Christians believe that when they die they are going to this fairy tale land called heaven, where they are going to worship this egomaniac god forever and ever. If I were a christian I would ask myself, what if I eventually tire of heaven? What if I get tired of kissing god's ass every single day of my existence? What if I decide you don't want to exist anymore? The first trillion years might be fun. The second trillion years might even be tolerable, but how about after hundreds of trillions of years? How about after a quadrillion years? How about after a quintillion years? Time would continue to progress forever and ever, and ever. Yet I wouldn't have even reached the infancy of my existence. Furthermore what happens if my opinions about god begin to change? What if I learn that god is nothing more than a self-absorbed, control freak, bully? What if I decide I don't want to be part of heaven any longer? Existing in heaven would be more like living in hell. For the christians in this forum, and I know there are several, this might be something to pounder.
I wouldn't. Partway through through eternity I'd have done all I could do, learned all I could learn and seen all I could see... then I'd still have an eternity to go.
A worse eternal heaven is one I've heard from theists where we'd all spend our eternity singing praises to god... that is one person's heaven which would get old after a few minutes.
Mostly, I wouldn't want an eternal life because it would eventually get boring. Even a hell of eternal torture would get boring. I'm not a theist any longer, but that is what I thought when I was.
It would be fun plotting to over through the incumbent.
Is the excruciating boredom of a church service training for an eternity in heaven?
I wouldn't want to be stuck in one place, I'd want to get about, seed planets and see what happens.
I'd sleep a lot too. If it got too boring I'd just get some one to wake me when something was happening.
This post reminds me of Mark Twain's Letters from Earth.
If you haven't read it, I definitely recommend doing so.
Quote from: BullyforBronto on January 02, 2012, 12:58:40 AM
This post reminds me of Mark Twain's Letters from Earth.
If you haven't read it, I definitely recommend doing so.
Yes! Wonderful!
But yes, being alive for all eternity sounds unbearably tiring.
You get to learn how to play the harp, and then write some glorious songs about how great god is.
All will gather round and listen intently, then they will play their own renditions of "ode to god" and you get to listen.
At the after function you get to talk to all your loved ones (well, the ones that made it to heaven) and tell each other about how much you love god and how great he is, and how you wish you could write the perfect song about him.
If you are lucky you might even get to see Hendrix as he masters the harp and writes his songs about god...
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 31, 2011, 04:48:18 PM
Christians believe that when they die they are going to this fairy tale land called heaven, where they are going to worship this egomaniac god forever and ever.
I much prefer the heaven implied by this, which I snagged from someone else on some other thread:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.tinypic.com%2Fi6dnax.jpg&hash=bb33b00199b2f3880bc403b9ac22e1ab9e8884a5)
I can say without any hesitation that I want to live forever. I never want to cease to exist. I think life is wonderful and cannot imagine ever being bored with it.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2012, 03:09:09 AMI can say without any hesitation that I want to live forever. I never want to cease to exist. I think life is wonderful and cannot imagine ever being bored with it.
Get your favorite book, go to your favorite page, and read it and only it hundreds of times a day for a year straight (no watching TV or movies, no playing games, no listening to music or talking to anyone else or doing anything else). If you get bored with that one page after reading it thousands of times in row, then eternity is not for you, because eventually during eternity, you'll have done everything and learned everything possible an infinite amount of times... and you'll still have an eternity to go.
So, assuming you'd not like to live forever, how long would you like to live for, knowing what you know about the universe, and had space-folding technology? I suppose it would depend on whether life on other planets could be found. If not, I think I'd have had my fill in a few thousand years. But even then I think I'd get a bit bored after the human race had died off.
Quote from: Scissorlegs on January 04, 2012, 03:30:26 PMSo, assuming you'd not like to live forever, how long would you like to live for, knowing what you know about the universe, and had space-folding technology? I suppose it would depend on whether life on other planets could be found. If not, I think I'd have had my fill in a few thousand years. But even then I think I'd get a bit bored after the human race had died off.
I think I would also be good for a few thousand years before I'd want to no longer exist.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
Get your favorite book, go to your favorite page, and read it and only it hundreds of times a day for a year straight (no watching TV or movies, no playing games, no listening to music or talking to anyone else or doing anything else). If you get bored with that one page after reading it thousands of times in row, then eternity is not for you, because eventually during eternity, you'll have done everything and learned everything possible an infinite amount of times... and you'll still have an eternity to go.
Sounds like you know exactly what heaven will be like...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
Get your favorite book, go to your favorite page, and read it and only it hundreds of times a day for a year straight (no watching TV or movies, no playing games, no listening to music or talking to anyone else or doing anything else). If you get bored with that one page after reading it thousands of times in row, then eternity is not for you, because eventually during eternity, you'll have done everything and learned everything possible an infinite amount of times... and you'll still have an eternity to go.
Sounds like you know exactly what heaven will be like...
Who said anything about heaven? I was responding to:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2012, 03:09:09 AMI can say without any hesitation that I want to live forever. I never want to cease to exist. I think life is wonderful and cannot imagine ever being bored with it.
He mentioned nothing of heaven, just living forever.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
Get your favorite book, go to your favorite page, and read it and only it hundreds of times a day for a year straight (no watching TV or movies, no playing games, no listening to music or talking to anyone else or doing anything else). If you get bored with that one page after reading it thousands of times in row, then eternity is not for you, because eventually during eternity, you'll have done everything and learned everything possible an infinite amount of times... and you'll still have an eternity to go.
Sounds like you know exactly what heaven will be like...
Who said anything about heaven? I was responding to: Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2012, 03:09:09 AMI can say without any hesitation that I want to live forever. I never want to cease to exist. I think life is wonderful and cannot imagine ever being bored with it.
He mentioned nothing of heaven, just living forever.
I thought it was reasonable to assume the Theist mentioned living forever in the context of "heaven". We are in the religion section right? "Heaven" is in the title of the thread...checking...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:12:21 PMI thought it was reasonable to assume the Theist mentioned living forever in the context of "heaven". We are in the religion section right? "Heaven" is in the title of the thread...checking...
I don't think it's reasonable to assume that at all, not all religions have a heaven. Not even all religions have an afterlife. He may have meant his statement in the context of heaven, but it was not apparent in his text and I certainly didn't mention anything about a heaven, so your comment is still improper in the context of a reply to what I wrote. I provided a thought experiment of how an eternity would feel and how boring everything will get once everything has been done a few billion times only to be left with an eternity left to live.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:12:21 PMI thought it was reasonable to assume the Theist mentioned living forever in the context of "heaven". We are in the religion section right? "Heaven" is in the title of the thread...checking...
I don't think it's reasonable to assume that at all, not all religions have a heaven. Not even all religions have an afterlife. He may have meant his statement in the context of heaven, but it was not apparent in his text and I certainly didn't mention anything about a heaven, so your comment is still improper in the context of a reply to what I wrote. I provided a thought experiment of how an eternity would feel and how boring everything will get once everything has been done a few billion times only to be left with an eternity left to live.
