should they or should they not be illegal?
i do not use marijuana, but personally i believe it should be legal for consumption by adults. obviously it should be a controlled substance similar to alcohol (no smoking and driving etc.) but what about hard drugs like cocaine, heroine, meth etc?
i was thinking the other day and maybe i am incorrect, but think about drugs that aren't illegal. nicotine, caffeine and alcohol.
let's stick with nicotine as i am familiar with it (i use it). a nicotine addict, be it a smoker, chewer, or anything else, is constantly needing a fix throughout the day, i can personally say it is incredibly addictive and going without it for more then about an hour or two is pure hell. however, nicotine since it is legal and regulated by the govt. poses no real threat to the publics well being and only to the addict (minus secondhand smoke, but that is besides the point). there are no crimes commited due to people being "druggies" and having to secretly manufacture, sell, or obtain tobacco products. however, if tobacco was suddenly outlawed, knowing how powerful this drug is and how addictive it is i could easily see it causing the same issues with crime as any other drug does.
thoughts? anyone?
I'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do they do more harm than good?
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 05:50:53 PM
I'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do the do more harm than good?
depends. some of it depends on genetics. i myself have pledged to NEVER EVER use any drug, any alcohol etc. i have enough problems with nicotine and caffeine. i have addictive personality genes. it runs in my family. i know that if i ever use anything the possibility of me becoming a slave to it is very high. i was suffering withdrawal symptoms from nicotine a few hours after my first cigarette. one puff and i was hooked, ive attempte to quit smoking probably 30 times. my mom is a smoker, my dad is a smoker, my grandma was a smoker, her husband was a smoker etc etc etc. i remember reading somewhere when someone suffers an addiction those genetics can actually be passed on and offspring can have a higher potential of becoming addicted and even already have the circuts created in the brain for those addictions, just waiting to be activated.
drug problems are only really a problem when addiction is involved. but it really depends on people. i know people who smoke occasionally but aren't "smokers". i know people who drink but aren't alcoholics. i know people who smoke weed occasionally but aren't potheads. the problem is people can obtain drugs legal or illegal. the govt regulating certain substances for recreational use could possibly cut way down on the crimes involved with them (from trafficking etc).
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 05:50:53 PMI'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do they do more harm than good?
The other consideration is, how much damage does making these drugs illegal do? How many drug mules would there be if it were legal to transport the drugs? How many violent drug cartels would there be if drugs were legal? How many users, who did nothing but subject themselves to drugs, would there be in jail? Right now, there is a huge problem in my state with violent people trying to protect and sell their drugs, there might be a few more people using the drugs, but there'd be a shit ton fewer deaths from drug battles.
Quote from: Davin on January 11, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 05:50:53 PMI'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do they do more harm than good?
The other consideration is, how much damage does making these drugs illegal do? How many drug mules would there be if it were legal to transport the drugs? How many violent drug cartels would there be if drugs were legal? How many users, who did nothing but subject themselves to drugs, would there be in jail? Right now, there is a huge problem in my state with violent people trying to protect and sell their drugs, there might be a few more people using the drugs, but there'd be a shit ton fewer deaths from drug battles.
this is exactly the point im attempting to make.
Just because something is a drug doesn't mean it is bad...for instance, studies are now showing that coffee, like tea, is actually good for you (in moderation of course). http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-scientific-ways-coffee-gives-you-super-powers/ Even moderate consumption of alcohol may have health benefits (over consumption is of course negative) http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024
The next thing to look at is does it cause harm to society if used as intended as that's the only reason to make something totally illegal.
Cigarettes....can't think of how it is harmful to society once second hand smoke exposure situations are limited to designated areas.
Alcohol....only harmful to society if drunk driving occurs.
Caffeine...no harm to society that I can think of; if anything it helps by making people more alert when driving to work in the morning.
Weed....only harmful to society if high driving occurs.
Alcohol and Caffeine are safe for the individual too as long as they are not abused to the point of addiction.
Weed tends not to be something people get addicted to the point of smoking daily...so on the personal harm level it is safer that Cigarettes.
So...logically, if anything should be illegal of the above as none of them cause immediate harm to society then cigarettes would make more sense than weed.
I think all of the above should be legal as there is really no good argument for them not being so. There are harder drugs that are much easier to make a case for their societal harm as they lead to crime in order to feed the expensive addiction or due to damage to the brain so that the person makes rash decisions.
I don't smoke weed because it is illegal and because I don't care for that feeling. I don't even know if I'd try it again if it were legalized.
