Used as the premise with which:
-abortion is claimed to be "murder"
-euthanasia and suicide is considered "wrong"
-Higher attributes of the human psyche ("soul" "spirit" the mental self) like love, trust, values and worthiness are separated forn their actual origin=human and are wrongfully assigned to another positive (fictional) entity =god, jzs, goodie
-Lower and negative attributes of the human animal are again separated from their actual origin=human and are wrongfully assigned to yet another negative (fictional) entity = devil, satan, badie
There is a significant remark you may want to billboard in everybody's consciousness
If you say my body does not belong to me, but to God, then YOU ARE A SLAVE TRADER in need of a Nurenberg trial
If some asshole god wants to lay claim to my body, he can send me a letter, which I will toss into the recycling bin without reading.
If my body belongs to god why does it complain to me?
I have an interest in my body.
So do a multitude of bacteria.
The occasional virus may stake a claim.
A large fish may see things entirely differently.
The following comes from the most revered buffoon claimed to write it:
1 Corinthians 6:12-20
1. God has criterion for believers body. 6:12-13
a. Must edify self. 6:12
b. Must not enslave the soul. 6:12
c. Must exalt the Savior. 10:31
d. Must encourage the saints. 8:13
e. Must evangelize sinners. 9:19-22; 10:32-33
f. Must exemplify the Savior. 11:1
2. God has intent for believers body. 6:13-14
a. In the present God will use believers body. 6:13
b. In the future God will raise believers body. 6:14
3. God protects believers body. 6:15-18
a. Remember your sacred union with god. 6:15-17
b. Avoid sexual perversion. 6:18
4. God has possession of believers body. 6:19
a. Believer is important to God.
b. God is in believers body.
5. God has paid for believers body. 6:20
a. God is the owner of believers body.
b. Believer to honor God with believers body.
"Sounds fishy" isn't quite what I'd call it.
A Christian has no "rights"; but instead "gifts." The Bible does not mention "right to life", for example, because life is a gift. A Christian has no "rights" over their body; God holds those "rights". A Christian's body is but an instrument to be used in service to God, a living temple of God. It is not a private domain for them to use as they seem fit. Life is a gift that they are made responsible for. As a responsible Christian, they are not to gripe or whine so much as they get involved (in whatever) as long as they lead the way in good stewardship of God's gifts exemplified in the likes of 1 Cor 6 and elsewhere within the Bible.
Any way to decrease oneself's humanity and exalt the unknown; to not be led to believe a giant fist withholds their "rights", but instead to feel grateful for such a free gift, despite the unreasonable responsibilities for maintaining it is just plain wrong.
Well, I've gone ahead and fucked up my "temple" with tattoos, piercings, alcohol, and caffeine. And I don't plan on having any more babies, so my body is probably pretty useless to God :P
If God paid for my body (per Gawen's post) then I urge him to try to find out what kind of warranty I'm under. Parts of me were clearly built with planned obsolescence in mind. ;D
Does anyone else find it odd that an entity with no body and does not live as humans do gives a body and life to humans as a gift AND THEN commands them how they MUST use it?
Not particularly odd. What I mean is, when I think about them logically, I find most things in Christianity to be illogical and convoluted (I'm sure I would for other religions too, but being raised Christian, that is the religion that I know the best), so the whole incorporeal being who gives you a body and tells you how to use it is actually low on my personal "side eye meter." Comparatively speaking.
Oh if I was a god I'd be telling people what to do with their bodies.
I'd have an eternity to while away, amusement would be required.
I've taken sadistic pleasure rigging twister games, I don't think scaling this up would present a problem.
If god paid for my body, there are lots of issues to fix, such as my ovary inbalance. T_T
Haha, I am the definition of sexual perversion. I like everything. Screw you god.
Ad's comment that caused a giant derail mess are here along with the related replies http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9240.0
There are no warranties, per se. But you do get a new model after you die. I've always wondered what a Christian will look like after his/her resurrection. I mean, will you look like you did just before you died? Will you look like you're twenty if you died at 85? Will resurrected babies be babies or look like they're 20? If they're babies, who will care for them? Will men's foreskins be reattached and have to lop them off again? Ahh, that's neither here nor there.
