means that using contraceptives it is a given that there will be unwanted pregnancies.
The Catholic Church is only for abstinence unless a person is trying to have a baby.
However they are in denial that it is human nature (and non human animal nature) to have sex. They are in denial that sex education and contraceptives actually work to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies.
Surely the Catholics can see that sex with little boys is wrong because it cannot lead to conception. It doesn't seem to stop them, though.
Catholics are fucked up when it comes to fucking. That simple. 8)
Catholics know it's human nature to want to have sex. It's one of the gifts of God to married people, and it's one of the temptations of Satan to non-married people. Contraceptives do three things the Catholics don't like (according to Catholics, I sure as hell don't believe this shit).
1. Prevent fertilization of the egg. They believe that if we use condoms, for example, we keep God's will of future babies from happening. Therefore, they don't even want married people to use them. (They don't like it when I ask if we're powerful enough to keep God's will from happening, or if I mention that, since whatever happens is God's will, the invention and use of condoms must have been God's idea).
2. Contraceptives encourage unmarried sex. The Catholics believe that any unmarried sex is adultery. If you can have sex without as much fear of spreading disease and pregnancy, that takes away the incentive to wait until marriage.
3. Some contraceptives, such as the pill, are abortificants. The pill will keep a fertilized embryo (a baby in Catholic beliefs) from sticking to the uterine wall, causing the woman's body to abort that fertilized embryo. (They also don't like it when I mention all the times this actually happens with women who aren't taking birth control and are trying to have a baby. They say it's God's will if the embryo doesn't stick to the uterus naturally, and I say then God is committing abortion).
Monty Python says it best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8
Quote from: Radiant on February 10, 2012, 05:39:06 PM
So that got resolved?
I had a friend on Facebook flipping out about this - Posting articles left and right, posting pictures about how Obama is so against freedom of religion, and even quoting the first amendment.
It's funny, because I seriously doubt that same friend could care any less when laws come into place that are violating the Establishment clause.
The wife of a friend who has become a Catholic Deacon (but we like him anyway) was playing the "Help help I'm being opressed" card recently in regard to this. I was so friggin' disgusted with her I had to leave the room before my head exploded.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poetryring.com%2Fra%2F427573_10100257889559104_5301629_46210671_893707885_n.jpg&hash=161d94d3e1fc5853a66b75c78df6403c080b2045)
LOL Davin!! That makes me wanna rewatch the princess bride.
Paragraphs 2367-2371 in the Catholic Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm explain the Catholic position on birth control as being intrinsically evil.
The relevant bit of it, from Par 2370:
QuoteThus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.
So, their argument is that contraception is evil because not only does it render someone 'not open to life', but it apparently eliminates the possibility of a husband and wife fully giving of themselves to one another. To me, that's honestly absurd. Spouses and partners give completely of themselves in dozens of different ways throughout the day. Who's to say that the most complete way someone can give to someone else is to either get them pregnant, or get pregnant? You'd think the most complete way two adults in a relationship could give to one another would be to express love, responsibility, and due diligence for one another and for their health and well-being. Sometimes it's not prudent, or safe, to have a child.
Go figure.
I've never bought any of the potential human life arguments, either. One egg... millions of sperm. I guess god designed us so that there would be millions of potential human lives not finding their other half.
Quote from: fester30 on February 15, 2012, 01:08:01 PM
I've never bought any of the potential human life arguments, either. One egg... millions of sperm. I guess god designed us so that there would be millions of potential human lives not finding their other half.
Kind of like how only a husband and wife are supposed to have sex, yet millions of people either never find a spouse/are very unhappily married/can't safely have partnered sex (and yet it's supposedly sinful to 'take care of it yourself'), or aren't attracted to the opposite gender (and of course very, very sinful to do anything with anyone of the same sex). ::)
Interesting 'design' work, on both the procreative and the human relations front...
Not "fucking catholics", but the fucking catholic church. The arrogance and hypocracy of the organization is ridiculous. Someone has to have the balls to show them they cannot live by their own laws. We all know how things worked out when they made the laws.
