French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
QuoteA French court has slapped a fraud sentence on the Church of Scientology, saying it targets vulnerable people for commercial gain. The ruling is a major setback for Scientologists in France, and it marks the first time here that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.
The development puts its famous recruitment methods under a spotlight.
Scientologists vehemently reject the conviction, saying that they are the victims of anti-cult organizations trying to destroy them. "Respect my religion," chanted several dozen Scientologists, braving sub-zero temperatures in the front of a courthouse in Paris...
Excellent news!
We knew it was bulls¤¤t, and now we have the paperwork to prove it! :D
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 04, 2012, 01:58:42 PM
We knew it was bulls¤¤t, and now we have the paperwork to prove it! :D
Yes. And with a bit of luck this will start a domino effect in other countries.
The Asmo, he wants to send Ze French his favourite seal:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fallthingsordinary.se%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F569__seal-of-approval.jpg%3F1256695294&hash=9c7cbe52308fc7236e085ff8273b470449589966)
The Scientologists have a point. Why single them out, when a great many religious groups are guilty of the same behavior (targeting vulnerable people for commercial gain)? The bogus personality tests which show that the mark is in need of help (conveniently available through Scientology) are merely an update of the Christian "born in sin, in need of redemption through Christ Jesus; all are sinners in need of the church's help to get right with God" scam.
So cute, Asmo!!
As much as I cant stand scienctology, why should it be the only bogus cult called out? Last time I checked, christianity and islam has done more damaged to millions of innocents....
I just wish all religions would go away.
I'm kind of with Recusant on this one. I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Scientology other than the crazy stuff you hear about alien spirits and galactic battles, but I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
Gotta start somewhere :)
That's true - setting precedence....
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
I'm kind of with Recusant on this one. I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Scientology other than the crazy stuff you hear about alien spirits and galactic battles, but I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
How about the fact that the "space religion" was started by a failed science fiction author?
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 04, 2012, 04:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
I'm kind of with Recusant on this one. I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Scientology other than the crazy stuff you hear about alien spirits and galactic battles, but I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
How about the fact that the "space religion" was started by a failed science fiction author?
Yeah, that's weird. But really, does that make it any less respectable than a religion founded unknown peoples belonging to primitive tribe during the Bronze Age? It's
all stupid. Why is Scientology any
more stupid?
I find it hard to believe Scientology is a scam but not Catholic belief. >__>;;;
It is funny because Scientology is the one religion that is so messed up, even mainstream religions think they are silly.
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
I'm kind of with Recusant on this one. I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Scientology other than the crazy stuff you hear about alien spirits and galactic battles, but I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
Maybe the French government had an easier time going after Scientology b/c (based on the info in the article) Scientology is actually selling various products (tests, vitamins, treatments) that they claim will have X effect. It's got to be fairly easy for the government to prove that the products don't work as the CoScientology said they would.
W/ most other religions, the church is not purporting to offer a tangible benefit for the money believers give.
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
What is the difference between a religion and a scam?
Quote from: Anne D. on February 04, 2012, 05:45:22 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
I'm kind of with Recusant on this one. I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Scientology other than the crazy stuff you hear about alien spirits and galactic battles, but I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
Maybe the French government had an easier time going after Scientology b/c (based on the info in the article) Scientology is actually selling various products (tests, vitamins, treatments) that they claim will have X effect. It's got to be fairly easy for the government to prove that the products don't work as the CoScientology said they would.
W/ most other religions, the church is not purporting to offer a tangible benefit for the money believers give.
Good point. I didn't realize that the Church of Scientology sells tangible products that can be objectively evaluated.
Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
What is the difference between a religion and a scam?
History.
Quote from: Asmodean on February 04, 2012, 02:41:04 PM
The Asmo, he wants to send Ze French his favourite seal:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fallthingsordinary.se%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F569__seal-of-approval.jpg%3F1256695294&hash=9c7cbe52308fc7236e085ff8273b470449589966)
Yes, the French seal is very pleased.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi412.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp202%2Fbudhorse4%2F569__seal-of-approval.jpg&hash=f1667fb693f64998d4a2484519020932cb32d7f7)
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion
About bleedin time.... ;D
Not much, probably that's what took so long to figure out ;D
Quote from: Stevil on February 04, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
What is the difference between a religion and a scam?
To add a bit more detail:
QuoteOn Thursday, an appeals court in Paris upheld a conviction against the Scientology organization for organized fraud, assessing a $530,000 fine to the Scientology Celebrity Centre in Paris and a $265,000 fine to its bookstore. Several leading French Scientologists, including the group's head in Paris, Alain Rosenberg, were given suspended sentences of up to two years in prison.