I stand corrected. It is unreasonable to assume a Theist in a forum section of religion, under a thread about heaven and existing forever, that his comment about existing forever and loving life...is totally off on my part.
Apologies to
Ecurb Noselrub.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:39:47 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:22:32 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:12:21 PMI thought it was reasonable to assume the Theist mentioned living forever in the context of "heaven". We are in the religion section right? "Heaven" is in the title of the thread...checking...
I don't think it's reasonable to assume that at all, not all religions have a heaven. Not even all religions have an afterlife. He may have meant his statement in the context of heaven, but it was not apparent in his text and I certainly didn't mention anything about a heaven, so your comment is still improper in the context of a reply to what I wrote. I provided a thought experiment of how an eternity would feel and how boring everything will get once everything has been done a few billion times only to be left with an eternity left to live.
I stand corrected. It is unreasonable to assume a Theist in a forum section of religion, under a thread about heaven and existing forever, that his comment about existing forever and loving life...is totally off on my part.
Apologies to Ecurb Noselrub.
Well, if you're just going to get snarky and uncivil, you might want to avoid replying to me.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:12:21 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 04:04:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 02:31:03 PM
Get your favorite book, go to your favorite page, and read it and only it hundreds of times a day for a year straight (no watching TV or movies, no playing games, no listening to music or talking to anyone else or doing anything else). If you get bored with that one page after reading it thousands of times in row, then eternity is not for you, because eventually during eternity, you'll have done everything and learned everything possible an infinite amount of times... and you'll still have an eternity to go.
Sounds like you know exactly what heaven will be like...
Who said anything about heaven? I was responding to: Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 04, 2012, 03:09:09 AMI can say without any hesitation that I want to live forever. I never want to cease to exist. I think life is wonderful and cannot imagine ever being bored with it.
He mentioned nothing of heaven, just living forever.
I thought it was reasonable to assume the Theist mentioned living forever in the context of "heaven". We are in the religion section right? "Heaven" is in the title of the thread...checking...
Well this is the religion section and heaven is mentioned in the title, so I would agree that it's not unreasonable to interpret the question in light of one's world view if that included the concept of 'heaven'. Each to their own.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Well, if you're just going to get snarky and uncivil, you might want to avoid replying to me.
I'm being snarky and uncivil??
I've often thought that the Christian idea of heaven is my idea of hell, spending all eternity in the company of dull Christians and their even duller god. It does remind me a bit of the famous letterbox scene from Bedazzled
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z8AddFYCnA
No-one's really thinking about just how long eternity is, and also the fact that humans won't exist in a few million years' time, never mind a trillion. If we haven't destroyed ourselves by then, I'm sure we'll have evolved into something else.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 05:15:25 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Well, if you're just going to get snarky and uncivil, you might want to avoid replying to me.
I'm being snarky and uncivil??
Let me say, then. I apologize for being snarky and uncivil.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 05:15:25 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 04:44:09 PM
Well, if you're just going to get snarky and uncivil, you might want to avoid replying to me.
I'm being snarky and uncivil??
You said before when you acted in a similar manner that it was you being intentionally snarky. I told you that I would remember that kind of behavior and attribute it accordingly.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 05:21:06 PMLet me say, then. I apologize for being snarky and uncivil.
I don't require or desire any apologies for behavior towards me, I just thought you might not want to be heading into being uncivil.
I personally would love to live forever, watch Humanity grow and make amazing discoveries... just not in "Heaven".
And I was raised LDS where we get to become Gods and make our own worlds to test our own spiritual children with sin and punish them for having the will to spend time thinking.
o_O
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 10:06:42 PM
I personally would love to live forever, watch Humanity grow and make amazing discoveries... just not in "Heaven".
So you're saying there would be endless things to watch and discover...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 10:06:42 PM
I personally would love to live forever, watch Humanity grow and make amazing discoveries... just not in "Heaven".
So you're saying there would be endless things to watch and discover...
Absolutely, ever since our minds evolved a taste for curiosity Human beings have become the most creative species we've seen, I find the prospects of what Humans could be capable of doing quite exciting.
^_^
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
Absolutely, ever since our minds evolved a taste for curiosity Human beings have become the most creative species we've seen, I find the prospects of what Humans could be capable of doing quite exciting.
^_^
So then you and I are at odds with
Davin who may, it seems, feel living forever would be like reading one page out of a book hundreds or thousands of times.
How long has this universe been around? At what speed is the universe expanding? So unless we find a way of travelling at the speed of light, it seems simply exploring the universe, like driving across country, would take Billions of Trillions and so on, years to make that trek...not to mention exploring every planet, every inch of it. That alone would be time consuming of seemingly an eternity. That's a straight line exploration...now think of the infinite number of directions we could take from each point or from here. Mind boggling. Then we have the implementation of the new knowledge we gain and creating new things for our entertainment...the imagination can run wild with ideas.
Boring?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:19:37 PM
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
Absolutely, ever since our minds evolved a taste for curiosity Human beings have become the most creative species we've seen, I find the prospects of what Humans could be capable of doing quite exciting.
^_^
So then you and I are at odds with Davin who may, it seems, feel living forever would be like reading one page out of a book hundreds or thousands of times.
How long has this universe been around? At what speed is the universe expanding? So unless we find a way of travelling at the speed of light, it seems simply exploring the universe, like driving across country, would take Billions of Trillions and so on, years to make that trek...not to mention exploring every planet, every inch of it. That alone would be time consuming of seemingly an eternity. That's a straight line exploration...now think of the infinite number of directions we could take from each point or from here. Mind boggling. Then we have the implementation of the new knowledge we gain and creating new things for our entertainment...the imagination can run wild with ideas.
Boring?
Perhaps I am at odds with him, but history has shown us that Humankind spends lots of time repeating the same events over and over again. So maybe he is more correct on this one o_O
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:19:37 PM
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
Absolutely, ever since our minds evolved a taste for curiosity Human beings have become the most creative species we've seen, I find the prospects of what Humans could be capable of doing quite exciting.
^_^
So then you and I are at odds with Davin who may, it seems, feel living forever would be like reading one page out of a book hundreds or thousands of times.
How long has this universe been around? At what speed is the universe expanding? So unless we find a way of travelling at the speed of light, it seems simply exploring the universe, like driving across country, would take Billions of Trillions and so on, years to make that trek...not to mention exploring every planet, every inch of it. That alone would be time consuming of seemingly an eternity. That's a straight line exploration...now think of the infinite number of directions we could take from each point or from here. Mind boggling. Then we have the implementation of the new knowledge we gain and creating new things for our entertainment...the imagination can run wild with ideas.
Boring?