It would seem about the only thing one can do is have his foreskin chopped off...unless he's a Gentile or American (still popular over here). That makes me wonder if Jews for Jesus get it lopped off.
And women can wear jewelery, but not in church. Then again, 1 Timothy 2:9 says you can't wear it at all.
No tattoos.
Oh yeah, we can still drink wine. Nothing in the Bible about ale's, spirits nor the amount of wine one can consume.
What a bunch of horse puckey...
Quote from: Gawen
But you do get a new model after you die.
the single thing religions hang on to and depend upon for their existence, commiting the most heinous crime of not allowing or helping the current model IN LIFE to live in harmony with each other
Quote from: Gawen on January 28, 2012, 11:18:42 AM
There are no warranties, per se. But you do get a new model after you die. I've always wondered what a Christian will look like after his/her resurrection. I mean, will you look like you did just before you died? Will you look like you're twenty if you died at 85? Will resurrected babies be babies or look like they're 20? If they're babies, who will care for them? Will men's foreskins be reattached and have to lop them off again? Ahh, that's neither here nor there.
I've wondered much the same. I hope closer to my twenties.
Look around. If god were the owner of everyones' bodies, shouldn't he take better care of his shit.
Quote from: Reprobate on February 20, 2012, 02:57:51 PM
Look around. If god were the owner of everyones' bodies, shouldn't he take better care of his shit.
Haha. You would think.
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
That's one way of looking at it...and frankly, Paul's scripture would prove you right.
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
:D A theistic justification for masturbation! Well done sir!
Quote from: Tank on February 21, 2012, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
:D A theistic justification for masturbation! Well done sir!
And that's only the beginning!
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
apart from the accurate jokes, the remark about paul's scriptures is in level sinister with your take home message.
How easy to abandon responsibility and become defiant, egotistically centered and full of one's self.
the archetypal king Kreon with his daughter antigone, justified yet disconnected
That is the tremendous appeal we as atheists are facing against the weak and credulous. And they may be many.
Quote from: pytheas on February 22, 2012, 05:55:51 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
apart from the accurate jokes, the remark about paul's scriptures is in level sinister with your take home message.
How easy to abandon responsibility and become defiant, egotistically centered and full of one's self.
the archetypal king Kreon with his daughter antigone, justified yet disconnected
That is the tremendous appeal we as atheists are facing against the weak and credulous. And they may be many.
Paul's scriptures don't apply in my specific case, as I'm not a Christian. I also don't consider myself to be either weak or credulous, though I suppose that I could be wrong.
Along the lines of the "I don't believe in morality/ethics" thread, I find all moral values and ethical systems to be subjective. Personally (and all jokes aside), while I attempt to go along with what I consider to be God's will, I'm also aware that my brain is an imperfect translator for the perfect, and that I'm just as subject to cultural prejudices, societal pressures, and other temporal and limited concerns as anyone else. Still and all, I do my best to do right by other people, to practice compassion, to tolerate and welcome all that which does not infringe upon the rights or safety of others, and to attempt to understand the struggles of others to come to their own terms with the mysteries of existence. That's largely my basis for what I define as good, and it's the best method that I have for expressing what I see as God's will.
Quote from: statichaos on February 22, 2012, 06:25:44 PM
Paul's scriptures don't apply in my specific case, as I'm not a Christian. I also don't consider myself to be either weak or credulous, though I suppose that I could be wrong.
Along the lines of the "I don't believe in morality/ethics" thread, I find all moral values and ethical systems to be subjective. Personally (and all jokes aside), while I attempt to go along with what I consider to be God's will, I'm also aware that my brain is an imperfect translator for the perfect, and that I'm just as subject to cultural prejudices, societal pressures, and other temporal and limited concerns as anyone else. Still and all, I do my best to do right by other people, to practice compassion, to tolerate and welcome all that which does not infringe upon the rights or safety of others, and to attempt to understand the struggles of others to come to their own terms with the mysteries of existence. That's largely my basis for what I define as good, and it's the best method that I have for expressing what I see as God's will.