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 06:34:01 PM
Just because something is a drug doesn't mean it is bad...for instance, studies are now showing that coffee, like tea, is actually good for you (in moderation of course). http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-scientific-ways-coffee-gives-you-super-powers/ Even moderate consumption of alcohol may have health benefits (over consumption is of course negative) http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024
The next thing to look at is does it cause harm to society if used as intended as that's the only reason to make something totally illegal.
Cigarettes....can't think of how it is harmful to society once second hand smoke exposure situations are limited to designated areas.
Alcohol....only harmful to society if drunk driving occurs.
Caffeine...no harm to society that I can think of; if anything it helps by making people more alert when driving to work in the morning.
Weed....only harmful to society if high driving occurs.
Alcohol and Caffeine are safe for the individual too as long as they are not abused to the point of addiction.
Weed tends not to be something people get addicted to the point of smoking daily...so on the personal harm level it is safer that Cigarettes.
So...logically, if anything should be illegal of the above as none of them cause immediate harm to society then cigarettes would make more sense than weed.
I think all of the above should be legal as there is really no good argument for them not being so. There are harder drugs that are much easier to make a case for their societal harm as they lead to crime in order to feed the expensive addiction or due to damage to the brain so that the person makes rash decisions.
I don't smoke weed because it is illegal and because I don't care for that feeling. I don't even know if I'd try it again if it were legalized.
some "hard" drugs can be potentially useful as well. all of my life i have suffered ADD....and i mean TERRIBLE ADD. i wouldn't have even made it through grade school if it wasn't for amphetamines. (adderal etc). although we may not be talking about medical uses for drugs here i can tell you amphetamines have nearly the same effect on the brain as caffeine does, it only becomes harmful if it is abused without regard to moderation. caffeine can be harmful too. i've had points in my life where i have consumed way too much caffeine for a long period of time (like pots and pots of coffee) to where it had visibly negative effects on my health. i was having PVC's almost daily and felt worn out and strung out all the time. i simply backed off for a few weeks and used more common sense and everything was back to normal. whats wrong and harmful to society if a truck driver uses amphetamines occasionally to get through a long tiring shift? honestly nothing. in fact its helpful because he is not going to fall asleep and kill people on the highway.
of course, things like LSD and other hallucigens are CERTAINLY not safe for ANYONE at ANY time.
Ya, I wasn't talking about medical drugs used as prescribed.
Meth is the most common form of amphetamine drugs on the black market; but it's a drug cocktail of various harsh chemicals plus some of the OTC (now behind the counter) amphetamines...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a truck driver who is on that stuff and if you've ever seen someone tweaking out on the stuff you'd understand why.
Quote from: Davin on January 11, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 05:50:53 PMI'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do they do more harm than good?
The other consideration is, how much damage does making these drugs illegal do? How many drug mules would there be if it were legal to transport the drugs? How many violent drug cartels would there be if drugs were legal? How many users, who did nothing but subject themselves to drugs, would there be in jail? Right now, there is a huge problem in my state with violent people trying to protect and sell their drugs, there might be a few more people using the drugs, but there'd be a shit ton fewer deaths from drug battles.
And that's the flip side of the coin in a nutshell. So there really is no easy answer is there?
The following is based on US law only, as I'm not familiar with laws in other countries:
I've read that the production of the opium derivative used in prescription pain killers such as vicodin, percoset and oxy-contin has more than quintupled in the last few years. Let's not kid ourselves as to the reason that the US is in Afghanistan, one of the world's leading exporters of poppy.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan)
QuoteOpium production in Afghanistan has been on the rise since U.S. occupation started in 2001. Based on UNODC data, there has been more opium poppy cultivation in each of the past four growing seasons (2004–2007) than in any one year during Taliban rule. Also, more land is now used for opium in Afghanistan than for coca cultivation in Latin America. In 2007, 92% of the non-pharmaceutical-grade opiates on the world market originated in Afghanistan.
So the pharmaceutical companies get richer, while the US continues to keep illegal a natural plant that makes you silly. ???
As to whether weed is less harmful than cigarettes, even if used daily, the volume of smoke breathed in to the lungs is far less, because I seriously doubt anyone smokes joints the way they do cigarettes, ie: 20-40 a day. Instead, they may smoke joints 3 or 4 times a day at most. On top of that, there are no added chemicals in weed the way there is for cigarettes.
The whole thing is backwards to me. Cultivation of the plant is illegal even for the myriad uses of hemp (paper, clothing, etc).
