Student-organised talk on Sharia law at the University of London cancelled following threats of violence (//http://)
QuoteYesterday evening, a talk on "Sharia Law and Human Rights" organised by the Atheism, Secularism and Humanism Society at Queen Mary, University London, had to be cancelled after threats of violence. The talk was due to be given by Anne Marie Waters of the One Law For All campaign, which campaigns against the use of Sharia in the UK.
The president of the society describes what happened:
"Five minutes before the talk was due to start a man burst into the room holding a camera phone and for some seconds stood filming the faces of all those in the room. He shouted 'listen up all of you, I am recording this, I have your faces on film now, and I know where some of you live', at that moment he aggressively pushed the phone in someone's face and then said 'and if I hear that anything is said against the holy Prophet Muhammad, I will hunt you down.' He then left the room and two members of the audience applauded.
"The same man then began filming the faces of Society members in the foyer and threatening to hunt them down if anything was said about Muhammad, he added that he knew where they lived and would murder them and their families. On leaving the building, he joined a large group of men, seemingly there to support him. We were told by security to stay in the Lecture Theatre for our own safety. On arriving back in the room I became aware that the doors that opened to the outside were still open and that people were still coming in. Several eye witnesses reported that when I was in the foyer a group of men came through the open doors, causing a disruption and making it clear that the room could not be secured. Unfortunately, the lack of security in the lecture theatre meant we and the audience had to leave and a Union representative informed the security that as students' lives had been threatened there was no way that the talk could go ahead.
"This event was supposed to be an opportunity for people of different religions and perspectives to debate, at a university that is supposed to be a beacon of free speech and debate. Only two complaints had been made to the Union prior to the event, and the majority of the Muslim students at the event were incredibly supportive of it going ahead. These threats were an aggressive assault on freedom of speech and the fact that they led to the cancellation of our talk was severely disappointing for all of the religious and non-religious students in the room who wanted to engage in debate."
The police were contacted about the incident and the Society is waiting to hear how their investigation will proceed.
Jenny Bartle, president of the National Federation of Atheist, Humanist and Secular Student Societies (AHS), commented:
"More and more atheist, humanist and secular student societies are forming on campuses across the UK and we deserve the same levels of respect as any other community. Our members have as much right as anyone else to participate in the free inquiry, discussion and debate which should exist in universities. The threats our members have received are both troubling and repugnant and we reject all attempts to counter debate with violence. At the same time, we welcome the support from across faiths that many of our societies experience on campus to help us secure the freedom to have our say, just as we support them in having the freedom to have theirs."
Andrew Copson, Chief Executive of the British Humanist Association gave support to the society:
"The attempted intimidation that this society has experienced is shocking. Free expression, the free exchange of ideas and free debate are hallmarks of an open society; violence and the threat of violence should never be allowed to compromise that, especially in our universities. We will work to support our affiliate society at Queen Mary's and look forward to a speedy police investigation and resolution of this case."
I hope they catch the perp and throw the book at him (prefereable the Koran).
Luckily there is an insane amount of CCTV in London, I wouldn't be surprised if the person who threatened those at the debate with violence is now being monitored.
what an awful story, hopefully he'll be arrested and charged with something
Quote from: Crow on January 19, 2012, 04:08:29 PM
Luckily there is an insane amount of CCTV in London, I wouldn't be surprised if the person who threatened those at the debate with violence is now being monitored.
I hope so. Some people just have to be. ::)
England has Her Majesty's Navy, yes? Get some of them to shell the asshole's car for a few minutes. That ought to get the message across.
Would it be uncouth to call him a miserable fucking cunt?
It's unfortunate that such a small percent of Muslims are able to intimidate like this. I'm curious as to what you all might think the best solution would be to reduce/eliminate the need for Muslims to become militant. Also I'm interested in your crystal ball predictions on the future state of Islamic violence.
I live in the US and am against "the war on terror". It's a "war" that armys can't win. I feel it creates more militant muslims. I read somewhere that the US government brought books teaching violence and jihad into the middle east in order to run out the Russians (going off of memory, could be wrong). If books started this sudden burst of violence, I'm wondering if they can help to stop it. I know that's a very long term and subtle solution, but I think it's a long term goal requiring subtlety.
Obviously this small percent of Muslims have demonstrated their willingness to follow through with violence and we should be concerned in these situations. But I'm wondering what kind of an impact canceling the talk has on "wavering" militant Muslims. Do you think it gave courage to some, now willing to fight, violently, for what they believe in? How realistic would it have been to continue the talk and what would be the impact be on those "wavering" militant Muslims?
