Now that I can post about more controversial topics, I thought I should tell you all why I finally decided to reach out to other atheists after all these years.
My wife was born overseas and recently applied for her US citizenship. While doing her application, we found out that the required citizenship oath has the line "So help me God" at the end. This was a disappointing surprise to us, but further research indicated that she could omit saying that line as long as she explained her objections in her application. There is precedence for this, so we didn't think it would be a big deal.
Fast forward to her citizenship interview and test, which happened last month. The interviewer sees her application with her attached objection and explanation. He's completely taken aback by this, saying that in ten years he had never seen anyone object to this before (which I find hard to believe considering we live in Massachusetts!). He then leaves the room briefly to check with his supervisor about whether this is really ok, and then comes back in the room saying that while it's ok, it makes him really sad and upset. Among the things he said:
- "Are you sure you don't want to change this?" (No, she says, multiple times)
- "I just don't understand. You seem like such a great person, so smart and accomplished, and yet you have this one thing."
Also, while he was giving the oral test, he asked her to name the two political parties, then asked her which one she preferred! She decided to just say Democrat, and of course the guy admitted he was a Republican, saying it was because he had been in the military.
Anyway, this didn't stop her from passing the test, but needless to say I was so shocked and infuriated that a government employee giving a citizenship test would do something like that. To her credit, she held her ground, but it was clearly inappropriate and illegal. While I've always read about things like this happening in the Bible Belt, this was the first time I'd ever heard of something like this happening to someone I know.
We're considering our options once she takes her oath (without saying that last line of course!) We've settled on reporting this to the Freedom From Religion Foundation or Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, since they're probably used to dealing with things like this. I'd be curious to hear what you all think should be done, though.
Anyway, that was a real eye-opening experience, and a few days later I began looking for an atheist forum. Having a community to talk (or b**tch) to seems even more important than ever. So here I am! :) Thanks for listening.
That is absolutely horrid!
I don't blame you for being pissed. Once that employee learned that it was "really okay" from his supervisor, he should have kept his mouth shut!
Very glad you're here. Very pissed off that this happened to your wife. It's outrageous and the guy should be disciplined, or just f***ing canned from his job. What an ass.
Too weird for words. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.venganza.org%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fth_FSMShocked-2.gif&hash=33e20a7783aff5c1afd00ece622bb6a9ebe108e2)
Quote from: Firebird on January 06, 2012, 03:50:01 AM
We've settled on reporting this to the Freedom From Religion Foundation or Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, since they're probably used to dealing with things like this. I'd be curious to hear what you all think should be done, though.
I'd speak, or write, to the guy's supervisor directly as well. He may not be aware of how far the clerk has gone (if their bureaucracy is anything like as overworked and understaffed as the one I work for is) and should have an opportunity to deal with it himself before a watchdog group turns up. By all means tell the watchdogs too, so that they can confirm it's been taken care of (if it has). If it hasn't, they can do whatever they do to bring pressure to bear but I think it's best to at least try to handle it internally first. It can turn into a real can of worms once it becomes a public matter.
I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!
Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.
Not shocked at all by this. It was bound to happen to somebody at some time and it was wrong IMO. It also makes me wonder how many people do not have the courage of their convictions and never raise the issue of "So help me God" and simple say it. I would expect that is the reason why the official has never had this problem before. Fortunatly the increase in 'Militant Atheists' I.E. those prepared to say they are atheists, will probably see this sort of honesty become more prevalent.
Being British I can't offer any practical advice on who/where you should take this in the future but it is obvious that you should take this further if religious prejudice (God exists) is to be removed from public life.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do and do please keep us informed as to what happens.
Quote from: Traveler on January 06, 2012, 04:53:42 AM
I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!
Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.
There is an alternative and a I read here that in the USA very few people actually take the oath on a bible. Bruce would know this best I would think.
yeah, it's an outrageous story, and it's really good you've reported it. I'd also make a complaint to the interviewer's superiors, he should definitely be disciplined, and really shouldn't be doing that job period. And a big thumbs up to your wife for standing her ground.
Quote from: Tank on January 06, 2012, 08:07:01 AM
Quote from: Traveler on January 06, 2012, 04:53:42 AM
I'm really glad you've shared this experience with us. I've wondered what I'd do if ever called to testify at a trial. As I understand it you swear to "tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god," on a bible. I think there's an alternative available, but I've wondered what everyone would think while I stopped everything to give me the alternate. It really pisses me off to think they might want me to lie on an oath when I'm vowing to tell the truth!!!
Anyway, I'm glad you're here, and hope that you get some satisfaction on this ridiculous situation. You wife should never have had to go through that, and it adds to my despair at the direction this country is headed.
There is an alternative and a I read here that in the USA very few people actually take the oath on a bible. Bruce would know this best I would think.
Yes, I think it's called "affirming" -- you affirm your word is good rather than swearing to god that it is. But it depends on where you live whether you even need to ask to affirm. In 3 times on jury duty, and once in court as a witness, I never saw a bible used and no one ever mentioned god, but then I live in LA county. In the South it's probably very different.
Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.