Quote from: hismikeness on January 11, 2012, 07:32:08 PM
{snip}
The whole thing is backwards to me. Cultivation of the plant is illegal even for the myriad uses of hemp (paper, clothing, etc).
There is a company in the UK creating a 'drug free' hemp plant that can be cultivated. On a secret test planting somebody figured they'd stumbled on heaven and stoll the lot. Can you imagine them all puffing away furiously and getting no result :D
The drug issue to me is really quite simple when I boil it down. Virtually all drugs including manufactured drugs are safer as far as the physical damage they inflict than most household and certainly industrial cleansing products. As a matter of fact I'm a painter and if someone asked me to do a hit of meth or swig some of my paint thinner I would grudgingly but without debate choose the methamphetamine. So if we look at the dangerous and fatal materials we are able to walk into a wal-mart and buy on daily basis we have to immediately rule out public health as a primary concern for the illegalization of any drug. When you look back at when, how and why certain drugs were illegalized you can almost always attribute them to a political or social agenda. Think about any mainstream illegal drug and then ask yourselves a few key questions about it and you will probably soon discover the root of its illegality lies somewhere far from public health.
#1 – Who stands to profit from its widespread social acceptance and legality or in other words which groups or countries stand to increase their economic power in the world with these drugs legalized.
#2 – Who stands to profit from its illegalization or its remaining illegal.
Think about the money that is tied up in anti drug programs and law enforcement. Think about the state, federal and private prisons that would suffer from decreased inmate population. Also consider the pharmaceutical companies. These companies want control over both helpful and harmful forms of drugs they want to be able to set the price standards and they do not want competition. If a small hit of opium is cheaper and better than or comparable to refined vicodin, why would a very wealthy pharmaceutical company allow legislation to be passed that would allow a competitor like opium poppies to be introduced into the market.
#3 – what does it cause people to do. What sort of psychological/cultural effects does it have on the user and will this affect their alliances to state, country or religion.
Think about both the early uses of MDMA and LSD, then think about the political climates that caused both to become fiercely opposed. Not by Joe America but by larger political interests. Just think back to the scare tactics and blatant lying that had to take place in order to gain public support for the illegalization of marijuana. Think about cigarette smoke, think about how blatant the public health concerns had to be in order for there to be considerable opposition and then look into how deeply America was involved in profiting from the cultivation and sale of tobacco products.
I know that some of this stuff seems all "conspiracy theory" but I am firm on the position that in any discussion about the legality of drugs, public heath should be thrown out as a reason for debate. If public health and safety were of paramount concern. We would not be able to buy poison at the drugstore in the form of bleach, antifreeze, beer, wine, cigarettes or ibuprofen. We would not be able to buy substances that have been demonstrated and proven to cause birth defects, liver disease, cancer, an increase in violence among users and increase in vehicular fatalities among users. Clinical depression and addiction, suicide, infanticide or any of a myriad of public health and safety concerns that are directly associated with things that are readily attainable at any neighborhood drug store.
Loving and hungry people...that's what seems to be the biggest problem of legalizing marijuana.
On the subject of the other hard drugs...I'm not too keen on legalizing.
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 07:09:15 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 11, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 05:50:53 PMI'm not sure. So here's a question. What would the world be like if all 'drugs' were allowed? I'm not sure. However consider the damage that the current legal drugs cause. Would we simply not be letting lose a whole new set of dangers? I like alchohol, tobacco (cigars) and coffee. But I don't use them too often, except possibly coffee. If one considers the three current mass consumption drugs do they do more harm than good?
The other consideration is, how much damage does making these drugs illegal do? How many drug mules would there be if it were legal to transport the drugs? How many violent drug cartels would there be if drugs were legal? How many users, who did nothing but subject themselves to drugs, would there be in jail? Right now, there is a huge problem in my state with violent people trying to protect and sell their drugs, there might be a few more people using the drugs, but there'd be a shit ton fewer deaths from drug battles.
And that's the flip side of the coin in a nutshell. So there really is no easy answer is there?
Definitely is not. Even if we determine that great harm comes from keeping certain drugs illegal, it doesn't necessarily mean that we should make them legal. As much as I feel that everyone should be in control of what they do to their own bodies, I still don't think it's a clear issue and that everything should just be allowed. Anyway, the considerations I brought up were in addition to the considerations you brought up and those aren't even all the considerations I can think of.
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 07:07:31 PMYa, I wasn't talking about medical drugs used as prescribed.