Not boring the first few thousand times. But it is eternity, so after doing all that a few billion times still with an eternity left to live... yeah, boring.
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:39:30 PM
Perhaps I am at odds with him, but history has shown us that Humankind spends lots of time repeating the same events over and over again. So maybe he is more correct on this one o_O
True. We are creatures of habit with foods we like, sports we watch/play, areas of interest we delve into...it seems to me that doing an array of things, say in succession for millions and billions of years, to then turn around and start again, assuming of course that the universe isn't stagnant, will the next time produce different results/pleasures.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 11:48:31 PM
Not boring the first few thousand times. But it is eternity, so after doing all that a few billion times still with an eternity left to live... yeah, boring.
I guess that's pessimistic thinking vs optimistic thinking. I simply think of the ongoing array of things and people to interact with. No one said living forever would be static and not dynamic.
Of course with our finite minds, how can we even fathom eternity...imagination is the only way. Some put limits on imagination.
Quote from: Davin on January 04, 2012, 11:48:31 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:19:37 PM
Quote from: superfes on January 04, 2012, 11:04:35 PM
Absolutely, ever since our minds evolved a taste for curiosity Human beings have become the most creative species we've seen, I find the prospects of what Humans could be capable of doing quite exciting.
^_^
So then you and I are at odds with Davin who may, it seems, feel living forever would be like reading one page out of a book hundreds or thousands of times.
How long has this universe been around? At what speed is the universe expanding? So unless we find a way of travelling at the speed of light, it seems simply exploring the universe, like driving across country, would take Billions of Trillions and so on, years to make that trek...not to mention exploring every planet, every inch of it. That alone would be time consuming of seemingly an eternity. That's a straight line exploration...now think of the infinite number of directions we could take from each point or from here. Mind boggling. Then we have the implementation of the new knowledge we gain and creating new things for our entertainment...the imagination can run wild with ideas.
Boring?
Not boring the first few thousand times. But it is eternity, so after doing all that a few billion times still with an eternity left to live... yeah, boring.
I think I would make the sacrifice of living just a hundred or so years watching mankind stumble so much right now during my lifetime to an eternity where there's a possibility that after the Universe is extinguished I would still be around forever with nothing.
Are you really prepared to spend millions of years at a time travelling? Now, that's a looooong game of i-spy. Your brain would have atrophied long before you'd left the milky way. And that's long after you'd ingested every word ever written... including the entire Mills and Boon collection. I'm outa here...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 04, 2012, 11:19:37 PMHow long has this universe been around? At what speed is the universe expanding? So unless we find a way of travelling at the speed of light, it seems simply exploring the universe, like driving across country, would take Billions of Trillions and so on, years to make that trek...not to mention exploring every planet, every inch of it. That alone would be time consuming of seemingly an eternity. That's a straight line exploration...now think of the infinite number of directions we could take from each point or from here. Mind boggling. Then we have the implementation of the new knowledge we gain and creating new things for our entertainment...the imagination can run wild with ideas.
Boring?
An eternal afterlife of sitting around paradise and praising god forever would become intolerably boring after awhile. People would be looking for ways to commit posthumous suicide. However, if we took the prospect of eternal exploration such as you've posted above and intertwine that with the afterlife, NOW we have a vastly more appealing afterlife concept. Unencumbered by the organic shell we now occupy we're off to explore the far reaches of the universe free of the constraints of physics and capable of interstellar travel and cosmic exploration in some ethereal, spirit state of being. I'll admit that sounds like a fascinating way to spend an eternity and I'd LOVE to believe it if it weren't, y'know...clearly ridiculous.
But it's definitely a fun and intriguing concept on which to sell an afterlife. It's a lot better than just doing nothing in heaven.
What the hell is there to even DO in heaven? I'm assuming there's no TV, or movies, or the internet, or Wii, or Caribbean cruises, or Happy Hour, or anything that we humans regard as fun. Supposedly animals have no souls so there aren't even dogs in heaven. So, really, what is there to do with all that time? I'd be bored shitless within fifty years.
Time to bail on heaven and hit the interstellar highway.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 06:48:18 AM
An eternal afterlife of sitting around paradise and praising god forever would become intolerably boring after awhile. People would be looking for ways to commit posthumous suicide. However, if we took the prospect of eternal exploration such as you've posted above and intertwine that with the afterlife, NOW we have a vastly more appealing afterlife concept. Unencumbered by the organic shell we now occupy we're off to explore the far reaches of the universe free of the constraints of physics and capable of interstellar travel and cosmic exploration in some ethereal, spirit state of being. I'll admit that sounds like a fascinating way to spend an eternity and I'd LOVE to believe it if it weren't, y'know...clearly ridiculous.
But it's definitely a fun and intriguing concept on which to sell an afterlife. It's a lot better than just doing nothing in heaven.
What the hell is there to even DO in heaven? I'm assuming there's no TV, or movies, or the internet, or Wii, or Caribbean cruises, or Happy Hour, or anything that we humans regard as fun. Supposedly animals have no souls so there aren't even dogs in heaven. So, really, what is there to do with all that time? I'd be bored shitless within fifty years.
Time to bail on heaven and hit the interstellar highway.
In the context of the fairytale...who has shown you that heaven will only be sitting aroung (like in church) worshipping God? If we take the fairytale and disect it, when God created humans, were they sitting around worshipping God 24/7? If anything, God instituted the 1 in 7 worship concept, so one can only RIGHTLY assume that if there is "church" in heaven, it would be one "day" in 7. How that will play out, I don't know. I have no clue. However another thing we can assume from our creation is what we are intrinsically(? is that the word I'm looking for?). We are curious, we learn, we build, we plant, we invent, we play...that is all normal things that in my mind will all be present in heaven...afterall, the fairytale God did create us in His image...and he creates so why wouldn't we do the same (albeit not necessarily with God-like abilities, but more as we do now)
Pffft, hell no. i'd rather chill with Lucifer than be bored all day in heaven. Honestly though, eternal life sounds terribly dull.
Heck no! I get bored easily if I don't have the internet. What if God has a password in his Wifi? ???
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 05, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
Heck no! I get bored easily if I don't have the internet. What if God has a password in his Wifi? ???
LOL
Parental block on every internet site.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 05:35:35 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 05, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
Heck no! I get bored easily if I don't have the internet. What if God has a password in his Wifi? ???
LOL
Parental block on every internet site.
And you can forget about watching ponies. I mean, look at those faces. They are the epitome of all things evil. :P
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 05, 2012, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 05:35:35 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 05, 2012, 05:24:22 PM
Heck no! I get bored easily if I don't have the internet. What if God has a password in his Wifi? ???
LOL
Parental block on every internet site.
And you can forget about watching ponies. I mean, look at those faces. They are the epitome of all things evil. :P
God wouldnt allow it because he'd be jealous of Princess Celestia.