Looks to me more like an ignorant employee who took it upon himself to give unwanted advice. I'm curious to know what the supervisor said about the whole thing :P
In a hypothetical world where I'm boss, I wouldn't let an employee like that be in a higher decision making position. ::)
Sounds like this was simply an issue for this one person. Oaths generally aren't required to be religious in nature, and the "so help me God" clause is more a traditional hangover from another time. Most people can simply request that it not be included in the oath, and they can "affirm" instead of swearing. I never see oaths taken on a Bible in legal situations. Even in Central Texas where I live, the judges don't include the "So help" clause anymore.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 06, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.
I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office
has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand :)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 06, 2012, 04:41:37 AM
I'd speak, or write, to the guy's supervisor directly as well. He may not be aware of how far the clerk has gone (if their bureaucracy is anything like as overworked and understaffed as the one I work for is) and should have an opportunity to deal with it himself before a watchdog group turns up. By all means tell the watchdogs too, so that they can confirm it's been taken care of (if it has). If it hasn't, they can do whatever they do to bring pressure to bear but I think it's best to at least try to handle it internally first. It can turn into a real can of worms once it becomes a public matter.
That won't do anything, it is nearly impossible to get fired from a government job.
@OP, that is messed up, but not surprising.
That's pretty outrageous. I agree that I'm not entirely sure that it is a violation of the separation clause, but either way, it sucks. Good for your wife for standing up for her convictions, even if it does make that idiot "really sad and upset." (Cry me an effin' river, buddy. ::))
Quote from: Firebird on January 06, 2012, 09:41:56 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 06, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.
I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand :)
I don't know what went on, I wasn't there, but if I misread I apologise. He implied that she had to be religious to pass the interview or that would count in her favour? ???
As for "so help me god", I have to agree with what Ecurb said, that it's more of a traditional vestige than anything. I would place it in the same category of other commonly used expressions such as "thank god" or "jeez" without much second thought, but I can only speak for myself. I don't feel like a hypocrite doing so, even though I'm an atheist.
What I meant to say is that a secular State can't determine whether religion should have any special bearing on these things and not a country where all offices are free of ignorant employees who might feel they should evangelise for whatever reason. But like I said, I could've misread the situation. :)
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on January 06, 2012, 09:50:00 PM
That won't do anything, it is nearly impossible to get fired from a government job.
Fired, no, but a Government employee can be disciplined in various ways, including shifted to a job (which will eventually be lower paying) where he doesn't deal with the public. My concern about making it a big deal right away is that it can backfire, esp. with a public as religious as the American public is. This could come off as "mean, hypersensitive atheists picking on tender-hearted Xtian who's merely concerned for a fellow human's immortal soul". That sort of thing. Since what's really wanted is the clerk to knock it off, I think the best way to handle that without blowback is thru the supervisor.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 07, 2012, 12:34:02 AM
Quote from: Firebird on January 06, 2012, 09:41:56 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 06, 2012, 04:14:40 PM
Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.
I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand :)
I don't know what went on, I wasn't there, but if I misread I apologise. He implied that she had to be religious to pass the interview or that would count in her favour? ???
As for "so help me god", I have to agree with what Ecurb said, that it's more of a traditional vestige than anything. I would place it in the same category of other commonly used expressions such as "thank god" or "jeez" without much second thought, but I can only speak for myself. I don't feel like a hypocrite doing so, even though I'm an atheist.
What I meant to say is that a secular State can't determine whether religion should have any special bearing on these things and not a country where all offices are free of ignorant employees who might feel they should evangelise for whatever reason. But like I said, I could've misread the situation. :)
No need to apologize. Like I said, one reason I posted about this was to gather reactions from all of you, and I completely respect your opinion. Just because I'm opinionated too doesn't mean I'm angry :) If I gave off that reaction, my apologies.
While I don't have an issue with people saying "thank god", "Bless you" etc. (hell, I still do that), I feel like the oath is a different matter. Separation of church and state is a big deal in my mind, and this being the official citizenship oath for the country crosses the line beyond my comfort level. And yes, I do feel the same way about the pledge of allegiance and our currency mentioning god.
Quote from: Firebird on January 07, 2012, 05:32:08 AM
While I don't have an issue with people saying "thank god", "Bless you" etc. (hell, I still do that), I feel like the oath is a different matter. Separation of church and state is a big deal in my mind, and this being the official citizenship oath for the country crosses the line beyond my comfort level. And yes, I do feel the same way about the pledge of allegiance and our currency mentioning god.
I know how you feel, it's the same way with me. I can't even look at Xmas as a secular holiday -- to me it's religious -- and giving an oath in god's name would be several different levels of lie. I couldn't do it and protecting our right not to is my #1 political hot button issue.
Try the ACLU as well.
I know this was upsetting, and cast a shadow on an otherwise happy event. It was an inappropriate response from a representative of the U.S. government. I couldn't help wondering what I would do in that situation, given that I am a staunch atheist.
I have been trying to learn to pick my fights, not waste bullets, make sure it's worth the battle, because there is always a price. It may be time, inconvenience, red tape or complete rejection. Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.