Meth is the most common form of amphetamine drugs on the black market; but it's a drug cocktail of various harsh chemicals plus some of the OTC (now behind the counter) amphetamines...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a truck driver who is on that stuff and if you've ever seen someone tweaking out on the stuff you'd understand why.
I know, one of my friends got ran over by an 18 wheeler being driven by someone on meth, his motorcycle and helmet offered little protection.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 07:54:46 PM
Loving and hungry people...that's what seems to be the biggest problem of legalizing marijuana.
On the subject of the other hard drugs...I'm not too keen on legalizing.
1+
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Femoticons%2Femoticon-object-087.gif&hash=145ba091e1047912d65466b5bc1c280c14e1e616)Drugs, drugs, drugs: which are good, which are bad? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.freesmileys.org%2Femoticons%2Femoticon-object-087.gif&hash=145ba091e1047912d65466b5bc1c280c14e1e616)
http://youtu.be/vhgoXZDA7ig (http://youtu.be/vhgoXZDA7ig)
Quote from: Davin on January 11, 2012, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 07:07:31 PMYa, I wasn't talking about medical drugs used as prescribed.
Meth is the most common form of amphetamine drugs on the black market; but it's a drug cocktail of various harsh chemicals plus some of the OTC (now behind the counter) amphetamines...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a truck driver who is on that stuff and if you've ever seen someone tweaking out on the stuff you'd understand why.
I know, one of my friends got ran over by an 18 wheeler being driven by someone on meth, his motorcycle and helmet offered little protection.
Gosh, that's horrible T__T...
I definitely don't think hard drugs sould ever be legalized, which is sad because it seems drug dealers will always be around, ruining people's lives...
I'm not a fan of weed, but it is kinda stupid thst they are illegal, but not cigarettes,which are just poison sticks. Yargh!! Hate that smell.
Quote from: yepimonfire on January 11, 2012, 06:45:37 PM
of course, things like LSD and other hallucigens are CERTAINLY not safe for ANYONE at ANY time.
What makes you say that? Did you have a bad trip once?
It's one of the most profoundly positive experiences I've ever had. And probably the least harmful, physically, of all drugs.
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 06:34:01 PM
Cigarettes....can't think of how it is harmful to society once second hand smoke exposure situations are limited to designated areas.
It costs the british tax-payer millions in keeping the selfish (smokers) alive.
Alcohol....only harmful to society if drunk driving occurs.
Caffeine...no harm to society that I can think of; if anything it helps by making people more alert when driving to work in the morning.
Weed....only harmful to society if high driving occurs.
Alcohol and Caffeine are safe for the individual too as long as they are not abused to the point of addiction.
Weed tends not to be something people get addicted to the point of smoking daily...so on the personal harm level it is safer that Cigarettes.
So...logically, if anything should be illegal of the above as none of them cause immediate harm to society then cigarettes would make more sense than weed.
I think all of the above should be legal as there is really no good argument for them not being so. There are harder drugs that are much easier to make a case for their societal harm as they lead to crime in order to feed the expensive addiction or due to damage to the brain so that the person makes rash decisions.
I don't smoke weed because it is illegal and because I don't care for that feeling. I don't even know if I'd try it again if it were legalized.
Cigarettes cost the british tax-payer millions in keeping smokers alive. And with a health system at breaking point, it's an unnecessary burden. I look forward to the law which limits access for smokers/compulsive eaters/drinkers to the health service. Only this week was reported that the obese are being denied certain services if they refuse to stop eating. Bravo to the unPC managers who were brave enough to start making a stand. I back this all the way.
Alcohol addiction is a huge societal problem - exacerbated by a welfare system that pays for the alcohol that keeps the lazy from getting a job. Not to mention associated health issues with the same problems as stated above.
Marijuana is EXACTLY something people get addicted to the point of smoking daily. I've seen it up close. I can tell you from personal experience that there are long term negative effects from prolonged use of this drug. I don't smoke it now because it does nothing positive for me - The fact that it's illegal has no impact on my decision to smoke it or not. It is SO prevalent in the UK - it's a drug that is not going to go away. Legalisation is the only way IMO to control its use and sale.
As for giving up smoking, have any of you addicts (who want to stop) tried Alan Carr?
http://allencarr.com/ (http://allencarr.com/). I had my last cigarette 9 years ago while reading the book and haven't smoked (apart from a cigar maybe twice a year) since. The book is all about the psychology of smoking and how we convince ourselves of certain things. (e.g. We reach for a cigarette when we feel stressed because we think it will make us feel better. In fact what is happening is that we take a cigarette so that we are not adding to the stress by suffering nicotine withdrawals. The cigarette is simply bringing us back to a 'normal' state.) Anyway, it worked for me...
