I hope this room is appropriate for my post and if not, I apologize.
As my Addy indicates, Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter...but im in a search-mode for the truth as I go along my journey. I would like to posit a few questions regarding Theism for a better understanding and to see how you as a Theist respond to some scrutiny which I shall put forth. As required by this Forum, I will be looking for substantiation to any points you make . Thank you for your consideration to the following :
1. What is THE top (singular) compelling scientific empirical evidence for the biblical Creator having created our Universe ?
2. If this biblical Creator exists, how can One be certain that the efforts put forth by an individual via prayer (primarily) , are getting thru and what confirmation is there ?
3. Speaking honestly, what is the biggest problem/difficulty you personally have (have had) regarding any aspect of the Christian Faith ?
Thank you.
You should also try posting this on a serious Christian forum, or several. Try a catholic forum, along with a Methodist, baptist, or any other decent ones you can find. Some catholic universities have forums that would welcome these inquiries.
Then compare those answers with what you get here.
Quote from: McQ on January 18, 2012, 04:05:49 PM
You should also try posting this on a serious Christian forum, or several. Try a catholic forum, along with a Methodist, baptist, or any other decent ones you can find. Some catholic universities have forums that would welcome these inquiries.
Then compare those answers with what you get here.
Good point. Thanks. For the time being, Id like to see if there are any Theists in this Forum who can give cogent answers with adequate support.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
1. What is THE top (singular) compelling scientific empirical evidence for the biblical Creator having created our Universe ?
That there was a beginning. I'm not certain I need to provide empirical evidence for this.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist2. If this biblical Creator exists, how can One be certain that the efforts put forth by an individual via prayer (primarily) , are getting thru and what confirmation is there ?
There is no manner in which to prove this. It is only through personal experience.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist3. Speaking honestly, what is the biggest problem/difficulty you personally have (have had) regarding any aspect of the Christian Faith ?
I "hate" that the Christian must be looked down upon...that there is enough evidence TO believe and yet there's plenty or more evidence to disbelieve. I understand that there is a two-fold reason. That it is by faith we believe and so continually seek and that this separates those who want something more vs those who are content with this life and all it holds as reward.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
1. What is THE top (singular) compelling scientific empirical evidence for the biblical Creator having created our Universe ?
Not a Christian perspective, but I'll answer. Bored, you see...
Asmo's Razor: Do not attribute to the supernatural any part of that, which can be found in nature.
There is no scientific evidence for intelligence behind the creation of the Universe. The fact that it was created in itself does not point to a creator being any more than it does to a creator process.
Quote
2. If this biblical Creator exists, how can One be certain that the efforts put forth by an individual via prayer (primarily) , are getting thru and what confirmation is there ?
Placebo effect is real... The rest is hopes and wishes and smoke and mirrors.
You can not be certain that the biblical creator listens until you have demonstrated at least two things conclusively: one, that such a creator exists and two, that he/she/it gives enough of a fuck to stay in earshot and actually listen.
Quote
3. Speaking honestly, what is the biggest problem/difficulty you personally have (have had) regarding any aspect of the Christian Faith ?
That it has done nothing to broaden our understanding of the universe while pretending to provide its followers with the answers to the "big questions".
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter...
Why ask questions specific to Christianity when in pursuit of truth? Are you finding more "truth" in Christianity opossed to other religions? Are you going to continue after this thread is over with questions for muslims, buddhists, hindus, ect.? If you are coming from an atheistic point of view then they all are equally untrue. I understand that your reason might be because the majority of theists on this forum are Christian, but does that mean its more true than the other religions and deserves more attention?
Quote from: Asmodean on January 18, 2012, 05:36:22 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
1. What is THE top (singular) compelling scientific empirical evidence for the biblical Creator having created our Universe ?
Not a Christian perspective, but I'll answer. Bored, you see...
Asmo's Razor: Do not attribute to the supernatural any part of that, which can be found in nature.