Quote from: Reprobate on February 15, 2012, 08:24:57 PM
Not "fucking catholics", but the fucking catholic church. The arrogance and hypocracy of the organization is ridiculous. Someone has to have the balls to show them they cannot live by their own laws. We all know how things worked out when they made the laws.
Agreed. The Vatican is a vile organization (basing this opinion on their practices, not just a general anti-religious statement). Catholics may be decent folks or not, depends on the person and whether they truly believe their leader (le Pope) has a direct line to God.
What's interesting is that a majority of Catholics in the US support having insurance cover contraception, and 98-99% of them use it. So the Vatican doesn't even hold the same position as its own parishioners. It's all further evidence that organized religion is completely fucked up as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: fester30 on February 15, 2012, 01:08:01 PM
I've never bought any of the potential human life arguments, either. One egg... millions of sperm. I guess god designed us so that there would be millions of potential human lives not finding their other half.
I'm glad someone brought this up.
Then there is the irony that all of the Catholic Church's leadership is supposed to be celibate, yet they feel they're still somehow qualified to tell us what we should do with our bathroom parts.
Quote from: fester30 on February 24, 2012, 05:38:50 PM
Then there is the irony that all of the Catholic Church's leadership is supposed to be celibate, yet they feel they're still somehow qualified to tell us what we should do with our bathroom parts.
Yep! Bloody stupidity at it finest!
Quote from: Tank on February 24, 2012, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: fester30 on February 24, 2012, 05:38:50 PM
Then there is the irony that all of the Catholic Church's leadership is supposed to be celibate, yet they feel they're still somehow qualified to tell us what we should do with our bathroom parts.
Yep! Bloody stupidity at it finest!
Yep. If I were religious (ex-Catholic here, sigh), I'd at least give more credence to what the Eastern Orthodox or Anglican priests, bishops etc said on this particular subject, seeing as they don't have to be celibate and have at least a better understanding of this issue than any of the Catholic clergy possibly could, just by default of having had physical relationships. (Not that the Catholic clergy haven't had those. They just don't talk about them, hence the many scandals coming out now.)
Quote from: fester30 on February 24, 2012, 05:38:50 PM
Then there is the irony that all of the Catholic Church's leadership is supposed to be celibate, yet they feel they're still somehow qualified to tell us what we should do with our bathroom parts.
Lol bathroom parts. That is gonna stick in my vocab. <3
Quote from: Stevil on February 11, 2012, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 11, 2012, 04:39:45 AM
I think it all stems from the verse that says, "Be fruitful and multiply". God says to procreate, so to do anything to prevent that is wicked. Which you would think would also extend to abstinence. I mean really, if we're going to take that as literally as possible, we should all be shagging 24/7. Probably get a lot more converts, too.
The Catholics are under the impression that contraceptives cause unwanted pregnancy which leads to abortion which is a form of murder.
No contraceptive is 100% fool proof. So indeed people having recreational sex using contraceptives run the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Given the numbers of people on the planet this means that using contraceptives it is a given that there will be unwanted pregnancies.
The Catholic Church is only for abstinence unless a person is trying to have a baby.
However they are in denial that it is human nature (and non human animal nature) to have sex. They are in denial that sex education and contraceptives actually work to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies.
You've been at phatmass long enough to know that that's not the reason that Catholics oppose birth control and that the Church allows (with justifications I find frankly incoherent) Natural Family Planning.
Birth Control is important. I think there is a strong moral (giving women autonomy over their bodies) as well as practical (the importance of BC in helping to fight poverty). But I don't think there is a simple case here. I agree with the government legally. I don't think that the policy crosses or crossed any legal lines. But I think we should question the wisdom of it. Catholic hospitals are doing the society by being in existence, not the other way around. Their existence saves us a lot of money and they have a positive impact on society. You can find Catholic sexual ethics severely lacking, as I do, but I feel like too many secular people are acting like we are doing the Church a favor by letting them run hospitals. We really aren't. They are doing us (society) a favor by running them. I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise.
Quote from: Will37 on February 28, 2012, 07:30:05 AM
You've been at phatmass long enough to know that that's not the reason that Catholics oppose birth control and that the Church allows (with justifications I find frankly incoherent) Natural Family Planning.