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 11, 2012, 09:13:21 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 11, 2012, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 07:07:31 PMYa, I wasn't talking about medical drugs used as prescribed.
Meth is the most common form of amphetamine drugs on the black market; but it's a drug cocktail of various harsh chemicals plus some of the OTC (now behind the counter) amphetamines...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a truck driver who is on that stuff and if you've ever seen someone tweaking out on the stuff you'd understand why.
I know, one of my friends got ran over by an 18 wheeler being driven by someone on meth, his motorcycle and helmet offered little protection.
Gosh, that's horrible T__T...
He survived, was in a coma for several months, but he lived. After almost a decade later, you'd never guess by looking at him that he'd taken on an 18 wheeler and lost. But he wasn't exactly the prettiest beforehand.
I'm glad to hear he made it through.... *hugs*
Yes, that is my feelings too. Tax payers paying for healthcare of hardcore smokers and alcoholics. It disgusts me that America doesnt have free health care. I don't want to.pay for a smoker who doesnt give a s hi t about their health, or someone who has 5 kids to sit on welfare. Makes me furious.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 11, 2012, 11:00:00 PM
It disgusts me that America doesnt have free health care.
Just a general 'fyi'. I don't think I want free healthcare.
Back to Drugs...
Quote from: Whitney on January 11, 2012, 07:07:31 PM
Ya, I wasn't talking about medical drugs used as prescribed.
Meth is the most common form of amphetamine drugs on the black market; but it's a drug cocktail of various harsh chemicals plus some of the OTC (now behind the counter) amphetamines...I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a truck driver who is on that stuff and if you've ever seen someone tweaking out on the stuff you'd understand why.
meth is a totally different story. it is FAR more potent then amphetamines and meth was introduced to the market later on. also it totally depends on how much someone uses. a small amount of amphetamines increases alertness and reaction time and eliminates drowsiness. a large does of it causes a WHOLE different scenario and it can confuse and disorient the user, which can result in accidents.
ever taken ephedrine? the same exact effects on the body as amphetamines. another product on the market in many pre workout supplements is 1,3 dimethylamine. also the exact same effect on the brain as amphetamines. i've used both and i've used adderal when i was in school. they all do the same thing.
Quote from: sweetdeath on January 11, 2012, 11:00:00 PM
It disgusts me that America doesnt have free health care.
Britain doesn't have
free healthcare either - we pay through the nose in taxes for our top-heavy, inefficient health service. Only today I heard about my friends sister who was in hospital to have a bunion removed. And because there was noone authorised and available to 'issue' crutches, she had to spend a night in hospital. Morons!
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 11:10:25 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 11, 2012, 11:00:00 PM
It disgusts me that America doesnt have free health care.
Just a general 'fyi'. I don't think I want free healthcare.
Back to Drugs...
Uh oookay. But I think every tax paying person or citizen is entilted to have it. e__e
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 11:10:25 PM
Just a general 'fyi'. I don't think I want free healthcare.
Why not? Has always worked well for me...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 07:54:46 PM
Loving and hungry people...that's what seems to be the biggest problem of legalizing marijuana.
On the subject of the other hard drugs...I'm not too keen on legalizing.
And it makes Pink Floyd sound how it's supposed to.
I'd like to swap the two days a week where I consume somewhat more than the medically recommended amount of alcohol for something else less harmful. Weed would be OK but modern medicine should be able to find something even less harmful. The morality propagated by religion, which sees seeking a high as degenerate prevents solutions that minimise harm.
Things like alcohol do have a social cost besides road carnage.
If you want a society where we refuse to allow people to just go die in a corner it will cost a socialised health system. Child neglect is a cost. Ideally, for me anyway, society invests in people by subsidising education costs for example. The loss of productivity of a person through drug abuse is a social cost.
I've tried most recreational drugs, with the notable exception of heroin, and only ever had one bad experience, from a very very very strong cup of cannabis tea. I felt like I was going insane for four or five hours, and that made me realise why cannabis is illegal. I've been very wary of weed since. But I have to weigh that up against all the fantastic times I've had high (particularly on mushrooms).
I think there's a middle ground of decriminalizing drug use without legalizing drugs, as they've done in countries like Portugal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal
You don't make them legal and freely available from shops or cafes, but you also don't waste police time prosecuting people who just want to have a good time and enjoy themselves at no-one else's expense. The problem is people who misuse drugs, not the drugs themselves, everything in moderation as the old saying goes.