Quote from: Genericguy on January 19, 2012, 07:08:46 PM
Obviously this small percent of Muslims have demonstrated their willingness to follow through with violence and we should be concerned in these situations. But I'm wondering what kind of an impact canceling the talk has on "wavering" militant Muslims. Do you think it gave courage to some, now willing to fight, violently, for what they believe in? How realistic would it have been to continue the talk and what would be the impact be on those "wavering" militant Muslims?
I think so.
They should not allow themselves to be censored like this, even if it means going to another medium of debate where the debaters are protected (anonymity, etc.)
Sort of like what happened with the Draw Muhammad day (let censorship have the opposite effect), though it's probably best to leave Muhammad out of this one, and focus more heavily on militant muslims and how ridiculous they are. Going after Muhammad will only alienate other muslims and that isn't ideal.
The level of threat felt by muslims living in western societies to their lifestyle and worldview should be lessened (cultural crusade/jihad), but at the same time things such as Sharia Law can't be tolerated. How that could be done - I have no idea ???
*edited for clarity
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 19, 2012, 07:23:48 PM
The level of threat by muslims living in western societies to their lifestyle and worldview should be lessened (cultural crusade/jihad), but at the same time things such as Sharia Law can't be tolerated. How that could be done - I have no idea ???
It's interesting that you don't see this kind of thing in the US. Immigrants assimilate much more easily in this country than in the UK or other EU countries. Oftentimes, I've read that there's many more job opportunities in the US for immigrants and less xenophobia as well than the EU. Ayaan Hirsi Ali had a lot to say about this as well; while I don't know if I agree with everything she says, it was interesting that she felt the government-supported religious schools in the Netherlands were one reason that immigrants turned inwards to their own communities rather than assimilate into the rest of society there.
What do those of you in the EU/UK feel? Is this accurate?
Communication can often be a problem. In Europe, there are several languages that are not all that high on people's learning list. Other than that, here, attempts are being made at assimilation, and those immigrants who work (Or come here for work in the first place) assimilate well. However, many can sit on their asses for years and get coin from we, the taxpayers. Those people tend to stick with their own kind, form cliques, live by their own laws as much as they can get away with and pretty much spit in the face of the very reasons that brought them here in the first place.
I think our policies need to be more strict and our generosity with coin needs to go.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 19, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Would it be uncouth to call him a miserable fucking cunt?
My dear! I am shocked to the very core by your course language! :o
Quote from: Tank on January 20, 2012, 08:58:42 AM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 19, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Would it be uncouth to call him a miserable fucking cunt?
My dear! I am shocked to the very core by your course language! :o
You haven't heard The Asmo when he was changing tires some years ago on a disgustingly heavy Volvo and the jack sort of... Malfunctioned, no? THAT was a string of curses to behold in wonder! :D
Quote from: Tank on January 20, 2012, 08:58:42 AM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 19, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
Would it be uncouth to call him a miserable fucking cunt?
My dear! I am shocked to the very core by your course language! :o
Oh, but I mean it in the most loving and friendly way possible.
This is why I seriously question whether Islam can ever be integrated into a free society.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 06:22:08 PM
This is why I seriously question whether Islam can every be integrated into a free society.
That's an interesting question. One that for our kids will be far from academic. I did the last year of my degree (2011) in a class of 24 of which only 5 were NOT muslims. I'm quite pleased to say that the guy I got on best with was a Bosnian Muslim. He'd been in the war and had seen comrades killed just a few feet away and had taken his own share of lives. He's a really great guy. There was a Sufi Muslim guy who was just joy on legs. They were a great bunch of people.
There is a very vocal and potentially violent segment of disaffected youth that get a lot of bad press that smears on the majority of Muslims who are just trying to get along.
However the Islamic meme has been very carefully crafted by Mohamed then refined over the centuries and in its worst Saudi/Iranian/Afghanistani/Pakistani guises is an absolute anathema to western civilisation and freedom of expression.
A very difficult problem to even quantify let alone solve.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 06:22:08 PM
This is why I seriously question whether Islam can every be integrated into a free society.
"The bomb was followed by a fatal shooting incident near Oslo at a youth meeting of the Labour Party, which Mr Stoltenberg leads.
Norwegian media said at least four people were killed when a man opened fire indiscriminately.
Police said the suspected gunman had been arrested, TV2 reported.