Cross your fingers behind your back and say you swear to god. Who cares. So you lied, your not going to hell. Tell the guy right after that your not religious, and he'll look at you with no expression and say "So". His work is done and everything went by the book.
This forum has already help me release pent up feelings, so when I encounter an ass and it doesn't matter, I'll give him a big smile and lie, without blinking. One little unimportant lie and you would have had zero problem, and no bad or emotional feelings, instead your writing about it now.
My thoughts? Pick your fights.
Quote from: Ateo on January 10, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.
That's a valid point, and I've gotten similar advice from some of my friends about this. Here's what I keep thinking about though: what if, later on, he does intimidate someone into saying the oath? What if, later on, he really does try to deny citizenship to someone based on their lack of belief? Or, even if it's not him, what if another employee in that office sees his behavior as having no consequences and thus feels he/she can do the same? Yes, I know this is all hypothetical and you can tie yourself in knots when trying to consider all the consequences of an action or lack thereof. Still, though, there's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal with this. And that may be worth it.
"There's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal with this. And that may be worth it."
Can't argue with what is right, good for you. I'll have to review my value system, I think I'll probably still pick my fights, some people and situations just aren't worth it to me.
I'm sorry this happened to you and your wife. It's good you stood up for YOUR RIGHTS though. Here on HAF, you can vent all you'd like. Stories like this are really interesting.
You had a lot of patience, especially when he rudely commented "but you seem so smart."
Yeah, she's smarter than you, because she doesn't believe in a higher power.
Quote from: Firebird on January 12, 2012, 04:14:34 AM
Quote from: Ateo on January 10, 2012, 07:37:53 PM
Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.
That's a valid point, and I've gotten similar advice from some of my friends about this. Here's what I keep thinking about though: what if, later on, he does intimidate someone into saying the oath? What if, later on, he really does try to deny citizenship to someone based on their lack of belief? Or, even if it's not him, what if another employee in that office sees his behavior as having no consequences and thus feels he/she can do the same? Yes, I know this is all hypothetical and you can tie yourself in knots when trying to consider all the consequences of an action or lack thereof. Still, though, there's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal with this. And that may be worth it.
^Agree with this. Those of us who are able to do so need to take a stand when issues like this come up in order to protect those who, for whatever reason, are unable to stand up for themselves. That's the American way (right?) something that government employee needs to think about.
If this had just been some idiot as some department store then it wouldn't matter...the issue is that he was representing our government while acting in such a horrible manner (and I'm not exaggerating....it is horrible for someone who is representing the US to violate the rights of citizens, and prospective citizens, to have their own views about religion without gov influence....there really isn't much value left in our government if freedom is weakened as that is the core foundation; and it's already being chipped at by various idiots in politics as it is).
The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Emma Lazarus, 1883
The poem written inside the Statue of Liberty. One of the best quotes I could think of for the occation. Can anyone see where it says:"but only if you're Christian!"?
....didn't think so.
Nice quote, Guardian. <3
See, I can be deep and reflective if I want to.
So a little update on this (read the beginning of the thread for the full story). Though I insisted to my wife that we should complain about what happened on her citizenship test, she's been reluctant to do so, saying it won't make much difference. I also suspect she feels a little bad about getting the guy in trouble. We had another talk about this tonight while repeating the story to one of her friends, and I've made it clear that I disagree with her, but that I would respect her wishes if she really didn't want to complain.
Part of me feels like I should push her more, or just make the complaint myself to stand up for other agnostics/atheists. But I'm leaning against doing it, out of respect for her. I just hope this guy doesn't pull the same crap on someone else.
I think there are ways of fighting for something and what you're get that as a consequence (no need really of going against your wife's wishes in this particular case). It's under the larger umbrella that is church/state separation - a question of choosing your battles and knowing some of the intended consequences.
Though while I understand that you would be pissed off by what happened, it seemed that the guy's supervisor didn't share the same opinion, the guy could be sued if he had rejected on the basis of religious affiliation. Religion is and should remain as powerless in such situations (not a situation that should be taken for granted).
Meh, the guy looks more clueless than ill-intentioned.
wow that really is quite shocking. i especially detest the 'but you seem so smart' commment. but it does seem to me to be one donkey in the wrong job. i presume those interviews are nerve-wreaking, and one would do almost anything to past them, so being questioned in that manner must have been awful for her, i'm so impressed she stuck to her guns like that, that's awesome. people who cant act professionally definately shouldnt be in jobs as important as that. he was an idiot and does deserve reporting imo, but i dont think it would help any. i do hope he doesnt progress to making more of point of it next time someone questions the whole 'so help me god' thing. i reckon the fact that we're discussing it is a good sign that at some point there are tabs being kept on these situations which hopefully stop them from getting any worse.
Is there some way you could make an anonymous suggestion/complaint to the office, if your wife is ok with it?
I'm sure there is. I could bring that up with her too, but I doubt it would change her position. Though I suppose I could tell her that I would just do it so it wouldn't be her responsibility in the end.
Thanks, it's a nice idea.
Huh. For some reason I was unaware that there was a "so help me god" clause. And I've been under oath about four or five times... :-\