(actally, I compare her to god a lot, because she does nothing significant in the show. XD)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 04:53:21 PMIn the context of the fairytale...who has shown you that heaven will only be sitting aroung (like in church) worshipping God? If we take the fairytale and disect it, when God created humans, were they sitting around worshipping God 24/7? If anything, God instituted the 1 in 7 worship concept, so one can only RIGHTLY assume that if there is "church" in heaven, it would be one "day" in 7. How that will play out, I don't know. I have no clue. However another thing we can assume from our creation is what we are intrinsically(? is that the word I'm looking for?). We are curious, we learn, we build, we plant, we invent, we play...that is all normal things that in my mind will all be present in heaven...afterall, the fairytale God did create us in His image...and he creates so why wouldn't we do the same (albeit not necessarily with God-like abilities, but more as we do now)
But what do you actually see yourself doing in heaven with all that time?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
But what do you actually see yourself doing in heaven with all that time?
Me personally...not a whole lot different than life as we know it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
God wouldnt allow it because he'd be jealous of Princess Celestia.
(actally, I compare her to god a lot, because she does nothing significant in the show. XD)
I still get a kick out of the Trollestia meme. Though if you think about it, comparing the two makes more sense then it should.
My problem with being in Heaven for all of eternity, is not only to I have to kiss God's feet the whole time, but I get bored extremely easy. That and I'm sure God would have a music filter, so no more blasphemous music.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 05, 2012, 06:49:24 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
God wouldnt allow it because he'd be jealous of Princess Celestia.
(actally, I compare her to god a lot, because she does nothing significant in the show. XD)
I still get a kick out of the Trollestia meme. Though if you think about it, comparing the two makes more sense then it should.
My problem with being in Heaven for all of eternity, is not only to I have to kiss God's feet the whole time, but I get bored extremely easy. That and I'm sure God would have a music filter, so no more blasphemous music.
Haha, yes, I love Trollestia.
Heaven would be hell IMO. Anyone who thinks it sounds like a good time, I don't want them at my bday party.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 06:21:16 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
But what do you actually see yourself doing in heaven with all that time?
Me personally...not a whole lot different than life as we know it.
I can't magine that being the case.
I would guess in heaven there's no longer the same demands as life here on earth. I don't see hours out of every day being spent earning a living, repairing the house, maintaining the yard, raising the kids, running errands, paying bills, dealing with traffic, or even hours spent doing more relaxing and enjoyable stuff like surfing the web, watching football, (the American kind :)) taking a vacation, and on and on and on with all the different sort of things we do here. I expect your afterlife will be devoid of all these things and your choices for entertainment will be pretty much non-existant.
I can also make the argument that I don't believe you'd be able to continue to pursue your career or even your hobbies or interests. For example, since they died, nothing new has ever come from Charles Dickens, or Thomas Edison, or Michelangelo, or Elvis, or...anyone.
Ever.
Given how passionate these men were for their respective art, one can reasonably assume they would want to continue to pursue their "God given" talents in heaven. If that were so, then everything they do is only available in heaven which means that heaven would have to have its own publishing imprint, recording and distribution operation, and art galleries. This seems unlikely to say the least. I've never heard of heaven being a capitalist organization. If it were, it'd also make an entire line of posthumous products from all the dead talent up there available down here on earth. God would be wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice.
Just imagine a product and service line like this:
- Elvis: The 'After My Death' Album
- Salvador Dali's Posthumous Paintings Exhibition
- Heath Ledger's NEW Movie
- Hire Shakespeare to Read your Children a Bedtime StoryThe commercial possibilities are endless.
God Inc. would be bigger than Apple, Disney, e-Bay and Google, combined!
So unless all the new work from all these dead people is only being made available in heaven, I have to surmise that they can't pursue their various crafts because they're dead and that's the end of them. That's probably for the best because I imagine it would be intolerable for them to face an eternity unable to pursue their passion.
That would be like, a sort of, Hell.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 05, 2012, 06:57:56 PM
Haha, yes, I love Trollestia.
Heaven would be hell IMO. Anyone who thinks it sounds like a good time, I don't want them at my bday party.
Well jeeez, if Celestia is God, what is Luna?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 07:15:14 PM
I can't magine that being the case.
I would guess in heaven there's no longer the same demands as life here on earth. I don't see hours out of every day being spent earning a living, repairing the house, maintaining the yard, raising the kids, running errands, paying bills, dealing with traffic, or even hours spent doing more relaxing and enjoyable stuff like surfing the web, watching football, (the American kind :)) taking a vacation, and on and on and on with all the different sort of things we do here. I expect your afterlife will be devoid of all these things and your choices for entertainment will be pretty much non-existant.
But you can imagine, right? No one knows for sure and I'm simply giving my opinion on the matter. I take what I know about God and how he created us (remember in context of a fairytale). I think life on earth since creation has gone BASICALLY the way it was meant to APART from what sin causes. Please don't make me explain that. It would be too difficult and involve WAY too much.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 07:50:11 PMBut you can imagine, right? No one knows for sure and I'm simply giving my opinion on the matter.
In fact, I have a vivid imagination and I'm going to assume you have one as well. So far, I've detailed why I think there's little or nothing to do in heaven while your reply to my question "
What is there to do in heaven?" has merely been a throwaway "
Me personally...not a whole lot different than life as we know it."
That's not a reply. Please use your imagination and outline what you believe is a day in heaven...cuz if it's real, you're going to have a LOT of them. Those of us who don't believe in all this would find it fascinating to know.
I guess everyone's definition of "heaven" is different. Mine would be filled with endless anime amd sci fi cons , star trek marathons, and epic video game lounges.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
In fact, I have a vivid imagination and I'm going to assume you have one as well. So far, I've detailed why I think there's little or nothing to do in heaven while your reply to my question "What is there to do in heaven?" has merely been a throwaway "Me personally...not a whole lot different than life as we know it."
A throw away? There is no definition, nor anyone that's reported the heaven place from the fairytale...how can I give any detail on speculation?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
That's not a reply. Please use your imagination and outline what you believe is a day in heaven...cuz if it's real, you're going to have a LOT of them. Those of us who don't believe in all this would find it fascinating to know.
It's hard to imagine this would go over without the typical ridicule. It's almost evident considering your wording above. It would certainly require 100% imagination in that there is no report on what heaven is like other than a place without sin, gold streets, etc. (which is probably not literal streets of gold, but figurative)
The idea of Heaven was based on the endorphin release that you get when we worship and spend time in familiar areas of our life and childhood.
So do you want to feel good forever?
Well... the actual question is, do you want to be high forever and ever?
;-)
Quote from: superfes on January 05, 2012, 10:01:00 PM
The idea of Heaven was based on the endorphin release that you get when we worship and spend time in familiar areas of our life and childhood.
So do you want to feel good forever?
Well... the actual question is, do you want to be high forever and ever?