No group has said they carried out the attacks but police say they believe them to be linked.
Hours after the bomb struck Oslo, officials said some people were still inside the damaged buildings, some of which were on fire."
This is why I seriously question whether Christianity can ever be integrated into a free society.
Edit: added quote from ecurb.
I equally hate all religon and think every society should be secular. If people wanna be religious , do it at home.
sorry
Quote from: Tank on January 22, 2012, 07:26:14 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 06:22:08 PM
This is why I seriously question whether Islam can ever be integrated into a free society.
That's an interesting question. One that for our kids will be far from academic. I did the last year of my degree (2011) in a class of 24 of which only 5 were NOT muslims. I'm quite pleased to say that the guy I got on best with was a Bosnian Muslim. He'd been in the war and had seen comrades killed just a few feet away and had taken his own share of lives. He's a really great guy. There was a Sufi Muslim guy who was just joy on legs. They were a great bunch of people.
There is a very vocal and potentially violent segment of disaffected youth that get a lot of bad press that smears on the majority of Muslims who are just trying to get along.
However the Islamic meme has been very carefully crafted by Mohamed then refined over the centuries and in its worst Saudi/Iranian/Afghanistani/Pakistani guises is an absolute anathema to western civilisation and freedom of expression.
A very difficult problem to even quantify let alone solve.
No question that the majority of Muslims are non-violent. But since the Qur'an seemingly sanctions violence in certain situations, those passages will always be there to incite the most passionate, angry, young male Muslims. At least the violent Old Testament passages have been tempered by the New Testament and by the Christian Reformation, and by Christianity developing along side of the Renaissance and Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution. Islam doesn't have this, and for the most part sees the world as if it were the 8th Century.
Eventually, Jews got tired of the violence of the OT, and Christian violence subsided a great deal after Catholics and Protestants got tired of killing each other (except in Ireland). Islam will, hopefully, just get tired of the bloodshed after a while, but can we wait 100 years for that to happen?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 22, 2012, 09:20:27 PM
Eventually, Jews got tired of the violence of the OT, and Christian violence subsided a great deal after Catholics and Protestants got tired of killing each other (except in Ireland). Islam will, hopefully, just get tired of the bloodshed after a while, but can we wait 100 years for that to happen?
I would use the general decline in violence from the other religions as a forecast for Islam.
I think Islam will get there eventually. Of course, there is the issue of nuclear weapons that exist now...
But then again there is a segment of poltical Christians who have said that if they had to detonate a few nuclear weapons to bring the apocolypse and the second coming of christ, then they would.
So...
There are fanatics on every side. ::)
On a side note, I think the internet will have a lot to do with it. Although it's filled with B.S., it makes information more easily accessible.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2012, 09:29:06 PM
I think Islam will get there eventually. Of course, there is the issue of nuclear weapons that exist now...
Right. So we really can't afford to wait, can we?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2012, 09:29:06 PM
I think Islam will get there eventually. Of course, there is the issue of nuclear weapons that exist now...
Right. So we really can't afford to wait, can we?
Any attempt to directly intervene might escalate the problem (forced westernisation might be seen as cultural crusading and will be resisted), but yes, the more we wait for Islam to catch up, the more time there would be for a potential disaster.
I'm curious to see what's going to happen in the near future with the Arab Spring and all. A moment of theocracy is to be expected with the power vacuum that the dictators have left, but hopefully they'll reach some form of democratic secular governments soon.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 22, 2012, 09:31:39 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2012, 09:29:06 PM
I think Islam will get there eventually. Of course, there is the issue of nuclear weapons that exist now...
Right. So we really can't afford to wait, can we?
That is the biggest problem. With Egypt going fundamentalist in the recent elections and the Persians (Iranians) developing nuclear weapons right next door to Isreal on the one side and Pakistan on the other (Sunni/Shia issues) things are definitly looking interesting.
Sex drugs and rocknroll can deal with any fucking religious society and wash it out. Insatiable hypersexed barbarella-geishas instead of smart bombs. FUCK YOUR WAY TO PEACE, like saying make love and not war
the majority of muslims are not peaceful! they are sheep as the majority of the world
when in rome one owes to behave like a roman!
what the fuck they cannot assimilate? the chosen country's language not on the priority list?
Do it at home, ditto. There is no other alternative.
In the general public, the ( ok one preferable) natural progression is minimised rule as you increase understanding, secular and pretty bloody liberal in the moral sense.