There is no scientific evidence for intelligence behind the creation of the Universe. The fact that it was created in itself does not point to a creator being any more than it does to a creator process.
Quote
2. If this biblical Creator exists, how can One be certain that the efforts put forth by an individual via prayer (primarily) , are getting thru and what confirmation is there ?
Placebo effect is real... The rest is hopes and wishes and smoke and mirrors.
You can not be certain that the biblical creator listens until you have demonstrated at least two things conclusively: one, that such a creator exists and two, that he/she/it gives enough of a fuck to stay in earshot and actually listen.
.............
Ive heard all the atheist guff and slander before which is why i addressed the Post Heading to seasoned Theists looking for their insight.
Quote from: Genericguy on January 18, 2012, 06:58:48 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter...
Why ask questions specific to Christianity when in pursuit of truth? Are you finding more "truth" in Christianity opossed to other religions? Are you going to continue after this thread is over with questions for muslims, buddhists, hindus, ect.? If you are coming from an atheistic point of view then they all are equally untrue. I understand that your reason might be because the majority of theists on this forum are Christian, but does that mean its more true than the other religions and deserves more attention?
Because Christianity claims itself to be true . I dont know yet . Yes, i think I shall . How do you know they are all 'equally untrue' ... please provide objective evidence to back this up per the Forum Rules. Right now , i wish to analyze Christianity closer by presenting to Christians what i see as difficulties (which may or may not be in the final analysis .
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true
Yes... So does the vast majority of lies.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 18, 2012, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true
Yes... So does the vast majority of lies.
Assuming Christianity is in fact, a total lie. Anyone who has an apriori-philosophical militant bias toward anothers Religion or ideology can SAY that...but I hope you will provide independent supportive evidence as to your previous statement that : All Religions are untrue (lies) .... other than you needing them to be.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true .
And you find this DIFFERENT than other religions?
Quote from: Asmodean on January 18, 2012, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true
Yes... So does the vast majority of lies.
Quoted for truth. ;D 99% of of religions claim to be the true and only one or only way.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Quote from: Genericguy on January 18, 2012, 06:58:48 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
Im somewhat of a struggling Atheist in my pursuit of seeking truth and am no longer concretely committed to atheism or any other religious worldview for that matter...
Why ask questions specific to Christianity when in pursuit of truth? Are you finding more "truth" in Christianity opossed to other religions? Are you going to continue after this thread is over with questions for muslims, buddhists, hindus, ect.? If you are coming from an atheistic point of view then they all are equally untrue. I understand that your reason might be because the majority of theists on this forum are Christian, but does that mean its more true than the other religions and deserves more attention?
Because Christianity claims itself to be true . I dont know yet . Yes, i think I shall . How do you know they are all 'equally untrue' ... please provide objective evidence to back this up per the Forum Rules. Right now , i wish to analyze Christianity closer by presenting to Christians what i see as difficulties (which may or may not be in the final analysis .
Uh... Every religion claims itself to be true. Are you biased because you were raised Christian? Muslim, Hinduism, Catholics, Jewish, Mormons all claim to be the 'true path. '
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:39:43 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true .
And you find this DIFFERENT than other religions?
I havent made that definitive conclusion yet. Have you ? If so, please show objectively why Christianity is false and/or why the rest of the World Religions are as this will help in my research. thanks.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:39:35 PM
Assuming Christianity is in fact, a total lie.
I have made no such assumption. The best of lies contain some truth - makes them more believable.
Religion, however, is hardly the best of lies.
QuoteAll Religions are untrue (lies) .... other than you needing them to be.
Not my statement, but ok. Religions present the existence gods, souls and other supernatural beings and life after death, to name a few more or less common denominators, as facts. Facts, they are not. So, presenting that which is not a fact as one (especially knowingly doing so) is, by definition, a lie.
Let's keep the topic to the OP. We have other threads for arguing against christian beliefs. This thread, in my opinion at least, is a legit way to get dialogue going between theists/christians and SA. Please leave it to that.