;-)
I guess this reply is quite in line with what I figured. I also assume we are not now speaking of the
heaven in context of the
piece of fiction known as the bible.
If you mean a high as a drug high, no. If you mean a high as in unending happiness, or removal of all pain, physiological, physical, emotional...all pain, sure. I'm game for that.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 05, 2012, 09:02:29 PMIt's hard to imagine this would go over without the typical ridicule. It's almost evident considering your wording above. It would certainly require 100% imagination in that there is no report on what heaven is like other than a place without sin, gold streets, etc. (which is probably not literal streets of gold, but figurative)
You seem to be a decent sort, AD and I save my contempt for the louder, brasher, more intolerant and judgemental of your bretheren. I can assure you it's not my intention to ridicule you. I ask out of genuine curiosity to better understand what the average Xian believes in awaiting him/her in the afterlife. Understand I'm not asking for a fact based report. No one has ever actually described for me what they think a day in heaven may be like based on what they know of their religion and what they believe god has promised them. Xians will describe in gruesome detail what they believe hell looks, smells and feels like as well as what goes on there, I just find it hard to believe that they can't convey the same information about heaven.
How does one spend one's time in such a realm? I'm curious to know what the average Xian believes life in heaven may be, however, you're clearly reticent to share whatever idea you may have on this topic so I won't press the issue further. :)
But I'm disappointed. :(
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 05, 2012, 08:03:32 PM
Please use your imagination and outline what you believe is a day in heaven...cuz if it's real, you're going to have a LOT of them. Those of us who don't believe in all this would find it fascinating to know.
I envision it as a dynamic process, in which we participate in endless creative activities, as partners with God. Perhaps other universes will be instituted. Whatever can be imagined that is good and beautiful will come into being. The kingdom of God is a dimension from which all other dimensions derive their existence, and we will participate in that process as beings created in God's image. That's how I imagine it.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 06, 2012, 12:37:39 AM
You seem to be a decent sort, AD and I save my contempt for the louder, brasher, more intolerant and judgemental of your bretheren. I can assure you it's not my intention to ridicule you. I ask out of genuine curiosity to better understand what the average Xian believes in awaiting him/her in the afterlife. Understand I'm not asking for a fact based report. No one has ever actually described for me what they think a day in heaven may be like based on what they know of their religion and what they believe god has promised them. Xians will describe in gruesome detail what they believe hell looks, smells and feels like as well as what goes on there, I just find it hard to believe that they can't convey the same information about heaven.
How does one spend one's time in such a realm? I'm curious to know what the average Xian believes life in heaven may be, however, you're clearly reticent to share whatever idea you may have on this topic so I won't press the issue further. :)
But I'm disappointed. :(
Hell: It's not a place of torment (while it is portrayed as such, much like streets of gold) it is a metaphor used to describe eternal separation from that which is the only
thing, if you will, able to sustain and/or grant life eternal. There are fires of hell, but not perpetual fire and only burning as long as there is something to burn. For one example of the interpretation or idea from within the
piece of fiction, see Jude 1:7 if you're interested.
Heaven: My opinion based solely on my personal beliefs. I don't know of anyone else that might hold the same as I've not really shared this too much. Because we are made, according to the
piece of fiction, in God's image, I believe God, while originally not human in form, sees the human form as perfect, has given humanity a mind similar to His own in many ways, a thinker, creative, loving...all the good of humanity. He put man in a garden originally before sin entered into the equation. So Man is meant to work the ground albeit prior to sin, the work less "work" and more enjoyment. After the fall, we read that things became more difficult...anyway the point is that Man is meant to be on this earth and God made this earth for man. I believe we would've progressed much to the point we are now, but maybe earlier and much more advanced up to this point at least. Man would see a need, the wheel...electricity...and everything else that man has found possible to do.
So it is in this context that I view and therefore think heaven will be much like life here now. I don't think there would be a monetary system of buying and selling, but I do think we could do all sorts of things we do now. Is there anything wrong with snow skiing? Water skiing? What about homes? The
piece of fiction mentions mansions, what was understood or meant by mansions during the time and culture of the writing, we can at least conclude some sort of dwellings. Travel...well, it doesn't seem Adam and Eve were given the ability to "fly", so maybe it won't be that we can fly like birds per se, but travel to and from planets may be quite possible in the heaven. I don't see why we could not have some sort of vehicles in heaven. What's wrong with boating, motoX, ATV's, racing...and all that goes with it. I don't see why it can't be there.
So what might a day look like in heaven? I'm not certain about sleeping as in rest, but a day might consist of family breakfast, possibly a short time of worship (after all, everyone there apparently wants to be there and does love God/Jesus) that wouldn't be an issue of boredom. I enjoy music and the praise service at my church now, I can't imagine the set up in heaven! The day starts, maybe today is a "work" day where we gather our food or we go out for some sight-seeing. Maybe a movie...hey why not. There's lots of interesting things God could show us about our "earthly" history that might be of huge interest. The big bang, dinosaurs, black holes, the subjects seem limitless. I don't really know what a day would be like. It's almost overwhelming to ponder.
I believe there will be a worship day. If God "needed" rest from creating, so we also "need" rest in Him. I don't know how days will be counted, if at all. I haven't really figured this out yet. It's all just ideas floating around my mind. There are many things that I have no answer for in reconciling for in heaven.
I hope this helps.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 06, 2012, 01:42:30 AMHell: It's not a place of torment (while it is portrayed as such, much like streets of gold) it is a metaphor used to describe eternal separation from that which is the only thing, if you will, able to sustain and/or grant life eternal. There are fires of hell, but not perpetual fire and only burning as long as there is something to burn. For one example of the interpretation or idea from within the piece of fiction, see Jude 1:7 if you're interested.
Heaven: My opinion based solely on my personal beliefs. I don't know of anyone else that might hold the same as I've not really shared this too much. Because we are made, according to the piece of fiction, in God's image, I believe God, while originally not human in form, sees the human form as perfect, has given humanity a mind similar to His own in many ways, a thinker, creative, loving...all the good of humanity. He put man in a garden originally before sin entered into the equation. So Man is meant to work the ground albeit prior to sin, the work less "work" and more enjoyment. After the fall, we read that things became more difficult...anyway the point is that Man is meant to be on this earth and God made this earth for man. I believe we would've progressed much to the point we are now, but maybe earlier and much more advanced up to this point at least. Man would see a need, the wheel...electricity...and everything else that man has found possible to do.
So it is in this context that I view and therefore think heaven will be much like life here now. I don't think there would be a monetary system of buying and selling, but I do think we could do all sorts of things we do now. Is there anything wrong with snow skiing? Water skiing? What about homes? The piece of fiction mentions mansions, what was understood or meant by mansions during the time and culture of the writing, we can at least conclude some sort of dwellings. Travel...well, it doesn't seem Adam and Eve were given the ability to "fly", so maybe it won't be that we can fly like birds per se, but travel to and from planets may be quite possible in the heaven. I don't see why we could not have some sort of vehicles in heaven. What's wrong with boating, motoX, ATV's, racing...and all that goes with it. I don't see why it can't be there.
