Is it just me or do theists continually harp on about how atheists are missing out because we don't suck up to some ancient mythological institutionalised superstition?
I think the TV programme on the BBC last Sunday "Is there any evidence fo God?" was getting on for the last straw for me. The smug Imam sitting there like he owned the fucking world! What an obnoxious little prick. And the Christians were no better. They had nothing to offer but their ingrained belief and faith. Some (most?) didn't even understand what constitutes 'evidence'!
I don't need a bloody God thank you very much! I'm not missing out because I don't hide under a comfort blanket of superstition!
[/rant]
I suppose this is an entirely rhetorical question. ;-)
I don't need a bloody/damn god, a stupid god, a jealous god, an evil god, an intolerant god, a misleading god. But you are right, in that so many religious folk seem smug about their faith, which is kind of counter intuitive. Smugness almost has an element of neener-neener I have it you don't to it, where I'd argue that a person who's truly religious and in the proper "spirit", so to speak, would feel pity of sympathy to the non-religious without any need for the smarmy bullshit.
Not only do I not need their god, I don't even want it.
And no, I don't believe in it deep down inside. Really. Deep down inside, that's where I digest my food.
Quote from: Tank on January 21, 2012, 08:48:23 PM
Is it just me or do theists continually harp on about how atheists are missing out because we don't suck up to some ancient mythological institutionalised superstition?
To me this god-pushing suggests a sense of insecurity -- a feeling that the belief doesn't, or at least might not, stand on its own so they need to shore it up by having everyone on board. Not just the majority, which they already have, but
everyone.
Daniel Dennet once wrote that to religious people, giving up religion was akin to asking someone to give up music. IE, let's say a scientific study discovers that listening to music is harmful to your health, and that people should stop listening to music. How many of us would actually do that? It's an irrational action to continue listening, but many of us (myself included) would because it's so important to us on an emotional level. That was the closest explanation someone ever gave me to why religious people feel so strongly about their religion and god. Giving it up is akin to letting a part of themselves die emotionally.
To me "believing in god" is like a t.v series I couldn't get into.
I need a god .... just like I need another nipple that doesn't work on my chest.
If god were to disappear, how would we know? That's it, if he's never been here, we wouldn't know either.
And the winner of the 2011 World Hide and Seek championships , for the 2011th year running , is Jesus !.. Jesus couldn't be here to accept his award , as he's already in training for 2012.
Quote from: Ateo on January 21, 2012, 10:07:15 PM
I need a god .... just like I need another nipple that doesn't work on my chest.
If god were to disappear, how would we know? That's it, if he's never been here, we wouldn't know either.
And the winner of the 2011 World Hide and Seek championships , for the 2011th year running , is Jesus !.. Jesus couldn't be here to accept his award , as he's already in training for 2012.
Haha! Brilliant.
Quote from: Tank on January 21, 2012, 08:48:23 PM
Is it just me or do theists continually harp on about how atheists are missing out because we don't suck up to some ancient mythological institutionalised superstition?
I think the TV programme on the BBC last Sunday "Is there any evidence fo God?" was getting on for the last straw for me. The smug Imam sitting there like he owned the fucking world! What an obnoxious little prick. And the Christians were no better. They had nothing to offer but their ingrained belief and faith. Some (most?) didn't even understand what constitutes 'evidence'!
I don't need a bloody God thank you very much! I'm not missing out because I don't hide under a comfort blanket of superstition!
[/rant]
Had a god, got rid of it, am much better off for it.
I wouldn't say I need a god, but I do feel somewhat "emptier" since I shed god.
Of course, that's the stark reality of the universe, and it doesn't mean we should hang on to an irrational security blanket.
I equate it to a child growing up into an adult. When you're a kid, you know your parents are always looking out for you. But when you grow up, they're not there to look out for you anymore. You're responsible for yourself now. But that doesn't mean you should be scared and move back in with mom and dad.
So no...I don't need god, but I see how some people do and how it can make some people feel better.
obviously not. But like a walking aid, using it even if you could walk in the first place, eventually atrophises your walking muscle, disputs you walking coordination and reduces your independence capacity
So the real question is Should "god" be available?