It seems to me that alcohol is by far the most dangerous drug in western society, yet it's openly tolerated, and alcohol manufacturers are allowed to advertise freely. In the city that I live in, the centre is like a war zone every Friday and Saturday night with hundreds of very drunk people, and you're pretty much guaranteed to see drunk people fighting, throwing up and randomly screaming abuse at other people if you walk around a bit.
The UK government has estimated that alcohol abuse costs the economy 25 billion pounds a year, including a £2.7 billion burden on the NHS. Apparently, every minute alcohol-related problems cost the UK economy around £48,000, every hour more than 100 people go into hospital in England and Wales with an alcohol-related condition and every day more than 40 people die as a result of alcohol in England and Wales
http://www.alcoholservices-ateam.org.uk/alcohol%20awareness%202011.html
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0708/reducing_alcohol_harm.aspx
I've got a friend who's an alcoholic, and I visited him in hospital last night. He's currently bright yellow (including his eyes!) due to jaundice and has a huge belly due to water being released by his liver, which is currently clearly struggling. He's 42 and probably won't last much longer unless he quits the sauce. He hasn't worked for years and just wants to sit at home on benefits and get drunk every day, and expects the rest of society to support him. Funnily enough he's never touched any illicit drugs, it shows you don't need illegal drugs to destroy your life, that's easy enough with booze if you want to self-destruct.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 12, 2012, 01:26:20 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 11:10:25 PM
Just a general 'fyi'. I don't think I want free healthcare.
Why not? Has always worked well for me...
Norway is supposed to have the best healthcare in the world right?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 12, 2012, 01:25:47 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 11:10:25 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 11, 2012, 11:00:00 PM
It disgusts me that America doesnt have free health care.
Just a general 'fyi'. I don't think I want free healthcare.
Back to Drugs...
Uh oookay. But I think every tax paying person or citizen is entilted to have it. e__e
There are free clinics around. I don't think I'd want to be treated for a simple cold in any of them, but they are available. I'm happy having a job that affords me medical insurance. If it comes to the point where I cannot pay for the best, then the next best is still available. My point is that I've seen what "free healthcare" is like (at least here where I live) and I don't like what I see.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 12, 2012, 11:27:06 AM
I've tried most recreational drugs, with the notable exception of heroin, and only ever had one bad experience, from a very very very strong cup of cannabis tea. I felt like I was going insane for four or five hours, and that made me realise why cannabis is illegal. I've been very wary of weed since. But I have to weigh that up against all the fantastic times I've had high (particularly on mushrooms).
I think there's a middle ground of decriminalizing drug use without legalizing drugs, as they've done in countries like Portugal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal
You don't make them legal and freely available from shops or cafes, but you also don't waste police time prosecuting people who just want to have a good time and enjoy themselves at no-one else's expense. The problem is people who misuse drugs, not the drugs themselves, everything in moderation as the old saying goes.
It seems to me that alcohol is by far the most dangerous drug in western society, yet it's openly tolerated, and alcohol manufacturers are allowed to advertise freely. In the city that I live in, the centre is like a war zone every Friday and Saturday night with hundreds of very drunk people, and you're pretty much guaranteed to see drunk people fighting, throwing up and randomly screaming abuse at other people if you walk around a bit.
The UK government has estimated that alcohol abuse costs the economy 25 billion pounds a year, including a £2.7 billion burden on the NHS. Apparently, every minute alcohol-related problems cost the UK economy around £48,000, every hour more than 100 people go into hospital in England and Wales with an alcohol-related condition and every day more than 40 people die as a result of alcohol in England and Wales
http://www.alcoholservices-ateam.org.uk/alcohol%20awareness%202011.html
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0708/reducing_alcohol_harm.aspx
I've got a friend who's an alcoholic, and I visited him in hospital last night. He's currently bright yellow (including his eyes!) due to jaundice and has a huge belly due to water being released by his liver, which is currently clearly struggling. He's 42 and probably won't last much longer unless he quits the sauce. He hasn't worked for years and just wants to sit at home on benefits and get drunk every day, and expects the rest of society to support him. Funnily enough he's never touched any illicit drugs, it shows you don't need illegal drugs to destroy your life, that's easy enough with booze if you want to self-destruct.
Wholeheartedly agree. I've never understood this double-standard thinking.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 12, 2012, 03:35:08 PM
Norway is supposed to have the best healthcare in the world right?