So what might a day look like in heaven? I'm not certain about sleeping as in rest, but a day might consist of family breakfast, possibly a short time of worship (after all, everyone there apparently wants to be there and does love God/Jesus) that wouldn't be an issue of boredom. I enjoy music and the praise service at my church now, I can't imagine the set up in heaven! The day starts, maybe today is a "work" day where we gather our food or we go out for some sight-seeing. Maybe a movie...hey why not. There's lots of interesting things God could show us about our "earthly" history that might be of huge interest. The big bang, dinosaurs, black holes, the subjects seem limitless. I don't really know what a day would be like. It's almost overwhelming to ponder.
I believe there will be a worship day. If God "needed" rest from creating, so we also "need" rest in Him. I don't know how days will be counted, if at all. I haven't really figured this out yet. It's all just ideas floating around my mind. There are many things that I have no answer for in reconciling for in heaven.
I hope this helps.
Now THAT's a reply! Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
As an atheist, I can't say I agree with what you've envisioned but if I were Xian maybe I'd be right there with you on it. That's never gonna happen so I'd just like to ask
Ecurb and any other Xian on this board, if they agree with your vision. I'm curious how much agreement among the faithful there may be on their respective visions of heaven.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 06, 2012, 04:03:46 AM
Now THAT's a reply! Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
As an atheist, I can't say I agree with what you've envisioned but if I were Xian maybe I'd be right there with you on it. That's never gonna happen so I'd just like to ask Ecurb and any other Xian on this board, if they agree with your vision. I'm curious how much agreement among the faithful there may be on their respective visions of heaven.
You're welcome. My imagination can run more, but my imagination also runs into problems of which I cannot possibly know the answer to this side of that fictional promise. :)
Depends on what you think of Heaven, a place of experience or a place of being.
Quote from: iSok on January 07, 2012, 01:45:51 AM
Depends on what you think of Heaven, a place of experience or a place of being.
Please explain the difference as you see it.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 07, 2012, 01:51:19 AM
Quote from: iSok on January 07, 2012, 01:45:51 AM
Depends on what you think of Heaven, a place of experience or a place of being.
Please explain the difference as you see it.
In the beginning Reality was at once being, knowledge and bliss (
sat,
chit and
ananda of the Hindu tradition or
qudra,
hikmah and
rahma which are among the names of Allah in Islam).
Heaven is a return to that unity from our world of multiplicity. The world of experience ends and Heaven is a place where one's condition does not change, there is no longer a perception of time. The liquid soul crystallizes and does no longer perceive experience.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 06, 2012, 04:03:46 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 06, 2012, 01:42:30 AMHell: It's not a place of torment (while it is portrayed as such, much like streets of gold) it is a metaphor used to describe eternal separation from that which is the only thing, if you will, able to sustain and/or grant life eternal. There are fires of hell, but not perpetual fire and only burning as long as there is something to burn. For one example of the interpretation or idea from within the piece of fiction, see Jude 1:7 if you're interested.
Heaven: My opinion based solely on my personal beliefs. I don't know of anyone else that might hold the same as I've not really shared this too much. Because we are made, according to the piece of fiction, in God's image, I believe God, while originally not human in form, sees the human form as perfect, has given humanity a mind similar to His own in many ways, a thinker, creative, loving...all the good of humanity. He put man in a garden originally before sin entered into the equation. So Man is meant to work the ground albeit prior to sin, the work less "work" and more enjoyment. After the fall, we read that things became more difficult...anyway the point is that Man is meant to be on this earth and God made this earth for man. I believe we would've progressed much to the point we are now, but maybe earlier and much more advanced up to this point at least. Man would see a need, the wheel...electricity...and everything else that man has found possible to do.
So it is in this context that I view and therefore think heaven will be much like life here now. I don't think there would be a monetary system of buying and selling, but I do think we could do all sorts of things we do now. Is there anything wrong with snow skiing? Water skiing? What about homes? The piece of fiction mentions mansions, what was understood or meant by mansions during the time and culture of the writing, we can at least conclude some sort of dwellings. Travel...well, it doesn't seem Adam and Eve were given the ability to "fly", so maybe it won't be that we can fly like birds per se, but travel to and from planets may be quite possible in the heaven. I don't see why we could not have some sort of vehicles in heaven. What's wrong with boating, motoX, ATV's, racing...and all that goes with it. I don't see why it can't be there.
So what might a day look like in heaven? I'm not certain about sleeping as in rest, but a day might consist of family breakfast, possibly a short time of worship (after all, everyone there apparently wants to be there and does love God/Jesus) that wouldn't be an issue of boredom. I enjoy music and the praise service at my church now, I can't imagine the set up in heaven! The day starts, maybe today is a "work" day where we gather our food or we go out for some sight-seeing. Maybe a movie...hey why not. There's lots of interesting things God could show us about our "earthly" history that might be of huge interest. The big bang, dinosaurs, black holes, the subjects seem limitless. I don't really know what a day would be like. It's almost overwhelming to ponder.
I believe there will be a worship day. If God "needed" rest from creating, so we also "need" rest in Him. I don't know how days will be counted, if at all. I haven't really figured this out yet. It's all just ideas floating around my mind. There are many things that I have no answer for in reconciling for in heaven.
I hope this helps.
Now THAT's a reply! Thanks for taking the time to write it up.
As an atheist, I can't say I agree with what you've envisioned but if I were Xian maybe I'd be right there with you on it. That's never gonna happen so I'd just like to ask Ecurb and any other Xian on this board, if they agree with your vision. I'm curious how much agreement among the faithful there may be on their respective visions of heaven.
I prefer to keep my speculations about the Kingdom of God fairly brief and general, as my previous post on this subject demonstrates. We don't have a lot in the way of description from Jesus or Paul. I can't dispute AD's thoughts on the subject, but I simply prefer to not go there. Paul indicates that it's essentially greater than anything that we can imagine. Hope he's right.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 06, 2012, 01:42:30 AM
I believe God, while originally not human in form, sees the human form as perfect.
The human form is far from perfect. It is inefficient at processing organic matter, with a substantial amount being excreted as waste. It is incomplete, depending on micro-organisms in order to function. In many ways it appears more suitable for an animal that travels on all fours rather than standing up. Its limitations are many, it cannot fly, it cannot tolerate cold or hot, it is one of the weakest bodies of all the mammals, it is slow and cumbersome and takes an extremely long time for humans to reach self reliance. It has redundant parts e.g. the appendix, it cannot regenerate lost limbs. Birth complications seem higher than most animals. Other than our intelligence, there really is not much worth writing home about.
