I've been in the 'What God?' camp for awhile, but due to my strict Pentecostal upbringing, this stage of my life has largely been one of resignation and depression over my absence of belief. In other words, for a long time I wished I could return to the comfort of Christianity . . . a feat made impossible by reason. The fear of death became (and still is, from time to time) a recurring discomfort, even cause of panic and anxiety. I have no wish for my existence to cease, with no reassurance of everlasting peace and joy once the nasty process of dying was complete. More recently, I began seeking out the work of Christopher Hitchens (via Stephen Fry), and of course Richard Dawkins. The fear of looking too deeply into the implications of atheism is no longer a factor. More than revealing trains of thought that may never have occurred to me naturally, what became obvious was that the desire for the Christian God was nonsense; the implications of what it would mean for the desire to be fulfilled were far more horrifying than the revealed truth as proposed by scientific theory.
In a nutshell, that is the evolution of my thought. And in order to continue exploring the world from a humanistic point of view, and to further develop opinions about it, here I am. This is the first atheism forum I've joined, and I hope to find the experience an interesting, enlightening, and amusing one.
(And if that was entirely too wordy, I do apologize and willingly submit to a smack upside the head)
-Kate
In order to avoid trying to come up with 10 posts about anything just to get access to the other sections, I hope it's ok if I can ask for advice in this same thread, and then perhaps a mod can divide the thread later on (if that's no trouble).
Part of why I joined is to seek advice on the issue of maintaining good relationships with devout Christian family and friends. Due to unfortunate life circumstances, I am moving back in with my parents for a little while for the first time since I was 19 (I am 24). I have had much conflict with them over the years because of the choices I have made and who I am. Think of a controversial topic for any conservative evangelical, and it has probably been hashed over between us: My "lack of faith", bisexuality, liberal opinions, belief in scientific explanations for the creation of the universe and development of life, etc. I do try to be respectful of their traditions in the same way I would be respectful of tribal customs - with politeness, quiet observation, and non-commital commentary (i.e. Oh, isn't that interesting). If I could peacefully co-exist with them using this method, I would. The level of devotion to their belief system is so great that reason is useless and discussion of anything contradictory to their belief is potentially inflammatory.
For example, the other day I was discussing a documentary I watched on the evolution of language (Planet Word, highly recommended) with my mother. Not only did I feel compelled to skip over the literal evolution of language, but when I talked about the development of many languages as being like a tree with Proto-Indo-European as a trunk, she immediately pointed to that as evidence of the Babel myth - you know, the one where God curses everyone with a different language for being too damn progressive. I love talking about language, science, anything that sparks my interest and delight in the natural world, and it's aggravating to have to switch my internal religious censor on 'high' to avoid conflict and ultimately make the conversation that much more dull. What is the approach? How can you foster a good relationship with someone of this mindset?
Hello and welcome to HAF, Kate. I agree that if the universe was as described in the Bible (or indeed, the Quran), horror would be a reasonable response. In my opinion, your intro post was clear and concise; not too wordy at all, but maybe I just have a high tolerance. :D
I'm not going to get into your second post too much, since it's likely that (as you say) it will be split off to a more serious section. My way of handling this sort of situation may be considered cowardly, but generally I simply avoid getting into problematic topics with the more staunchly religious members of my family. My excuse is that there were some heated (and completely unproductive) confrontations in the past, and I consider it pointless to cover the same ground. It would only revive bad feelings, and I don't think any of them are going to change their minds.
QuoteNotes for new members from Tank:
The Rules. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=1522.0)
Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php#2) section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.
Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5133.0)
10 Things About Yourself (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4940.0)
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8215.0)
Photography (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7607.0)
Non-religious pet peeves (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=6917.0)
Pets...what do you have? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)
How to tell your family you are an atheist. (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5111.0)*
*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.
In addition, you may find the following of interest: "Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5631.0).