In light of the above post and your post below...How is it you consider WHAT God's will is? It seems to me that it may be a guess on your part unless there are parts of scripture (assuming you consider the Christian God, God... which you might clarify for me) or some other written work you base this "will" on? How is God's will made known to you?
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
One more question on the above point you make. If this be so, is there a limit to what this God ordains for you to do to yourself or does this ordaining include the whims of your [imperfect] mind?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on February 23, 2012, 05:38:48 PMIt seems to me that it may be a guess on your part unless there are parts of scripture (assuming you consider the Christian God, God... which you might clarify for me) or some other written work you base this "will" on? How is God's will made known to you?
I disagree, whether you refer to a guess by statichaos or a guess made by some dudes a long time ago, really makes no difference. Because asking how one knows is an equally valid question to the dudes that wrote it in the book a long time ago.
Quote from: Davin on February 23, 2012, 05:41:31 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on February 23, 2012, 05:38:48 PMIt seems to me that it may be a guess on your part unless there are parts of scripture (assuming you consider the Christian God, God... which you might clarify for me) or some other written work you base this "will" on? How is God's will made known to you?
I disagree, whether you refer to a guess by statichaos or a guess made by some dudes a long time ago, really makes no difference. Because asking how one knows is an equally valid question to the dudes that wrote it in the book a long time ago.
I can see your point, given your stance, however at least one can know a person's point of reference like how I'm a Christian so *you would know I base lots of my belief on the bibilical texts and therefore *you can refer to these texts to know more of my position or question my position based on the texts.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on February 23, 2012, 05:45:14 PMI can see your point, given your stance, however at least one can know a person's point of reference like how I'm a Christian so *you would know I base lots of my belief on the bibilical texts and therefore *you can refer to these texts to know more of my position or question my position based on the texts.
Aye, it's just a guess either way.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on February 23, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 22, 2012, 06:25:44 PM
Paul's scriptures don't apply in my specific case, as I'm not a Christian. I also don't consider myself to be either weak or credulous, though I suppose that I could be wrong.
Along the lines of the "I don't believe in morality/ethics" thread, I find all moral values and ethical systems to be subjective. Personally (and all jokes aside), while I attempt to go along with what I consider to be God's will, I'm also aware that my brain is an imperfect translator for the perfect, and that I'm just as subject to cultural prejudices, societal pressures, and other temporal and limited concerns as anyone else. Still and all, I do my best to do right by other people, to practice compassion, to tolerate and welcome all that which does not infringe upon the rights or safety of others, and to attempt to understand the struggles of others to come to their own terms with the mysteries of existence. That's largely my basis for what I define as good, and it's the best method that I have for expressing what I see as God's will.
In light of the above post and your post below...How is it you consider WHAT God's will is? It seems to me that it may be a guess on your part unless there are parts of scripture (assuming you consider the Christian God, God... which you might clarify for me) or some other written work you base this "will" on? How is God's will made known to you?
Quote from: statichaos on February 20, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
I have no issue with the idea that my body belongs to God. This also means that my brain belongs to God, which means that my thoughts are produced by God, which in turn means that anything that I do to my body is ordained as good by God.
One more question on the above point you make. If this be so, is there a limit to what this God ordains for you to do to yourself or does this ordaining include the whims of your [imperfect] mind?
It may indeed be a guess. I have had my experiences with the divine, ones that I find it difficult to express in words. I am convinced of God's existence, though I have no interest in attempting to convince anyone else of his existence, and find such attempts to be well-meaning if tacky at best, and downright deadly at worst. All that I can do is live up to what makes reasonable and intuitive sense in the face of such revelation, and to try to be the kind of person I want to see myself as. I fall short of this mark quite regularly, but I continue in the attempt. I have no specific scriptures to rely on, though I do find inspiration in the attempts of others to express the mysteries of life and existence.