NOT SO FREELY, as with other legislated life substitutes
the imams on that show were definitely pricks, particularly the one that says science has found nothing that contradicts the Qur'an, because the Qur'an is the word of God. So science teaches us that the Earth is flat with seven levels of heaven above it, and the Sun and Moon travel in set trajectories in two of those heavens over said flat Earth, like the Qur'an tells us....
I've got no problem with people believing in sky fairies per se, I think everyone's entitled to their beliefs however factually incorrect or deluded they might be. It becomes my problem when they go around telling everyone their mythology is 'the Truth', or that not believing in their god or not following what their archaic mythological scripture says makes you immoral or 'sinful'.
But as far as the OP goes, I'm with you Tank, as I imagine most of the other folk on HAF are too. My world works fine without any gods, and I don't see any reason to believe in their existence.
I've never had a god, and I can't imagine what I might be missing. Religion today seems no less superstitious nonsense than religions of the Mayans, Aztecs, ancient Romans, or anyone else in our history. How can I possibly miss something that makes no sense, and that equates us to our ignorant forebearers? I was looking at some images from the Hubble telescope the other day. I found myself full of awe at the sheer scope and beauty of the universe. I had a huge "aha" moment about god, wondering how anyone could see the sheer size and wonder of it all, and believe in such a petty being as that described in the bible. Unbelievable.
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, and the result would not be pretty if I did....
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, ant the result would not be pretty if I did....
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, ant the result would not be pretty if I did....
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
a depressive can descibe it best, although paint it in black they must
there is a void within, emptiness also witnessed in meditation
static awareness without thoughts or feelings
if you are not depressive the empty has a reassuring slightly content feel to it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, ant the result would not be pretty if I did....
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
I know when I stopped trying to force belief in god into life's equation my feelings were intense relief, not emptiness, but I think Firebird's post upthread gives a pretty good insight into the empty feeling some atheists have. Giving up god for some people is like what giving up music would be for most of us -- it can be done, but not easily or willingly and there'd be a gaping absence afterwards that music used to fill. I think it's mostly an issue for atheists who actually, truly did believe at one point, rather than those of us who never bought into it at all or only tried to believe without success.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 22, 2012, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, ant the result would not be pretty if I did....
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
I know when I stopped trying to force belief in god into life's equation my feelings were intense relief, not emptiness, but I think Firebird's post upthread gives a pretty good insight into the empty feeling some atheists have. Giving up god for some people is like what giving up music would be for most of us -- it can be done, but not easily or willingly and there'd be a gaping absence afterwards that music used to fill. I think it's mostly an issue for atheists who actually, truly did believe at one point, rather than those of us who never bought into it at all or only tried to believe without success.
It does seem that way, although I seem to be an exception to that. I did truly believe, but once I realized it was all smoke and mirrors, I found it easy to let go of all of it and haven't missed it at all. That's not to say I didn't have issues to work through, but feeling like something was missing wasn't one of them.
Quote from: Velma on January 22, 2012, 06:28:38 PM
It does seem that way, although I seem to be an exception to that. I did truly believe, but once I realized it was all smoke and mirrors, I found it easy to let go of all of it and haven't missed it at all. That's not to say I didn't have issues to work through, but feeling like something was missing wasn't one of them.
Then my next guess would be that it's a purely personal idiosyncratic thing and those of us who've been spared it can thank whatever we're inclinded to thank. I go for blind luck myself.
(by the way, love your quote from Carl Sagan)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 22, 2012, 05:46:35 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 22, 2012, 03:09:34 PM
I need a god about as much as I need a pink thong.
Have no desire or use for it, ant the result would not be pretty if I did....
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
I know when I stopped trying to force belief in god into life's equation my feelings were intense relief, not emptiness, but I think Firebird's post upthread gives a pretty good insight into the empty feeling some atheists have. Giving up god for some people is like what giving up music would be for most of us -- it can be done, but not easily or willingly and there'd be a gaping absence afterwards that music used to fill. I think it's mostly an issue for atheists who actually, truly did believe at one point, rather than those of us who never bought into it at all or only tried to believe without success.
That's kinda pathetic. Sorry :<
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
Imagine losing a loved-one. Is "emptiness" even strong enough as a term? Losing something or someone important can make one feel empty. It's no surprise that you don't understand, just as you might not understand what a particular person feels at a funeral. But you understand the concept.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 03:37:07 PM
I also don't understand the empty feeling ex-religious people get. Why empty?