I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here! (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg830.imageshack.us%2Fimg830%2F860%2Fsmilew.gif&hash=8238eab24d16418eb1c8cd60d971239ab1363c74)
Welcome! Your intro was fine; heck, I'm pretty sure mine was longer. And there are a few members of this forum who are in a similar situation as you.
Hello
Quote from: Dobermonster on January 27, 2012, 01:25:03 AM
Part of why I joined is to seek advice on the issue of maintaining good relationships with devout Christian family and friends. Due to unfortunate life circumstances, I am moving back in with my parents for a little while for the first time since I was 19 (I am 24). I have had much conflict with them over the years because of the choices I have made and who I am.... What is the approach? How can you foster a good relationship with someone of this mindset?
Hi!
-option one- the honest, "full monty" route
to the bottom core of existence
a)open your wings and fly away from the nest
b) your life begins when you receive the genetic relay baton from your DYING parent
c) Freedom is the greatest fruit of self-sufficiency= find a mate to move-in with
d) abandon ship
-option two- the thespian , oh how so propre route
acting your way to complacent comfort, deviant, hypocritical and analogous
a)start yoga, resign your intellect
b) lead a secret life
c) in from one ear, out of the other, each communication, remember when you hear anything from them, you will eventually bury them-buld the resources for route 1
d) they would like your behaviour If you were a heroin junkie, accepting everything and liking what you sober find disgusting. Its hard to do this without medication but it's worth it because they do not deserve being the reason for any self-damage as an adaptive response
You are yourself and have the right to be who you like -never forget- no matter how much compromise you temporarily fall into
Quote from: pytheas on January 27, 2012, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: Dobermonster on January 27, 2012, 01:25:03 AM
Part of why I joined is to seek advice on the issue of maintaining good relationships with devout Christian family and friends. Due to unfortunate life circumstances, I am moving back in with my parents for a little while for the first time since I was 19 (I am 24). I have had much conflict with them over the years because of the choices I have made and who I am.... What is the approach? How can you foster a good relationship with someone of this mindset?
Hi!
-option one- the honest, "full monty" route
to the bottom core of existence
a)open your wings and fly away from the nest
b) your life begins when you receive the genetic relay baton from your DYING parent
c) Freedom is the greatest fruit of self-sufficiency= find a mate to move-in with
d) abandon ship
-option two- the thespian , oh how so propre route
acting your way to complacent comfort, deviant, hypocritical and analogous
a)start yoga, resign your intellect
b) lead a secret life
c) in from one ear, out of the other, each communication, remember when you hear anything from them, you will eventually bury them-buld the resources for route 1
d) they would like your behaviour If you were a heroin junkie, accepting everything and liking what you sober find disgusting. Its hard to do this without medication but it's worth it because they do not deserve being the reason for any self-damage as an adaptive response
You are yourself and have the right to be who you like -never forget- no matter how much compromise you temporarily fall into
I took option 1 when I was 19. I finished a college program (not where I wanted to end, but a starting point), I married, I bought a house at 20, and then it fell to pieces through divorce and (since the ex-spouse decided not to pay the mortgage), foreclosure, all during which time I struggled with clinical depression and a chronic disease that was only diagnosed a month ago. Option 1 will always be the one I try for first. And though my parents are close-minded, they are "good" people - generous, helpful, and kind. If it wasn't understood that they found my lifestyle "horrifying", I think we would get along fine. While in their house, I have to moderate my choices, which is not a problem - it's their house, I respect that they value qualities that I do not. It's simply that I want to reduce and deflect as much religious tension that comes my way, as well as just be able to have a conversation that does not make me want to facepalm. If it were a few week stay, I would not worry so much. But I'm starting a Psychiatric Nursing program in March that may delay Option 1 until I receive student funding (should I be eligible) that will give me the financial edge needed to live independently.
Thank you all for the welcome. :)
Welcome, your intro wasn't too long at all -- in fact, we tend to like long and informative around here.