I don't know. Neither my physical nor metaphorical penis need percieved enlargement, so I do not compare myself to others in terms of "best in the world"
I'm pretty sure marijuana is decriminalized in Canada now - you only really get into trouble if they find evidence of you trafficking. My father-in-law is a police officer and he says that his police force virtually never worries about your average Joe smoking a doob.
A lot of people complain about Canada's public health-care, but I love it! I've had great care with our system - pre-natal exams, bloodtests, ultrasounds, vaccines, delivery, post-natal exams. We even had a public health nurse visit our home the week after our son was born to check up on us. You just have to flash your provincial health-card. It's nice to know that it'll always (hopefully) be there.
I am in favor of legalizing marijuana, at least for a trial experiment. My suspicion is that it would cut into the profits of the Mexican drug cartels and perhaps somewhat minimize their influence in the USA. Furthermore, it would be an extra source of revenue for the government. The government could grant licenses and regulate use, and sell lower than the cartels do. That would drive the cartels out of the market on marijuana. As with alcohol, if anyone drives under the influence or creates a public disturbance, there would be criminal/civil penalties. But possession, consumption and sale (under government license) would be legal.
After a few years of this, we might experiment with some other drug. Humans generally should be free to choose, but of course some drugs are so addictive that choice itself is eliminated.
I'm in favor of legalizing all drugs, it wouldn't change my stance on whether I used in fact I wouldn't but its for bigger reasons that are political. I would need to write an entire dissertation on why I think drugs should legalized but in brief the TV series "Our Drugs War" sums up a small area of the reasons why, I have included the program synopsis with the links for those that don't want to watch the episodes.
Our Drugs War - Everyone's at It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FQllZYvKUs)
QuoteOne in six British citizens have used class-A drugs. Focusing on Scotland - named by the UN as Europe's drug capital - the first episode shows the stark contrast between Edinburgh's rich city centre and its underprivileged estates, where up to 60-70% of the residents can be drug users.
Film-maker Angus Macqueen visits one such estate with two volunteers for drugs charity Crew. They show him how the drug trade operates on a day-to-day basis in front of - and often with the participation of - children, some as young as eight. While all social classes use drugs equally, 70% of addicts have left school by the age of 16 and 85% are unemployed.
The police fail to control supply - in Scotland seizing just one per cent of the heroin consumed - criminals make money, and demand only increases. With the advent of synthetic drugs like GBL, which itself was until recently quite legal and easily available online, banning and policing are becoming ever more random and ineffectual.
Angus meets parents whose children have died as a result of drug abuse. Suzanne Dyer's son Chris died from an addiction to GBL, a compound found in some industrial cleaners and widely used by clubbers. GBL became a popular 'dance' drug when GHB, another similar, and less potent, substance was banned.
John Arthur from Crew, which supported Suzanne Dyer and her son, sees the obsession with the banning and classification of drugs as increasingly irrelevant to what is happening on the streets. John's not alone. Angus speaks to former government drugs advisor Professor David Nutt, who was famously sacked when he began to say in public that present policy is not based on scientific evidence
Our Drugs Wars - The Life and Death of a Dealer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmAPTLP1rHI)
QuoteThe Queensbridge Estate in New York lies within sight of the Manhattan skyscrapers, but is seemingly a world away. The largest housing complex in Queens, it is regularly raided by police to break up massive drug operations.
Here, award-winning filmmaker Angus Macqueen looks at the social cost of America's war on drugs through the life of 28-year-old Thomas Winston: a small-time drug dealer struggling to stay out of prison and away from the lure of easy money that illegal drugs offer. As his probation officer says, here is a man who can earn $15,000 a week in the drugs world or $200 before taxes working in McDonald's.
Thomas is first seen campaigning against the 'Rockefeller' drugs laws in New York State, where sale or possession of small amounts of drugs are given a mandatory sentence equivalent to second degree murder, and have long been seen to be both discriminatory and draconian.
Human Rights Watch have published a series of reports making clear that Whites, Black and Hispanics sell and consume narcotics in equal numbers, yet over 80% of the prisoners in New York State are Black or Latino. Inside a prison, barely a white face can be seen.
The film tracks Thomas's moving story over a number of months, as he interacts with the legal system and as his probation officer and lawyer attempt to help him; but gradually he is drawn back to his old life. By the end of the film, Thomas has been stabbed to death.
Thomas's story illustrates the failure of America's zero tolerance drug laws, which don't stop supply or address addiction, but rather consign whole groups of society to a tragic cycle, undermining the very fabric of whole communities: be it here in Britain or in the US.