This is an appeals court ... so pretty much the end of the line, unless they can take it to the supreme court somehow, but since the verdict is for "organized fraud" as the newspaper reports it, http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2 (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
i don't see that as a likely course of events.
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 01:41:16 PM
French Court Says Scientology Is A Scam, Not A Religion (http://www.businessinsider.com/french-court-says-scientology-is-a-scam-not-a-religion-2012-2)
QuoteA French court has slapped a fraud sentence on the Church of Scientology, saying it targets vulnerable people for commercial gain. The ruling is a major setback for Scientologists in France, and it marks the first time here that the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organized fraud.
The development puts its famous recruitment methods under a spotlight.
Scientologists vehemently reject the conviction, saying that they are the victims of anti-cult organizations trying to destroy them. "Respect my religion," chanted several dozen Scientologists, braving sub-zero temperatures in the front of a courthouse in Paris...
Excellent news!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 05, 2012, 03:06:30 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 04, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 04, 2012, 07:46:24 PM
History.
Also, blood.
History of what exactly?
History as in tradition, culture, familiarity etc. Religion has a 'get out of jail free card' in the same way that alcohol and tobacco do. They (and religion) have been doing damage for so long we have simply got used to them.
Does anyone know if churches/religious outfits have any accountability with regards to what they do with tithings?
Even in places where tithing is tax free?
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
...I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
A few hundred years. Seriously. We are still close enough to the creation of scientology that we can see what utter bullcrap it is. A science fiction writer says the best way to get rich is to invent a religion. Then he invents a religion. And as if that isn't obvious enough, he puts the word "science" in the name. Hello? Who here could believe such utter nonsense as anything but a joke? A few years go by and gullible people are buying into it. If they aren't called out as a cult now, imagine how much momentum they'll have in a few hundred years. Or a couple of thousand years. People have very, very short memories. It scares the crap out of me sometimes.
Quote from: Stevil on February 05, 2012, 07:15:01 PM
Does anyone know if churches/religious outfits have any accountability with regards to what they do with tithings?
Even in places where tithing is tax free?
In the US there is absolutely no accountability for what they do with their income...they don't even have to file like a real 501c3 nonprofit.
Basically the only thing they can't do is use money in a way that can be traced to supporting a politician, legislation, or political party. Yet they get away with that too even when it is obvious.
Quote from: Traveler on February 05, 2012, 08:23:54 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 04, 2012, 03:26:19 PM
...I don't really understand what makes Scientology any more of a scam than any other religion.
A few hundred years. Seriously. We are still close enough to the creation of scientology that we can see what utter bullcrap it is. A science fiction writer says the best way to get rich is to invent a religion. Then he invents a religion. And as if that isn't obvious enough, he puts the word "science" in the name. Hello? Who here could believe such utter nonsense as anything but a joke? A few years go by and gullible people are buying into it. If they aren't called out as a cult now, imagine how much momentum they'll have in a few hundred years. Or a couple of thousand years. People have very, very short memories. It scares the crap out of me sometimes.
Yup, that's exactly right. It's all about how long it's been around, and how many people base their own self-worth around said scam. Now it's only a few thousand, but as the numbers go up and some of those people gain political power...well, you know.
Scientology is especially brutal in how much it strives to isolate its members and force them to disown people who don't buy into their crap, and it has cost people their lives too when they refuse to seek out medical treatment for members due to their wacky beliefs. They also try to "charge" people who leave the church because they supposedly "invested" in them, so they present a bill of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
This (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/14/110214fa_fact_wright) was one of the best articles I read about them
Quote from: Whitney on February 05, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 05, 2012, 07:15:01 PM
Does anyone know if churches/religious outfits have any accountability with regards to what they do with tithings?
Even in places where tithing is tax free?
In the US there is absolutely no accountability for what they do with their income...they don't even have to file like a real 501c3 nonprofit.
Basically the only thing they can't do is use money in a way that can be traced to supporting a politician, legislation, or political party. Yet they get away with that too even when it is obvious.
Ugh, and this is legal and everyone is okay with it? :(
There is one thing to be said about not taxing religious organisations. If they were they could reasonably demand representation in the governing process. What was it "No taxation without reprisentation." one cornerstone of America I would think?
Quote from: Tank on February 06, 2012, 05:03:56 PM
There is one thing to be said about not taxing religious organisations. If they were they could reasonably demand representation in the governing process. What was it "No taxation without reprisentation." one cornerstone of America I would think?
They already have representation in the governing process. Look how many politicians in the US wear their religion on their sleeve. Taxing them would not change anything.
Quote from: Firebird on February 06, 2012, 06:11:34 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 06, 2012, 05:03:56 PM
There is one thing to be said about not taxing religious organisations. If they were they could reasonably demand representation in the governing process. What was it "No taxation without reprisentation." one cornerstone of America I would think?