If I'm mistaken, I'll find out eventually or I won't. In the meantime, there are worse ways to live one's life.
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 06:00:25 PM
It may indeed be a guess. I have had my experiences with the divine, ones that I find it difficult to express in words. I am convinced of God's existence, though I have no interest in attempting to convince anyone else of his existence, and find such attempts to be well-meaning if tacky at best, and downright deadly at worst. All that I can do is live up to what makes reasonable and intuitive sense in the face of such revelation, and to try to be the kind of person I want to see myself as. I fall short of this mark quite regularly, but I continue in the attempt. I have no specific scriptures to rely on, though I do find inspiration in the attempts of others to express the mysteries of life and existence.
If I'm mistaken, I'll find out eventually or I won't. In the meantime, there are worse ways to live one's life.
True. I did not intend to make your way better or worse. Simply wondered if there was a basis other than simply personal experience (which I believe is a strong reason) and/or your own idea of "God". Thanks for your answer. It helps.
Quote from: statichaos on February 22, 2012, 06:25:44 PM
That's largely my basis for what I define as good, and it's the best method that I have for expressing what I see as God's will.
How do you know what god's will is?
What makes you think god wants you to be good?
Could god simply be using people for pure entertainment, or as an experiment to see how quickly we develop certain technologies, or maybe as an experiment to see if people could cast away belief in gods if gods ignored us for all of our existence. Why the focus on good? How do you even know what god would consider to be good?
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 06:34:45 PM
How do you know what god's will is?
I don't know for sure. I'm simply interpreting to the best of my ability, but I'm subject to the same misunderstandings, cultural biases, and so on as anyone else.
QuoteWhat makes you think god wants you to be good?
Same answer as above.
QuoteCould god simply be using people for pure entertainment, or as an experiment to see how quickly we develop certain technologies, or maybe as an experiment to see if people could cast away belief in gods if gods ignored us for all of our existence.
Possible. If so, it's irrelevant to me, since I like to think that I'd be good even without the personal revelation.
QuoteWhy the focus on good? How do you even know what god would consider to be good?
Personal revelation again. And, no, I can't really describe it. If I were trying to convince you, I wouldn't have an argument at hand. All that I know is that I've experienced it, and I live my life by it to the best of my ability.
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
QuoteCould god simply be using people for pure entertainment, or as an experiment to see how quickly we develop certain technologies, or maybe as an experiment to see if people could cast away belief in gods if gods ignored us for all of our existence.
Possible. If so, it's irrelevant to me, since I like to think that I'd be good even without the personal revelation.
You are the first deist (hope you are comfortable with that label) that I have talked to.
It seems to me the god belief becomes largely irrelevant. That you would be who you are regardless if you believed that there was a god or not.
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 07:03:05 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
QuoteCould god simply be using people for pure entertainment, or as an experiment to see how quickly we develop certain technologies, or maybe as an experiment to see if people could cast away belief in gods if gods ignored us for all of our existence.
Possible. If so, it's irrelevant to me, since I like to think that I'd be good even without the personal revelation.
You are the first deist (hope you are comfortable with that label) that I have talked to.
It seems to me the god belief becomes largely irrelevant. That you would be who you are regardless if you believed that there was a god or not.
Well, certainly, although I'm not a deist. Panentheist comes closer, though I'm wary of a label of any sort, as any attempt to describe what God is almost inevitably ends up implying what God isn't. "The Tao that can be described is not the Tao".
I don't consider my belief to be irrelevant, actually, as I feel that what I do and who I am (and who you are, and everything else in the universe) is part of a larger, greater design. I'd still attempt to be moral and ethical for any number of cultural reasons in the absence of God (as I did when I was an atheist), since that has everything to do with being able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I'm suspicious of people who claim that there is no morality or ethics without God, as I worry that if they changed their minds on the matter, then they'd suddenly start killing and raping people willy-nilly.
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
I'm suspicious of people who claim that there is no morality or ethics without God, as I worry that if they changed their minds on the matter, then they'd suddenly start killing and raping people willy-nilly.