Been there, done that. Really, to me it was the same feeling of homesickness a lot of my ESL students say they feel -- they've been displaced from their countries of origin for several different reasons, they've been ripped away from family and community, as well as from a way of life, way of thinking, and even a language that they've been comfortable with all of their lives, and they can't return to it anymore. They're out of their element. Nothing's predictable because they haven't yet acclimated to the new territory, they feel vulnerable, and don't have the support system in place that they used to.
Leaving a belief system you once sincerely believed in is a lot like that. In many cases, you feel a strong paradigm shift, so much so that you realize you'll PROBABLY never be able to return to what you once new. Not only is something you used to draw emotional comfort from gone, but what you thought you 'knew' intellectually is also gone, and on top of that, you have family and friends who now disagree with you or may give up on you entirely and no longer speak to you. Your church community, which was once a possible strong social aspect in your life, is gone, and you're no longer welcome among the community who used to greet you so warmly. And finally, if it's a brand new deconversion, you only know what you DON'T, or CAN'T believe, and you haven't yet had the opportunity to fill your life with new ideas, new communities, etc. It's a scary time, and a scary place to be in. It's the feeling of 'I don't know anyone around me who understands me and accepts me for who I am, and I don't know where I fit in.'
As an aside:
This is why you see some atheists reverting BACK to the faith they left behind -- even if the faith intellectuall no longer makes sense, they try to force themselves to believe it again, or at least fake belief successfully enough that nobody else will notice ;) because they want to be 'a part of the family' again. I know that most of us who live in developed, modern cities find this reversion backwards sad... but not everyone is in a community where there ARE secular groups/people to welcome them in and make them feel at home. Sometimes, being an atheist means you'll get arrested, or ostracized, or worse, killed, in some parts of the world. In those cases, it's not surprising to me when people return to what they knew before. It's not easy being alone, and humans are generally social creatures.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 08:34:34 PM
That's kinda pathetic. Sorry :<
I really don't think it is. There are some people who were brought up atheist or at least non-religious and don't think twice about it. But there are others who were brought up religious. I mean can you imagine I wanted to be a priest for about 3 years? I went to 12 years of Catholic school. Everything I did, family or social, was tied to Catholicism. So shedding it does make me feel somewhat empty. Hopefully it's only a temporary emptiness.
Although I can't speak for everybody, it generally seems that those who weren't brought up with god say they don't need him, while those who were say they do...or at least, they feel that something isn't there that was there previously.
Like I said before, that's not a reason for us to revert back to faith. But it is, nonetheless, a feeling.
Quote from: Thunder Road on January 22, 2012, 10:53:59 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 08:34:34 PM
That's kinda pathetic. Sorry :<
I really don't think it is. There are some people who were brought up atheist or at least non-religious and don't think twice about it. But there are others who were brought up religious. I mean can you imagine I wanted to be a priest for about 3 years? I went to 12 years of Catholic school. Everything I did, family or social, was tied to Catholicism. So shedding it does make me feel somewhat empty. Hopefully it's only a temporary emptiness.
Although I can't speak for everybody, it generally seems that those who weren't brought up with god say they don't need him, while those who were say they do...or at least, they feel that something isn't there that was there previously.
Like I said before, that's not a reason for us to revert back to faith. But it is, nonetheless, a feeling.
Another way I imagine it is considering how one gender could relate to another about having some radical surgery to remove a gender-related body part. It would be hard for me to understand what having a hysterectomy or mastectomy would be like, since I've never had a uterus or breasts. But women who have had such surgeries typically feel a significant loss. I can understand that from a conceptual standpoint, but since that is not part of my experience, it's difficult to really understand the feeling. But other women wouldn't have any such difficulty. Maybe that's not a great example, but that would be one way to understand how a person losing his religion might feel.
You can give all the examples you want. I never felt the loss, so I wont understand. Kinda pointless to keep attempting to compare it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 23, 2012, 03:16:49 AM
You can give all the examples you want. I never felt the loss, so I wont understand. Kinda pointless to keep attempting to compare it.
I don't care whether or not you understand it, but calling another member's experiences "pathetic" really set me off. That's all.
I'm sorry I snapped. Now I need to go to confession. lol
Quote from: Thunder Road on January 23, 2012, 03:26:43 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 23, 2012, 03:16:49 AM
You can give all the examples you want. I never felt the loss, so I wont understand. Kinda pointless to keep attempting to compare it.