As to your problem, that's a tough one esp. since you're between a rock and a hard place financially. I'd say just avoid any topic that could turn religious (which may restrict you to the weather and "oh look at that hummingbird in the yard!") and resign yourself to bland conversations with your parents, at least while you're under their roof. Maybe think of it as a form of rent.
Hello and welcome! You're in a tough spot, and you sound like you're handling a series of issues as best you can. I, too, have moved back in with my mom, and am in the middle of a career crisis. And I'm 54. These days it can happen anytime. I'm lucky that my mom's not religious, so we get along fine. My extended family, however, is extremely religious and live in the bible belt (about 1000 miles away). I don't see them often, but when I do my filters are at their strongest, my shields are on high, and I bite my tongue a lot. It's not necessarily fun, but it can be done when needed. I recommend you try to find friends who have similar interests and beliefs. Sometimes easier said than done of course. Good luck to you!!! :)
Gosh I missed an intro!
Welcome aboard. The 10 post rule is to deter trolls and as you don't appear to be one feel free to continue this thread here. I'll move it after you reach your 10.
Regards
Chris
Quote from: Tank on January 28, 2012, 09:23:45 AM
Welcome aboard. The 10 post rule is to deter trolls and as you don't appear to be one feel free to continue this thread here. I'll move it after you reach your 10.
Dobermonster, if you are having trouble getting to ten I'm up for a few rounds of paper scissors rock, don't expect any pity though.
I would also like to call you a pheasant plucker and sometimes somnambulist, if that's OK. ;D
Say, does your username mean you have dobermans? I have a greyhound and some of the little Italian greyhound ankle biters. I love dobies too. :)
Welcome!
IMO it's about choosing your battles, focusing on religious issues with people who are close to you can be draining, and that energy is probably better directed at reaching financial stability or independence once again.
It's not always worthwhile, think it through.
Traveler - Yep, I have a Dobie, and they are one of my favorite breeds (obviously). ;D
Had the first conflict today . . . it turns they have some sort of 'nanny' program on their router, and I apparently visited an inappropriate site at some point (which I'm not ashamed of, but honestly don't recall). Such a thing is equivalent to using their internet for evil, and they shut down the router. Gritted my teeth, apologized for transgressing on an unspoken rule, and voila. Still may result in parental controls being applied to block certain sites, but as long as I can still communicate freely with friends, write my thoughts, and research things that interest me (non-carnal, of course), I'm ok. The totalitarian state lives in the minds of many, but as long as praise of this particular Dear Leader is not mandatory, I think I can cope. Just wish we could all act like adults and discuss an issue rather than react with immediate censorship and condemnation.
Blech. Vent over.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 03, 2012, 04:55:38 AM
Traveler - Yep, I have a Dobie, and they are one of my favorite breeds (obviously). ;D
Had the first conflict today . . . it turns they have some sort of 'nanny' program on their router, and I apparently visited an inappropriate site at some point (which I'm not ashamed of, but honestly don't recall). Such a thing is equivalent to using their internet for evil, and they shut down the router. Gritted my teeth, apologized for transgressing on an unspoken rule, and voila. Still may result in parental controls being applied to block certain sites, but as long as I can still communicate freely with friends, write my thoughts, and research things that interest me (non-carnal, of course), I'm ok. The totalitarian state lives in the minds of many, but as long as praise of this particular Dear Leader is not mandatory, I think I can cope. Just wish we could all act like adults and discuss an issue rather than react with immediate censorship and condemnation.
Blech. Vent over.
I don't imagine they would be happy theists if they knew you had strayed into this den of iniquity. Unfortunately, the kind of hermetically sealed zealotry that has your parents in its grip is not susceptible to compromise. Given their basic premises, it is entirely logical for them to "save you from youself", and indeed they would see it as their duty and a profound kindness to do so. There really can be no reasoning with those who have renounced reason. You are luckier than some I have known in that you have the prospect of extricating yourself from their sphere of influence in the foreseeable future. But I do feel huge sympathy for your situation which is galling and demeaning for you, and I do hope that you make your escape sooner rather than later. In the meanwhile, it would seem that the oral masochism of teeth-gritting and tongue-biting comprises the most prudent policy.