Lacking a belief in morals is similar to lacking a belief in gods.
A god unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, there are statistics that show the are more law abiding than the believer.
A moral unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, self preservation ensures they act reasonably.
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 07:38:04 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
I'm suspicious of people who claim that there is no morality or ethics without God, as I worry that if they changed their minds on the matter, then they'd suddenly start killing and raping people willy-nilly.
Lacking a belief in morals is similar to lacking a belief in gods.
A god unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, there are statistics that show the are more law abiding than the believer.
A moral unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, self preservation ensures they act reasonably.
I agree with you on this, although those aren't the only reasons for an unbeliever to act morally and ethically.
Belief is no guarantee in morals. In fact, history shows that people are capable of all sorts of atrocities if they believe that they have God on their side.
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 07:42:46 PM
Quote from: Stevil on February 23, 2012, 07:38:04 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 23, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
I'm suspicious of people who claim that there is no morality or ethics without God, as I worry that if they changed their minds on the matter, then they'd suddenly start killing and raping people willy-nilly.
Lacking a belief in morals is similar to lacking a belief in gods.
A god unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, there are statistics that show the are more law abiding than the believer.
A moral unbeliever doesn't act untoward in society, self preservation ensures they act reasonably.
I agree with you on this, although those aren't the only reasons for an unbeliever to act morally and ethically.
Belief is no guarantee in morals. In fact, history shows that people are capable of all sorts of atrocities if they believe that they have God on their side.
I think history shows that people who think they are unquestionably right are capable off all sorts of atrocities, irrespective of their theistic view point. I suspect that Religions get such bad press in the atrocity stakes because bad people can invoke 'God's Will' just as effectively as good people. And if you can claim God is on your side then that's just one more reason you're right.
I don't know what you're rambling on about. I'm obviously the chosen one. :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 24, 2012, 05:32:51 AM
I don't know what you're rambling on about. I'm obviously the chosen one. :)
When you find that you've been anointed The Chosen One, remember to get specific details regarding exactly what it is that you've been chosen for.
Quote from: statichaos on February 24, 2012, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 24, 2012, 05:32:51 AM
I don't know what you're rambling on about. I'm obviously the chosen one. :)
When you find that you've been anointed The Chosen One, remember to get specific details regarding exactly what it is that you've been chosen for.
better still, let me do the annointing with appropriate ointments that some consider spirits in plants
Static i didn't expect you believed really in any god in order to put a capital letter to the word.
I stand corrected
i can easily switch in accepting the greater grid/design or the lack thereof in the visions and revelations when I am entheogenically invited to partake in altered states of perception that scramble the ego's logic for a while.
but we all ought to grasp our breath back when sober we realise the paradoxal void of universal non sense.
painting and blowing our baloon of comfortable "understanding" with any extra imaginery impositions, i hate to point to the needle-pins of experience that pop the baloons
Quote from: pytheas on February 26, 2012, 05:44:33 PM
Quote from: statichaos on February 24, 2012, 04:47:29 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 24, 2012, 05:32:51 AM
I don't know what you're rambling on about. I'm obviously the chosen one. :)
When you find that you've been anointed The Chosen One, remember to get specific details regarding exactly what it is that you've been chosen for.
better still, let me do the annointing with appropriate ointments that some consider spirits in plants
Static i didn't expect you believed really in any god in order to put a capital letter to the word.
I stand corrected
i can easily switch in accepting the greater grid/design or the lack thereof in the visions and revelations when I am entheogenically invited to partake in altered states of perception that scramble the ego's logic for a while.
but we all ought to grasp our breath back when sober we realise the paradoxal void of universal non sense.
painting and blowing our baloon of comfortable "understanding" with any extra imaginery impositions, i hate to point to the needle-pins of experience that pop the baloons
Actually, I was an atheist, and it was these needle pins of experience (drug free) that caused me to rethink my position. However, I don't expect to convince anyone else of the rightness of my viewpoint, and am instead more interested in finding common ground.