Thanks.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:45:03 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:39:43 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:23:42 PM
Because Christianity claims itself to be true .
And you find this DIFFERENT than other religions?
I havent made that definitive conclusion yet. Have you ? If so, please show objectively why Christianity is and/or why the rest of the World Religions are as this will help in my research. thanks.
If you're truely researching other world religions (except if you're wanting to feel more like your local community, in which case, it's Christianity) then go for it.
However it's not up to an atheist to disprove god(s) or any negative claim. You can't disprove a negative.
I personally don't deny a possibility of a god or gods existing, but theistic gods look too human too me. A supermind in the abstract realm rather than the white-bearded Zeus rip off (superman). As for deistic gods, I can't with enough certainty say that they don't exist.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 18, 2012, 07:48:13 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:39:35 PM
Assuming Christianity is in fact, a total lie.
I have made no such assumption. The best of lies contain some truth - makes them more believable.
Religion, however, is hardly the best of lies.
QuoteAll Religions are untrue (lies) .... other than you needing them to be.
Not my statement, but ok. Religions present the existence gods, souls and other supernatural beings and life after death, to name a few more or less common denominators, as facts. Facts, they are not. So, presenting that which is not a fact as one (especially knowingly doing so) is, by definition, a lie.
1. Does your statement above also pertain to the Religion of Secular Humanism which the U.S. Government formally recognizes as a religion , and, which the Humanist Free Inquiry Magazines writer (Dr. Paul Kurtz) calls a religion ?
2. What leads you to believe with all certainty that there isnt an infinite , eternal, personal transcendent Being for the personal and intelligent components we readily see in our modern day reality ? (This is one of the difficulties I see with atheism as a worldview) . How do you know that it is 'a fact' that such a Being doesnt exist making the particular theistic Religion a lie ? Is it because only seeing is believing ? Would you be willing to conclude that elephant dung found in your backyard along with huge footprints , wasnt from an elephant because you didnt see it squat and unload ? ...lol...
Elephant dung + foot prints = elephant. We can conclude that because elephants EXIST.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
I would like to posit a few questions regarding Theism for a better understanding and to see how you as a Theist respond to some scrutiny which I shall put forth.
You have yet to to provide scrutiny for theism and have provided plenty for atheism. The OP is just a ploy to promote Christianity in my opinion.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 08:08:27 PM
1. Does your statement above also pertain to the Religion of Secular Humanism which the U.S. Government formally recognizes as a religion , and, which the Humanist Free Inquiry Magazines writer (Dr. Paul Kurtz) calls a religion ?
The statement applies to any system of belief in the supernatural that presents the existence of that supernatural as fact. If Secular Humanists do, then certainly, yes.
That said, I'm not from the US, so I don't give a flying duck what the US government recognises as what.
THAT said, are you reading into my words something that just isn't there?
QuoteWhat leads you to believe with all certainty that there isnt an infinite , eternal, personal transcendent Being for the personal and intelligent components we readily see in our modern day reality ?
Why the space before the question marks, commas and the dots?
Oh, and I'm throwing this one right the fuck back at you. Where in my last reply to you did I state or imply that I "believe with all certainty that there isnt an infinite , eternal, personal transcendent Being for the personal and intelligent components we readily see in our modern day reality"?
Quote
How do you know that it is 'a fact' that such a Being doesnt exist making the particular theistic Religion a lie ?
Abrahamic god is bullshit. McQ is slightly unhappy with this derail, so you can find a buttload of whys here in the religion section.
QuoteIs it because only seeing is believing ?
Absolutely not! Visual input needs to be questioned and analysed when the results of it are unexpected.
Quote
Would you be willing to conclude that elephant dung found in your backyard along with huge footprints , wasnt from an elephant because you didnt see it squat and unload ? ...lol...
How about you stop trying to bullshit your way through yet another thread..? I'm trying to figure out how you even managed to read all that crap out of my replies to you... ::)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 08:25:12 PM
Elephant dung + foot prints = elephant. We can conclude that because elephants EXIST.