I don't care whether or not you understand it, but calling another member's experiences "pathetic" really set me off. That's all.
I have to agree. I don't think it's fair to minimize someone's feelings that way. Heck, I greatly admire atheists who stand up for themselves in the face of their religious family and social structure. I was extremely fortunate to have grown up in a secular environment where I can express my beliefs freely, but not every atheist comes from a background like that. To stand up for your beliefs in that way and go against your family and friends is not an easy thing to do.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 23, 2012, 03:16:49 AM
You can give all the examples you want. I never felt the loss, so I wont understand. Kinda pointless to keep attempting to compare it.
OK, I was just trying to communicate.
Quote from: Firebird on January 23, 2012, 03:54:57 AM
I have to agree. I don't think it's fair to minimize someone's feelings that way. Heck, I greatly admire atheists who stand up for themselves in the face of their religious family and social structure. I was extremely fortunate to have grown up in a secular environment where I can express my beliefs freely, but not every atheist comes from a background like that. To stand up for your beliefs in that way and go against your family and friends is not an easy thing to do.
This. To date, I've had one family member 'wash their hands' of me, another verbally tell me they've 'given up on' me, a parent cut off regular contact, "friends" who said they 'needed to move on"/"not know" me anymore, etc etc... all because I explained my beliefs to them. Now, in another post, I said I was lucky to have family and friends who mostly supported me during this process. And that's very true. I'm REALLY fortunate and lucky to have them. But it's certainly not unanimous support across the board, and I've accepted that as all part of what it means to be honest with myself.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2012, 12:24:29 AM
...Another way I imagine it is considering how one gender could relate to another about having some radical surgery to remove a gender-related body part. It would be hard for me to understand what having a hysterectomy or mastectomy would be like, since I've never had a uterus or breasts. But women who have had such surgeries typically feel a significant loss. I can understand that from a conceptual standpoint, but since that is not part of my experience, it's difficult to really understand the feeling. But other women wouldn't have any such difficulty. Maybe that's not a great example, but that would be one way to understand how a person losing his religion might feel.
I must be weird. I've never been religious, so I don't feel the emptiness of being an atheist.
And on the issue, I've had a hysterectomy, oopherectomy, and bilateral mastectomy. And I very rarely feel any sense of loss at all. In fact, I tended to think of the positive changes, rather than focus on the negatives. I never wanted children, so that wasn't an issue. Hysterectomy simply meant my pesky periods (mine were really, really bad) were gone. It was a huge relief. As for the mastectomy, cancer sucks. The fear of it, the treatment of it, and the massive complications I've suffered from surgery, chemo and rads suck. But losing my breasts? I feel joy at never having to wear a bra again. I feel joy at never having to worry about whether a man is talking to ME or to my breasts. I feel relief, mostly. No more breast tissue (or only miniscule amounts) in which to grow more cancer. No bouncing when I run. No bras. Woohoooo!!! :)
That said, I do understand your point. And I know that I've never been a very average or normal person, so my reactions may not be the norm. But I wonder if our reactions to change, whether by our own volition or through disease or accident or whatever else is out of our control ... I wonder if our reactions have more to do with our fundamental personality, rather than with what the change is. I guess I'm just adaptable that way.
Whatever the reasons, hugs to all of you who've deconverted and are feeling lost or alone. We're here for you, and I hope that you can find peace in your new world view.
There are leaves in my gutters again.
I need to get them out, again.
If god could do the job, it could be construed I need him.
I don't think he will, I think I need a ladder and gloves.
Quote from: Amicale on January 23, 2012, 06:28:07 AM
But it's certainly not unanimous support across the board, and I've accepted that as all part of what it means to be honest with myself.
That's been true for me as well, of so many revelations in my life. I was way fortunate that in most cases the rule of "those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter" applied. In any case, honesty is much less ulcer producing than living in any kind of closet, and my sincere sympathies go to those who truly don't have a good choice.
Quote from: Traveler on January 24, 2012, 09:08:34 PM
oopherectomy
What is?
QuoteBut I wonder if our reactions to change, whether by our own volition or through disease or accident or whatever else is out of our control ... I wonder if our reactions have more to do with our fundamental personality, rather than with what the change is.