They already have representation in the governing process. Look how many politicians in the US wear their religion on their sleeve. Taxing them would not change anything.
That is true. However politicians in the US are mostly overt Christians because it's politically expedient to be so. It is currently illegle for a church to support a candidate to represent it's interests is it not? Could/would this situation change if they were taxed?
Quote from: Whitney on February 05, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 05, 2012, 07:15:01 PM
Does anyone know if churches/religious outfits have any accountability with regards to what they do with tithings?
Even in places where tithing is tax free?
In the US there is absolutely no accountability for what they do with their income...they don't even have to file like a real 501c3 nonprofit.
Basically the only thing they can't do is use money in a way that can be traced to supporting a politician, legislation, or political party. Yet they get away with that too even when it is obvious.
If they employ people they do have to report such payments to the IRS and withhold money for income tax, like other employers. But Whitney is correct - they don't have to pay taxes on their income. They could lose their exempt status if they get too involved in politics, but this is probably rare.
This isn't the first time France has gone after a "religion" or elements of it-it wasn't so long ago that there was an uproar over the banning of head coverings, especially hijabs, burqas, and other traditionally Muslim garb. I was kind of on the fence with that one, because it's debatable whether or not those things are explicitly required by the Qu'ran or just a construct of societies that have traditionally treated women as chattel. Islam, though I don't agree with it, is at least a real religion, and I do think it's important to protect religious freedom for everyone. Scientology, as already pointed out, is as much a work of fiction as the Cthulhu Mythos are. Treating it like a religion when the founder even said it was bullshit is just stupid. So bully to the French, I guess. I think I need to live there, with their secularism and socialized medicine and excellent food. :-P
I love cafes and coffee, so I think i'll get along just fine in France. :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 06, 2012, 08:05:43 PM
I love cafes and coffee, so I think i'll get along just fine in France. :)
What is your opinion of body odour?
Quote from: Tank on February 06, 2012, 08:11:19 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 06, 2012, 08:05:43 PM
I love cafes and coffee, so I think i'll get along just fine in France. :)
What is your opinion of body odour?
Oi. I resemble that comment...!
In fairness to France, it seemed like nobody bathed all that often when I stayed in Germany. Although the Germans did make fun of the Americans for showering daily because they said it was a waste of water.
Quote from: Tank on February 06, 2012, 08:11:19 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 06, 2012, 08:05:43 PM
I love cafes and coffee, so I think i'll get along just fine in France. :)
What is your opinion of body odour?
As long as its not within closed proximities.
Also, I know a few french people. A gorgeous blonde guy and girl who always smell nice.
I've faired my share of disusting fat, smelly americas every season. :(
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 06, 2012, 06:32:53 PM
Quote from: Whitney on February 05, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 05, 2012, 07:15:01 PM
Does anyone know if churches/religious outfits have any accountability with regards to what they do with tithings?
Even in places where tithing is tax free?
In the US there is absolutely no accountability for what they do with their income...they don't even have to file like a real 501c3 nonprofit.
Basically the only thing they can't do is use money in a way that can be traced to supporting a politician, legislation, or political party. Yet they get away with that too even when it is obvious.
If they employ people they do have to report such payments to the IRS and withhold money for income tax, like other employers. But Whitney is correct - they don't have to pay taxes on their income. They could lose their exempt status if they get too involved in politics, but this is probably rare.
Yeah, unfortunately it's true that that's rare. There've been a few cases of priests telling their flock who to vote for directly from the podium, but the IRS has not gone after them, at least not yet. Probably too scared
I strongly dislike Scientology. However, I'm even more leery of any government having a say in what does or does not constitute a 'real" religion.
Clearly the headline of the article was designed by a theist to give the impression that religions and scams are mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Ivan Tudor C McHock on February 25, 2012, 02:00:12 AM
Clearly the headline of the article was designed by a theist to give the impression that religions and scams are mutually exclusive.
Not necessarily. However (and I admit to some bias), I don't see how it's up to a government to decide which religion is real, if any.
Governments justifiably get involved with businesses which commit false advertising. Why should religion be exempt?
Quote from: Ivan Tudor C McHock on February 25, 2012, 02:26:24 AM
Governments justifiably get involved with businesses which commit false advertising. Why should religion be exempt?
History says that when religion and government get intertwined, neither escapes without harm.
Quote from: statichaos on February 25, 2012, 02:58:55 AM
Quote from: Ivan Tudor C McHock on February 25, 2012, 02:26:24 AM
Governments justifiably get involved with businesses which commit false advertising. Why should religion be exempt?
History says that when religion and government get intertwined, neither escapes without harm.
And that is exactly why government should not be giving religion a special exemption when it comes to false advertising. They should be treated the same as any other business. And that, of course, includes paying tax.