Hello. My fear of death and atheism kind of came together at the same time. Once I realized I didn't "believe" anymore, I became scared to think of nothingness. Anyway welcome!
Robert - 'nothingness' really is the only way to describe it. It was confounding when I realized that not everyone thinks about death and how only the span of a breath separates us from consciousness and the void. It's something that lives in my thoughts constantly. The one grace we have (as I see it) is the flood of endorphins at the end that eliminates anxiety and eases into unconsciousness peacefully. Maybe one day I'll come up with a less feeble reason to be at peace with mortality.
En_Route - Thanks for your kind words. A demeaning situation? Yes. Infuriating? Even more so. It's hard for people around me to understand just how dogmatic these folks are, and how much they despise my lifestyle. When we were arguing the other day, it ended up in a very typical atheist vs. Christianity conflict, which I was trying to avoid from the start. At some point during this, I brought up their religion's attitude towards my sexuality, and my own mother stated that being bi was as bad as being a paedophile. Yes, you read that right. Having relations with someone of the same sex is equivalent to molesting children. At least in the eyes of God. And they wonder why I think their god is a dick.
Anyhow . . . it has blown over and we are back to niceties. I keep telling myself that they are just misguided . . . that they are trying to be good people in their own way and just don't understand how hurtful their words are.
Religion has wreaked enormous harm in the field of personal relationships. Gay sex inspires particular horror amongst the theistic ranks so your parents'attitude is not so shocking in that context.
Have received the following notice from the people in question:
"Internet posting of messages, photos, or any sayings or words that are rude, derogatory, profane, or otherwise contrary to our faith and Christian standard is prohibited."
I have no words. How ironic. I did not think they would stoop this far. There was a verbal addendum of "And no posting anything promoting homosexuality".
Moved in exactly one week ago. Moving out now priority one.
Might have to postpone post-secondary education once more.
Fucking depressed.
That stinks. I'm so sorry. If you really have trouble with their limits, most libraries have free computer access.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 05, 2012, 04:58:20 AM
Have received the following notice from the people in question:
"Internet posting of messages, photos, or any sayings or words that are rude, derogatory, profane, or otherwise contrary to our faith and Christian standard is prohibited."
I have no words. How ironic. I did not think they would stoop this far. There was a verbal addendum of "And no posting anything promoting homosexuality".
Moved in exactly one week ago. Moving out now priority one.
Might have to postpone post-secondary education once more.
Fucking depressed.
That's some all-purpose wash-your-mouth-out-and -say- three -thousand- hail- Marys mega-filter. China would be proud of it. Have you friends who could advise you of a workaround? I sincerely hope you find a means of circumventing this - primarily for your own sake but also selfishly because I'm enjoying your posts.
I'm sorry for your situation, Dobermonster; that really, really bites. I hope you can find a good solution soon.
Well, I've spent quite a bit of time yesterday and today making the point that inhibiting free speech within the household would no more encourage good relations between the three of us than it would endear citizens to a (even benevolent) dictator. Went on to outline that the ease with which they discard/inhibit this particular right trivializes and disrespects the people have been persecuted or killed in the pursuit of it. Perhaps a bit heavy-handed? Anyhow, apparently the source of all this was from being butt-hurt over a facebook post I made some months ago that criticized proselytization. If they wish to trade the remainder of respect I had for them and their faith for the illusion of it, so be it. I only wish they valued our relationship more than security against being offended.