I now agree with this. I used to think it was a matter of who really believed once but, at least from the responses on this board, that doesn't seem to have all that much impact across the board.
QuoteWhatever the reasons, hugs to all of you who've deconverted and are feeling lost or alone. We're here for you, and I hope that you can find peace in your new world view.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htguide.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_agree.gif&hash=a3cb1805557daeffc1695553003eb0cb83854c9f)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 25, 2012, 12:44:24 AM
There are leaves in my gutters again.
I need to get them out, again.
If god could do the job, it could be construed I need him.
I don't think he will, I think I need a ladder and gloves.
This is no question my favorite of your poems.
Quote from: Traveler on January 25, 2012, 02:09:56 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:37:13 AM
Quote from: Traveler on January 24, 2012, 09:08:34 PM
oopherectomy
What is?
Removal of ovaries. :)
And, oops, I misspelled it. Should be oophorectomy.
Like I would know. But I seem to remember in your intro post you said you were OK now, right? (fingers crossed)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 03:41:35 AM
...But I seem to remember in your intro post you said you were OK now, right? (fingers crossed)
Yep. I get checked every six months (down from every four!!!). Actually, tomorrow I have to have a mole biopsied, but that's hopefully just because they keep me under a microscope now. I'm told its probably nothing, so I'm trying hard to believe them. I spent two weeks around xmas and new year's waiting for biopsy results on a suspicious change to my mastectomy scar, and it turned out to be benign. It's one of the hassles of being a cancer survivor. Every little thing has to be checked out. But, basically, I'm fine, thanks for asking! :)
So glad to hear that you are well now.
Have you ever heard about the resilience gene? I think you must have it, because you have such a healthy adaptable attitude to changes and losses that might be devastating to someone else. I'm kind of a believer in the resilience gene. I noticed that the trait (resilience) appeared to be passed down through the women on my mom's side of the family long before I ever heard that it could actually be a physical gene that could be passed on in your DNA.
I went through a phase in my late teens and early twenties where I really tried to believe in some sort of religion because I thought that I needed some sort of spirituality to be a whole healthy person. So I guess that implies that I was feeling some sort of emptiness or loss. But over time, I got over it and stopped trying to be someone I wasn't.
Quote from: Ali on January 25, 2012, 10:58:56 PM
I went through a phase in my late teens and early twenties where I really tried to believe in some sort of religion because I thought that I needed some sort of spirituality to be a whole healthy person. So I guess that implies that I was feeling some sort of emptiness or loss. But over time, I got over it and stopped trying to be someone I wasn't.
*Nods*
I think they need to do a psychological/scientific study of some kind that focuses on why teens/people in their early 20s so often use that period of their lives to explore something other than what they were raised with --whether it's a new religion, lack of religion, a new social group, etc. This desire and yearning to explore and 'find one's identity' in terms of trying to embrace a new philosophy is interesting, and so many of us go through it. I guess part of the reason is, we want to be different from our parents to some extent. Or perhaps we're testing the claims that were made to us in childhood to see if they hold, or need revision. Or, possibly, life just gets harder in one's teens and 20s, so we reach out to new/different communities who we hope can help us. It'd be an interesting study, if it hasn't already been done. I keep thinking of the idea that a human's brain isn't fully developed until they're in their early 20s -- maybe this 'trying out something different' philosophically/spiritually is a natural way our brains develop towards maturity, I'm not sure.
I do know that in my teens and very early 20s, I swung like a yo-yo, towards and away from belief. I was fighting hard to figure it out, jumping from one side of the fence to the other... and somewhere along the way, I guess I just got stuck ON the fence, and haven't jumped firmly down onto one side or the other yet. ;)
Eh, I'll give it time. I'm a seeker by nature, and I'm only 26, so I imagine in another 10 years I'll be as different a person as I was when I compare age 16 to now.
Quote from: Amicale on January 25, 2012, 11:13:14 PM
...I think they need to do a psychological/scientific study of some kind that focuses on why teens/people in their early 20s so often use that period of their lives to explore something other than what they were raised with ...
I took a bunch of psychology classes in college, and I recall theories that it was a part of becoming an adult. A normal developmental stage. Of differentiating oneself from one's parents, and learning to be independent. I don't remember details, but if I remember later on I'll poke around a little and see if I can come up with some of them.