I have stated what people at Phatmass tell me. They go for abstinence only unless trying to make a baby, well, at least that is what they outwardly tell everyone. They keep arguing to me how contraceptives lead to abortion. I am honestly telling you what I have learned. But maybe I am wrong, I am certainly not trying to mislead.
QuoteWill37
They are doing us (society) a favor by running them. I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise.
Catholic hospitals may be privately owned but they are government funded. A conscious clause was enacted back in '73 that ruled religious organizations didnt have to do anything that stepped on moral or religious beliefs. But WELL over half of tax payers here in the US use birth control of some kind regardless of their religion. So here is a government funded service that refuses to provide legal service to the public. I say cut the funding and replace them with secular hospitals with the same intentions the Catholics had. I dont know what you would call that....
Its the Catholic churches refusal to compromise that got this topic all the attention. When Obama stated that the insurance companies would pick up the bill for employees (who might not even be Catholic) who want birth control they still shot it down.
I see all that as a good thing though. How much longer can the church sit on its high horse or soap box and tell everyone how to live thier lives and what their sex lives should consist of. All the while running government funded facilities that deny basic modern needs. Modern needs that even most Catholics use.
I know Im late on this thread, just wanted to toss my $0.02 in.
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on March 08, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
Michele Bachmann is now spouting off bullshit about how this mandate will eventually lead to limits on how many children a person can have.
So beware of that, folks. It's the obvious next step.
Pft, if it were up to me, you would have to take and pass a test to have children. And I know way to many people who would fail.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 08, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on March 08, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
Michele Bachmann is now spouting off bullshit about how this mandate will eventually lead to limits on how many children a person can have.
So beware of that, folks. It's the obvious next step.
Pft, if it were up to me, you would have to take and pass a test to have children. And I know way to many people who would fail.
Many couples who have children wouldn't be allowed to adopt them under UK rules due to age, income or some other factor. If humans have any right at all it's to reproduce. After all that is the only 'reason' we are here.
Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2012, 08:12:09 PMIf humans have any right at all it's to reproduce. After all that is the only 'reason' we are here.
It seems likely those sentences will revive your question as to language's efficacy for discussing the deep questions.
It's going to be tricky agreeing on a definition of right and reason.
If humans have any right at all it is to act on their environment to ensure their survival. After all that is the only "reason" we are here.
A lion will kill the cubs of its predecessor when it takes over a pride and will kill any interlopers touching his females. I wouldn't call that a right, it's just what they do. If it is evident that uncontrolled human reproduction threatens civilisation, I'd say people have a right to act to prevent it, if as you say "humans have any right at all."
Quote from: G-Roll on March 08, 2012, 01:29:58 PM
QuoteWill37
They are doing us (society) a favor by running them. I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise.
Catholic hospitals may be privately owned but they are government funded. A conscious clause was enacted back in '73 that ruled religious organizations didnt have to do anything that stepped on moral or religious beliefs. But WELL over half of tax payers here in the US use birth control of some kind regardless of their religion. So here is a government funded service that refuses to provide legal service to the public. I say cut the funding and replace them with secular hospitals with the same intentions the Catholics had. I dont know what you would call that....
Its the Catholic churches refusal to compromise that got this topic all the attention. When Obama stated that the insurance companies would pick up the bill for employees (who might not even be Catholic) who want birth control they still shot it down.
I see all that as a good thing though. How much longer can the church sit on its high horse or soap box and tell everyone how to live thier lives and what their sex lives should consist of. All the while running government funded facilities that deny basic modern needs. Modern needs that even most Catholics use.
I know Im late on this thread, just wanted to toss my $0.02 in.
I appreciate it. Honestly.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 15, 2012, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Reprobate on February 15, 2012, 08:24:57 PM
Not "fucking catholics", but the fucking catholic church. The arrogance and hypocracy of the organization is ridiculous. Someone has to have the balls to show them they cannot live by their own laws. We all know how things worked out when they made the laws.
Agreed. The Vatican is a vile organization (basing this opinion on their practices, not just a general anti-religious statement). Catholics may be decent folks or not, depends on the person and whether they truly believe their leader (le Pope) has a direct line to God.
This^
Catholics have their value...they might change that vile institution yet. ::)