Our Drugs Wars - Birth of a Narco-State (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJHqqd-XvLs)
QuoteThe third and final part of Angus Macqueen's exploration of the failure of present drugs polices takes the viewer to the frontline. Birth of a Narco-State shows how the war on drugs is actually fuelling the long-term civil war in Afghanistan, possibly creating what he calls a 'Narco-Theocracy': a toxic mixture of drugs money and religious extremism.
Meanwhile, western demand for heroin generates huge profits that finances both sides in the civil war, corrupting the very government that British soldiers are fighting to protect.
This film gets under the skin of the drug trade in Afghanistan, from the deserts of the Afghanistan-Iran border to the smuggling centre of Herat and the courts in Kabul, engaging with those working to establish some sort of order in the face of overwhelming odds; all the time questioning whether it is our drug laws or our drug demand that is causing the problems in the first place.
Macqueen meets General Aminullah - former head of security at Kabul International Airport - who was sacked after exposing widespread corruption and then placed under investigation himself. We see shocking footage he took of a young, female Afghan burqa-clad drug smuggler demonstrating brazen disregard for the law, who then got off scot-free. Rarely has such an open example of what 'corruption' means been caught on camera.
Filming in the newly-opened - US and UK-financed - drugs courts, it becomes clear that many of the traffickers who are arrested are still 'small fish'. The big players always seem to get off; even the judges admit that they are too well-connected, often high up in the government, to the very people the British troops are fighting for and dying to protect. Afghanistan's president himself, Hamid Karzai, pardoned five convicted drug traffickers connected to his election campaign.
Allied policy to the drugs issue has been in confusion since the invasion of 2001: our troops have been told in some years to eradicate all poppies, and in others to leave them so as to win hearts and minds of the peasants. Sometimes different policies are carried out in different areas.
And all the time around 60 to 70% of the Taliban's funding comes from the heroin trade. The profits are staggering, with 10 kilos of opium - valued at around £400 in Afghanistan - making one kilo of heroin worth £40,000 by the time it reaches Europe.
Information is the gateway for wise use and self-protection
At least hypocritical to license guns but not drugs for recreational use
The law can only cause direct increase in morbidity because of the taboo and the lack of mindful information, and indirect associated problems such as mainstream criminal underground industry growth.
the insane thing is you have lived it with alcohol before, spawed the american gangster and learned nothing. But that's not true. Revenue generation is the ruling control, in spite of "collateral damage", it does not depend on how much individuals learn.
"If elections could change things the police would not carry guns", a humorous quote from the Dario Fo play the accidental death of an anarchist.
Addiction is a personality disorder, I have seen people addicted on gambling, sex, proper drugs, tranquilisers, their dentist, whatever!
yes smoking crack will cause a strong withdrawal urge with the first ever puff.
It's ulysee's sirens that you cannot normally resist. He KNEW that however and PREPARED FOR IT
Heroin can be licenced at it's normal price, 1 dollar for 5 shots, and its use and abuse should be legally unrelated to any crimes commited. FACE VALUE. we are free thinking individuals who make conscious choices.
Psychedelics belong in churches. priests should use them to find their mark and freely administer them to the interested public.
The 60s generation is now old.
I think Barack said something like "yes I did smoke and I did inhale, that was point of it."
It's still against the law, and if Barack had been caught he possibly wouldn't be where he is.
It's my impression the prospect for law change is as remote as ever it was, more remote probably. There was the thought that people who had used in their youth would relax laws when they moved into positions of power, it never happened.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 20, 2012, 01:34:18 PM
The 60s generation is now old.
older still are statues on mushrooms from indian mesoamerican history and statues of naked breasted women holding poppies up in thir hands from minoan times
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 20, 2012, 01:34:18 PM
There was the thought that people who had used in their youth would relax laws when they moved into positions of power, it never happened.
although age may temper the implementing, it is not always so, yet power corrupts. the more there is available the quicker and more thorough the corruption (adolescents for presidents means a world with no armies)
obama is as good as they can get given the dreafull circumstance, and prior performance
in some ancient greek states if you hanged on to your term in office-which was deliberately short-you would get voted into exile banishement. In a few enlightened places, if you personally owned more than when you entered office, you could loose your life.
the illegality of it has invented big bussiness. it was creative economics with an agenda the legislation history
and eg. in holland they ventured off to terminate that type of rogue power buildup
so if one man can do it, anyone can, a grandad from the mountains, told me