Will keep on posting here as normal, and if the hammer falls, I'll just have to rely on the glory of Starbucks wi-fi. If nothing else, I've been inspired to do some writing. ;)
Yay! Sounds good, and I admire your courage under fire. :)
Do you have a smartphone by any chance? If so, maybe your best bet is to use that, and/or to tether its internet connection to your computer. It costs money to tether, but it might be worth it. Or if you're really comfortable with technology, you can do what I did and root your phone to get free tethering. Either way, it can help you avoid their version of the Great Firewall.
Either way, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Hang in there.
That's too bad about your mother. I know how they feel towards homosexuality. It is pretty much the same with the suicide thing. Some in my family have commited suicide, and they told me that the only thing for them is eternal hellfire. Complete bullshit. I listen to how merciful their god is right before they talk about burning in hell for gluttony. Yeah that sounds pretty merciful. I told my mother that I am an atheist and she said you have a problem with your head. I said because I don't believe in a 600 year old drunken fool building a giant ark I have a problem. She said It really says that? Yeah so don't criticize me on my beliefs when you haven't even read the fricking book. She quit bothering me after that because when she brings it up I throw up more ridiculous parts of the bible. People tend to leave me alone with the bible argument bc they know that the things in it are ridiculous and impossible. Being a homosexual is wrong why? It goes against the nature that god created. Really? Was that before or after the talking snake? Oh you forgot that part? How about people rising up into the sky for no reason? Riiiight.
Quote from: Robert on February 06, 2012, 02:59:18 PM
That's too bad about your mother. I know how they feel towards homosexuality. It is pretty much the same with the suicide thing. Some in my family have commited suicide, and they told me that the only thing for them is eternal hellfire. Complete bullshit. I listen to how merciful their god is right before they talk about burning in hell for gluttony. Yeah that sounds pretty merciful. I told my mother that I am an atheist and she said you have a problem with your head. I said because I don't believe in a 600 year old drunken fool building a giant ark I have a problem. She said It really says that? Yeah so don't criticize me on my beliefs when you haven't even read the fricking book. She quit bothering me after that because when she brings it up I throw up more ridiculous parts of the bible. People tend to leave me alone with the bible argument bc they know that the things in it are ridiculous and impossible. Being a homosexual is wrong why? It goes against the nature that god created. Really? Was that before or after the talking snake? Oh you forgot that part? How about people rising up into the sky for no reason? Riiiight.
As someone who has struggled with depression for years, and contemplated suicide more than a couple times, the (largely Catholic, I believe) belief that those who commit suicide deserve eternal hellfire is appalling as well. A god that inflicts torment on already tormented souls is not a god I care to serve, regardless of whether or not he/she/it exists. Not to mention, clinical depression very often has neurological causes - so the god who designed my mind fucked up . . . and because of his mistake, I must pay. (And don't give me that, 'if you just turn to Jebus, he will deliver you from your sorrow' line . . . prayer is about as likely to cure a psychological disorder as it is to cure cancer). Sorry . . . I've been in permanent vent mode for the last week, and it all pours out whenever someone mentions an issue close to my heart.
I've brought up the more malicious and insane properties of the old testament God to these people as well. Two guesses as to what their answer was, the first one doesn't count. Yep, "God works in mysterious ways". I'm sure none of what I've said comes as a surprise to anyone who's had a 5 minute conversation with a devout, but there it is.
Don't have a smartphone, I got rid of it when trimming my budget some months ago. I might be in a position to get one in a couple months, we'll see. This 'tethering' thing sounds interesting . . . from that you might guess I'm not completely techno-literate, but where there's a will, there's a way.