I am personally insulted at a public religious broadcast. its blasphemy to our human nature, preventing us from owing our capacities and being responsible for our crawling in the mud. it's also a direct insult to my perception and intelligence.
Allow nearly anything, but strictly enforce the limit
Quote from: pytheas on January 23, 2012, 08:06:38 AM
Sex drugs and rocknroll can deal with any fucking religious society and wash it out. Insatiable hypersexed barbarella-geishas instead of smart bombs. FUCK YOUR WAY TO PEACE, like saying make love and not war
the majority of muslims are not peaceful! they are sheep as the majority of the world
when in rome one owes to behave like a roman!
what the fuck they cannot assimilate? the chosen country's language not on the priority list?
Do it at home, ditto. There is no other alternative.
In the general public, the ( ok one preferable) natural progression is minimised rule as you increase understanding, secular and pretty bloody liberal in the moral sense.
I am personally insulted at a public religious broadcast. its blasphemy to our human nature, preventing us from owing our capacities and being responsible for our crawling in the mud. it's also a direct insult to my perception and intelligence.
Allow nearly anything, but strictly enforce the limit
I always thought sheep were quite peaceful? And in my experience on a day-to-day basis Muslims are just people trying to get along.
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2012, 08:18:05 AM
I always thought sheep were quite peaceful? And in my experience on a day-to-day basis Muslims are just people trying to get along.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0779982/
Quote from: Asmodean on January 23, 2012, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2012, 08:18:05 AM
I always thought sheep were quite peaceful? And in my experience on a day-to-day basis Muslims are just people trying to get along.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0779982/
LOL. Not surprising that was made in NZ :D
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsteffmetal.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2F63BlackSheepDM_468x290jpg.jpg&hash=1b8f46c8d4f0a13cd8c60ad0b54b7df8cf2b22b2)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gorestruly.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2Fbsheep1b.jpg&hash=792a1543fcf273031041b6f84fe633157fc29080)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dreadcentral.com%2Fimg%2Fdvdgraphics2%2Fblacksheepbig.jpg&hash=ec376c426e1fa793bbdf4130c98f93b0246f1b8c)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages2.fanpop.com%2Fimages%2Fphotos%2F7000000%2FBlack-Sheep-horror-movies-7083685-1600-1200.jpg&hash=e4f2d61df235f828d3a575ab113f83e8fa063cfe)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmichaelmay.us%2F08blog%2F0211_blacksheep.jpg&hash=eb51f26507d800fc2e8c1dab3d7ee4937bedb320)
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2012, 08:18:05 AM
I always thought sheep were quite peaceful? And in my experience on a day-to-day basis Muslims are just people trying to get along.
not if bitten by a wasp or a horse-fly
not if Ram boils over in a sex-hormone surge elicited by pherormones
your day to day experience describes people as they are everywhere. I just object, your honour, to the additional, self-imposed, discrimination of whatever bullshit you need to imagine to jerk-off happily along. As i object to masturbators spanking at my face while i go to work in the morning (with pigeons what can you do?....) thus i am vexed by public preaching , door to door or otherwise, and the sound of the imam trying to beat with loudphones and amplifiers the sound of bells.
In egypt, back in 1994, I was struck by the importance Allah had in the lives of some locals. It was adamantly connected to the destitude, poverty and dead-end existence they saw as inevitable.they grew vegetables and had pet goats and hens in appartment blocks to supplement their ridiculous wages. Allah makes you less hungry.
however some other locals, hiding in paravans in seedy bars, sipped their arak with their waterpipe in the mornings of the ramadan, and there was some hustling in the corner 11:00 am
they were dressed like the man from panama... which costed more than the qelebia.
Lets face it , a good priest brings the "bacon" home, and god is the cash
since the romans we suck up to Mammon, you and me and everyone, shamelessly
they(religious feverish folk) make-do with lesser priests that mesmerize them in forgetting the "bacon" they don't get.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 23, 2012, 08:27:40 AM
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2012, 08:18:05 AM
I always thought sheep were quite peaceful? And in my experience on a day-to-day basis Muslims are just people trying to get along.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0779982/
LOL!
Made in NZ but might as well be here in southern Brazil.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsteffmetal.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F07%2F63BlackSheepDM_468x290jpg.jpg&hash=1b8f46c8d4f0a13cd8c60ad0b54b7df8cf2b22b2)
Sheep throwing a tantrum. :D
;D But this thread is getting derailed, so to keep it on track....
:-X