Though if it happened in my back garden I would be like what the fuck happened here and have no clue what did it, as I don't know enough about excrement to determine if it was elephant dung and an elephant would most likely be the last thing on my mind even if there was a footprint as I don't live in a country where elephants are native, with the nearest zoo being 38 miles away.
Quote from: Crow on January 18, 2012, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 08:25:12 PM
Elephant dung + foot prints = elephant. We can conclude that because elephants EXIST.
Though if it happened in my back garden I would be like what the fuck happened here and have no clue what did it, as I don't know enough about excrement to determine if it was elephant dung and an elephant would most likely be the last thing on my mind even if there was a footprint as I don't live in a country where elephants are native, with the nearest zoo being 38 miles away.
If I saw an elephant shitting in my living room, I'd call it hallucination, eat a few pills and see if that make problem go away. If there was just the dung and the footprints, I'd suspect a prank.
Too many smores and poptarts. *rolls back to sleep*
Definitely a prank xD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 08:40:17 PM
Too many smores and poptarts. *rolls back to sleep*
Definitely a prank xD
I don't know. Do you remember that nut in the US who released a whole zooful of animals before killing himself? Took days to round them all up again (and I don't know if all were recaptured) and some travelled a good ways. I've seen enough nature shows to recognize an elephant footprint so if I saw an elephant footprint and a huge pile of dung anywhere in or around my home, I'd start wondering if some other zookeeper had flipped his lid.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 08:25:12 PM
Elephant dung + foot prints = elephant. We can conclude that because elephants EXIST.
And even if we haven't ever seen one, plenty of other people have and there are photos of them and their footprints (and probably their dung) all over the place. Most of us live within driving distance of a zoo that keeps an elephant. Can't really say that about any religions deity, except of course the pantheists.
Quote from: SAWhat leads you to believe with all certainty that there isnt an infinite , eternal, personal transcendent Being for the personal and intelligent components we readily see in our modern day reality ? (This is one of the difficulties I see with atheism as a worldview) . How do you know that it is 'a fact' that such a Being doesnt exist making the particular theistic Religion a lie ?
You seem to be hung up on certainty, even after being told by a number of atheists (altho not all, true), in a number of threads, that we are
not certain, that we don't know for a fact that such a being doesn't exist. You also don't seem to have grasped the concept that the burden of proof in on the person making the claim that X exists, not the person saying "I don't see this X of yours". And that is what we do know, that the burden of proof regarding any gods existence has not been satisfied, and therefore belief in a god is a matter of personal faith not fact.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 07:18:21 PM
Ive heard all the atheist guff and slander before which is why i addressed the Post Heading to seasoned Theists looking for their insight.
Um...let's not throw words such as "slander" around lightly...
Wow. Nice to know that people pay no attention when a Mod requests that they behave. ::)
Back to the OP
Quote from: Genericguy on January 18, 2012, 08:30:27 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
I would like to posit a few questions regarding Theism for a better understanding and to see how you as a Theist respond to some scrutiny which I shall put forth.
You have yet to to provide scrutiny for theism and have provided plenty for atheism. The OP is just a ploy to promote Christianity in my opinion.
You dont read very carefully then. Paranoid OCD can be treated you know.
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 09:48:28 PM
Quote from: Genericguy on January 18, 2012, 08:30:27 PM
Quote from: Struggling Atheist on January 18, 2012, 04:02:30 PM
I would like to posit a few questions regarding Theism for a better understanding and to see how you as a Theist respond to some scrutiny which I shall put forth.
You have yet to to provide scrutiny for theism and have provided plenty for atheism. The OP is just a ploy to promote Christianity in my opinion.
You dont read very carefully then. Paranoid OCD can be treated you know.
Thread locked. Warning given to SA. It would have gone to the next person who continued to act like a child and continue to ignore the original request to knock off the bullshit.