Thanks again everyone who posted supportive words . . . I didn't really mean for this thread to become a stream of whingeing, lol, but I do appreciate the opportunity to vent to like-minded folks. Will make more of an attempt to come up with positive discussions - doG willing. ;)
Tethering means you use your phone as your internet connection, either by connecting it to your computer via usb or turning it on in wireless mode, so it acts like its own wireless router. Short of that, maybe you should just try to mooch off a neighbor's wi-fi :)
And yes, I am up far too late for US time. Damn insomnia again.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 07, 2012, 05:27:08 AM
Quote from: Robert on February 06, 2012, 02:59:18 PM
That's too bad about your mother. I know how they feel towards homosexuality. It is pretty much the same with the suicide thing. Some in my family have commited suicide, and they told me that the only thing for them is eternal hellfire. Complete bullshit. I listen to how merciful their god is right before they talk about burning in hell for gluttony. Yeah that sounds pretty merciful. I told my mother that I am an atheist and she said you have a problem with your head. I said because I don't believe in a 600 year old drunken fool building a giant ark I have a problem. She said It really says that? Yeah so don't criticize me on my beliefs when you haven't even read the fricking book. She quit bothering me after that because when she brings it up I throw up more ridiculous parts of the bible. People tend to leave me alone with the bible argument bc they know that the things in it are ridiculous and impossible. Being a homosexual is wrong why? It goes against the nature that god created. Really? Was that before or after the talking snake? Oh you forgot that part? How about people rising up into the sky for no reason? Riiiight.
As someone who has struggled with depression for years, and contemplated suicide more than a couple times, the (largely Catholic, I believe) belief that those who commit suicide deserve eternal hellfire is appalling as well. A god that inflicts torment on already tormented souls is not a god I care to serve, regardless of whether or not he/she/it exists. Not to mention, clinical depression very often has neurological causes - so the god who designed my mind fucked up . . . and because of his mistake, I must pay. (And don't give me that, 'if you just turn to Jebus, he will deliver you from your sorrow' line . . . prayer is about as likely to cure a psychological disorder as it is to cure cancer). Sorry . . . I've been in permanent vent mode for the last week, and it all pours out whenever someone mentions an issue close to my heart.
I've brought up the more malicious and insane properties of the old testament God to these people as well. Two guesses as to what their answer was, the first one doesn't count. Yep, "God works in mysterious ways". I'm sure none of what I've said comes as a surprise to anyone who's had a 5 minute conversation with a devout, but there it is.
Don't have a smartphone, I got rid of it when trimming my budget some months ago. I might be in a position to get one in a couple months, we'll see. This 'tethering' thing sounds interesting . . . from that you might guess I'm not completely techno-literate, but where there's a will, there's a way.
Thanks again everyone who posted supportive words . . . I didn't really mean for this thread to become a stream of whingeing, lol, but I do appreciate the opportunity to vent to like-minded folks. Will make more of an attempt to come up with positive discussions - doG willing. ;)
Not to re-enter the lists in terms of the free will/ personal responsibility debate, the idea that you might serve an infinite jail sentence for your malfunctioning imposed by the very guy who made you was the self-evident absurdity that gave me the intellectual justification to ditch the Catholic faith at a fairly precocious age. Like you, and I suspect anyone with a bent towards reflectiveness and introversion, I've had the black dog snapping at my heels throughout my life too. I find Mindfulness has been helpful in keeping him in his kennel; it has been shown to produce changes in the brain which counter low mood. Could I say, without criticising, that I think confronting your parents may seem therapeutic and justified but will probably only exacerbate your domestic difficulties. Nobody wants to hear they are wrong or have their most cherished beliefs dissed. And you certainly aren't going to wreak any transformation in their entrenched positions. You don't have to pretend to agree with them but maybe it would ease things a little if you steered clear of areas of disagreement (if they let you, that is).
EDIT: Put Ed's comment
outside the quotes ::) Tank
I never got that either. Somebody is in so much pain they decide to end it, so they are going to be put in a place where they are in pain for all eternity? Doesn't add up to me :-\
Im like that myself. I dont mind atheist, agnostic, skeptic, freethinker, not religious...they all fit me well and pretty much mean the same thing.
I dont mind "bright" either sometimes, but I really dont care to much for the title itself alltogether. The word "bright" just gives people the wrong impression if you ask me...not that I would give anyone who calls themselves "bright" on this forum any crap over it.