Not to mention how many daily nutrients we have to eat to stay functional. Annoying.
Quote from: Stevil on January 07, 2012, 03:27:46 AM
The human form is far from perfect. It is inefficient at processing organic matter, with a substantial amount being excreted as waste. It is incomplete, depending on micro-organisms in order to function. In many ways it appears more suitable for an animal that travels on all fours rather than standing up. Its limitations are many, it cannot fly, it cannot tolerate cold or hot, it is one of the weakest bodies of all the mammals, it is slow and cumbersome and takes an extremely long time for humans to reach self reliance. It has redundant parts e.g. the appendix, it cannot regenerate lost limbs. Birth complications seem higher than most animals. Other than our intelligence, there really is not much worth writing home about.
Are we discussing things in context of the piece of fiction or are we discussing in the context that the piece of fiction is not fiction?
Is there a better body design that any human has made a model of to show how there can be a better design rather than simply spouting off things "you" think are wrong?
It seems that this species, homo sapiens, has adapted to all these so called short-comings and compared to most species, out lives them. What is the complaint?
Which other species do you know that builds an air conditioning unit to cool itself by the flip of a switch, or makes a coat to stay warm from wind breakers, to extreme cold down jackets or better?
I ask because from a standpoint of evolution, we are the best adapted species on earth...and from the context of the piece of fiction, this body, from the point of original sin is not what it was designed. Sickness and disease... is a result of original sin.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 07, 2012, 05:24:07 PM
Are we discussing things in context of the piece of fiction or are we discussing in the context that the piece of fiction is not fiction?
Is there a better body design that any human has made a model of to show how there can be a better design rather than simply spouting off things "you" think are wrong?
It seems that this species, homo sapiens, has adapted to all these so called short-comings and compared to most species, out lives them. What is the complaint?
Which other species do you know that builds an air conditioning unit to cool itself by the flip of a switch, or makes a coat to stay warm from wind breakers, to extreme cold down jackets or better?
I ask because from a standpoint of evolution, we are the best adapted species on earth...and from the context of the piece of fiction, this body, from the point of original sin is not what it was designed. Sickness and disease... is a result of original sin.
There are an excruciatingly large amount of assertions one must give to the bible in order to go along with it.
You stated god would think the human form is perfect, I have showed why I think it is less than perfect. Our intellect allows us to overcome some of its many shortcomings.
With regards to sickness and disease, why do animals get sick and diseased?
Sickness and disease is a part of nature, it has no dependance on sin let alone original sin.
Quote from: Stevil on January 07, 2012, 07:58:47 PM
There are an excruciatingly large amount of assertions one must give to the bible in order to go along with it.
You stated god would think the human form is perfect, I have showed why I think it is less than perfect. Our intellect allows us to overcome some of its many shortcomings.
With regards to sickness and disease, why do animals get sick and diseased?
Sickness and disease is a part of nature, it has no dependance on sin let alone original sin.
I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.
Within the context of the piece of fiction, it is because of man's sin and because of man, the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, earth...suffers also.
Sickness and disease are a part of nature...a part of nature because of sin. You don't believe it, but can you "believe" in context of the piece of fiction...which I thought we were discussing under.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 07, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.
I'm trying AD. I need to work out which are assertions and which are items I am allowed to think about and potentially relate to what I term as reality.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 07, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
Within the context of the piece of fiction, it is because of man's sin and because of man, the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, earth...suffers also.
Sickness and disease are a part of nature...a part of nature because of sin. You don't believe it, but can you "believe" in context of the piece of fiction...which I thought we were discussing under.
OK then, within this mythical god created world everyone suffers because humans (god's creation) sought knowledge (fruit from the tree of knowledge)
Please go on.
Am I allowed to ask why animals get disease such as foot and mouth now in this mythical world?
It is not because humans are now behaving nasty and creating the foot and mouth disease. Who created the disease, why do the animals suffer now, it seems unrelated to human acts of sin.
So, have I asked the wrong question?
How come AD has gone silent?
Sorry. The fun of the wknd kept me away.
Quote from: Stevil on January 07, 2012, 10:58:19 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 07, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.
I'm trying AD. I need to work out which are assertions and which are items I am allowed to think about and potentially relate to what I term as reality.
I understand. Again, think of it as a discussion on the book(s) themselves and not whether you believe what is therein as actual truth, but simply truth as seen by the book(s).
Quote from: StevilOK then, within this mythical god created world everyone suffers because humans (god's creation) sought knowledge (fruit from the tree of knowledge)
Please go on.
To go into detail about this would be another book in itself...however in short, yes. The humans seeked "knowledge" that they already owned. It's much like a child. This happened with my daughter and I'll use it as an analogy. My daughter loved to take baths and liked the water a certain temperature. It was cute. We would fill the tub and she would touch the water with her hand and say, "No, too cold." or No, too hot." So she understood the concept of cold and hot. She also loved to stand in the kitchen and "help". Upon pulling out a just finished batch of cookies from the oven, she was told not to touch becasue they were really hot. Well, she couldn't resist and touched the melting chocolate and it stuck to her finger and for a split second she was happy, but the next instant she realized she was being burned. So from that point on, she never touched things that came out of the oven, nor did she have a problem obeying about hot things again.
Now we can say that she knew all along what hot meant and she knew what it meant to be "burned", maybe not exactly, but the discomfort of "hot" was known. The lesson is learned. Knowledge was gained. However one can never take the pain experience away, nor can the scars be removed (my daughter was not scarred). The 'pain' representing the curses sin brings and the 'scars' representing that humanity is mortal apart from God.
This goes so much deeper in context of the bible. However I think (hope) this explains the basics of it well.
Quote from: StevilAm I allowed to ask why animals get disease such as foot and mouth now in this mythical world?
It is not because humans are now behaving nasty and creating the foot and mouth disease. Who created the disease, why do the animals suffer now, it seems unrelated to human acts of sin.
I don't know why, but I do know that all sickness, disease and ultimately, death is a result of sin. It will one day be removed completely and will be no more.
So before humans were around on this mythical planet, no animals or plants got sick, none died?
Carnivorous animals did not eat other animals, herbivorous animals did not eat plants, scavenger animals did not feed off the dead, and parasitic animals did not feed off the living?
There were no baby animals, all created animals just grew to a certain, ideal age and then lived a happy and safe life?
Any fossil records, if people get into paleontology on this mythical world would reflect this and would show that no creature ever experienced broken bones or bone disorders before humans came along.
Everything was perfect and safe for all.
But then people came along discovered knowledge of the world which somehow introduced sin and death and disease, and hunger for meat, starvation etc. Now animals that might have been used to jumping off a large cliff as a quick way of getting to the bottom, will have found that all of a sudden this act kills them. Land animals that used to enjoy walking along the seabed to view the marine animals will now have found that this kills them. Animals unsuited for the Arctic would all of sudden discovered it is too cold and died etc. All of a sudden actions have consequences for all.
Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?
Once again you're pulling this into reality when you don't believe it to be real. I'm trying to discuss this (as best I can) with you under the context of this being simply a piece of fiction.
In short, no. Death did exist prior to humans. How it all fits in EXACTLY is a mystery. It's not part of the scope of the piece of fiction to explain those details as important they may seem to some. It's accepted that a time will come when everything will make sense just like there are things we don't understand about our universe but accept that Science will at some point be able to answer these.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 09, 2012, 06:53:50 PM
In short, no. Death did exist prior to humans. How it all fits in EXACTLY is a mystery. It's not part of the scope of the piece of fiction to explain those details as important they may seem to some. It's accepted that a time will come when everything will make sense just like there are things we don't understand about our universe but accept that Science will at some point be able to answer these.
OK, so the details are unimportant, if the story don't make sense in relation to what science thinks is knows and what the story states then we just accept that science has not advanced enough yet to solve the mystery of the story. We have faith that the story is correct, but no faith in our own ability to reconcile, we just accept and move forwards with the story.
Can we move on to this next bit
Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?
Quote from: Stevil on January 09, 2012, 06:59:39 PM
Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?
For one, the covenant that was previously (OT) based on a promise, is now based on that promise fulfilled. Where the OT believer looked forward to a Savior in faith, we now look back to that promised Savior with that same faith. Nothing has changed in how a person is saved.
Christ, being the ultimate sacrificial lamb, by His death, put an end to the ceremonial (symbolic) system of sacrifice. He fulfilled the Law in that He kept it perfectly. He didn't do away with the law, just that the law no longer testifies to our sinfulness if we are in Christ.
Many things changed...I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 03:56:21 PM
Christ, being the ultimate sacrificial lamb, by His death, put an end to the ceremonial (symbolic) system of sacrifice. He fulfilled the Law in that He kept it perfectly. He didn't do away with the law, just that the law no longer testifies to our sinfulness if we are in Christ.
Many things changed...I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
Well, the death of JC seems to be something profound to Christians, to me it is inevitable that a human will die, so more to be expected rather than profound. But I presume there was some purpose such that JC had to be put to death. Some Christians state that JC died for us. You have stated this. I objected and basically this is why we are having this conversation.
So I would like to know what the significance of his death is and how anyone, human or god benefited from this "sacrifice". Also I would like to know how it can be claimed as a sacrifice when it seemed to be a punishment rather than a sacrifice to the gods. The Romans at the time believed in Zeus didn't they? Wouldn't they have sacrificed JC to Zeus if it were a god sacrifice?
Quote from: Stevil on January 10, 2012, 06:01:37 PM
Well, the death of JC seems to be something profound to Christians, to me it is inevitable that a human will die, so more to be expected rather than profound.
If it is inevitable that humans die, why do we make heroes out of those that put their lives on the line for our freedom? Are you saying that we should not care whether someone has given their leg or arm or their life in the fight for freedom? What about simply the fight the nation finds itself in politically? Has this soldier paid any less of a price for the beliefs of a "nation" whether it be freedom or oil? These are good (in the great scheme) things to die for aren't they? Who makes the death of a soldier in a recent war any less of a sacrifice than that of another war(s)?
Quote from: StevilBut I presume there was some purpose such that JC had to be put to death. Some Christians state that JC died for us. You have stated this. I objected and basically this is why we are having this conversation.
Whether you like it or not, in the context of the piece of fiction, JC died for all. The peoples of that piece of fiction can object until the day they die. The "fact" remains, its been done. The option is there for all. It can be thrown away and it can be redeemed fully if one changes their mind later.
Quote from: StevilSo I would like to know what the significance of his death is and how anyone, human or god benefited from this "sacrifice".
In the context of the piece of fiction, either the one that has sinned pays for his/her own sin and dies the death of a sinner (complete separation from God/annihilation) or he/she claims faith in Christ and then is (legally) given life because their debt to sin has been paid by God. Salvation is a gift one must accept. If "you" don't accept it, it can't be given.
Quote from: StevilAlso I would like to know how it can be claimed as a sacrifice when it seemed to be a punishment rather than a sacrifice to the gods. The Romans at the time believed in Zeus didn't they? Wouldn't they have sacrificed JC to Zeus if it were a god sacrifice?
Punishment for what? Even Pilate washed his hands of Christ's death and said he found no wrong doing in him. It was the Romans that physically put Christ on the cross, but it was the Jewish Pharisees and Sanhedrin that condemened him. There is no claim whatsoever by the Romans that they were placing this Jesus on a cross as a sacrifice to Zeus. Where did you get that from?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 10, 2012, 06:01:37 PM
Well, the death of JC seems to be something profound to Christians, to me it is inevitable that a human will die, so more to be expected rather than profound.
If it is inevitable that humans die, why do we make heroes out of those that put their lives on the line for our freedom? Are you saying that we should not care whether someone has given their leg or arm or their life in the fight for freedom? What about simply the fight the nation finds itself in politically? Has this soldier paid any less of a price for the beliefs of a "nation" whether it be freedom or oil? These are good (in the great scheme) things to die for aren't they? Who makes the death of a soldier in a recent war any less of a sacrifice than that of another war(s)?
Fair enough point, but it is obvious when a hero dies, what they have died for. A person may have died racing into a burning building trying to rescue people that were trapped. It is not obvious to me what the character Jesus was doing or if he was aware of the dangers involved.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: StevilBut I presume there was some purpose such that JC had to be put to death. Some Christians state that JC died for us. You have stated this. I objected and basically this is why we are having this conversation.
Whether you like it or not, in the context of the piece of fiction, JC died for all. The peoples of that piece of fiction can object until the day they die. The "fact" remains, its been done. The option is there for all. It can be thrown away and it can be redeemed fully if one changes their mind later.
Here you are confusing the real world with this fictional world. I exist in the real world not the fictional one. The Jesus character died for people existing in the fictional world not the real one. There are many issues when trying to relate this fictional world with the real one.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: StevilSo I would like to know what the significance of his death is and how anyone, human or god benefited from this "sacrifice".
In the context of the piece of fiction, either the one that has sinned pays for his/her own sin and dies the death of a sinner (complete separation from God/annihilation) or he/she claims faith in Christ and then is (legally) given life because their debt to sin has been paid by God. Salvation is a gift one must accept. If "you" don't accept it, it can't be given.
This is not clear to me. Many assertions about "legally", about death and life, I feel in this context it is difficult to know what you mean by life.
These people are still alive before or after JC's death. It doesn't seem any different. There is still sin, and disease before and after.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 10, 2012, 07:28:07 PM
Quote from: StevilAlso I would like to know how it can be claimed as a sacrifice when it seemed to be a punishment rather than a sacrifice to the gods. The Romans at the time believed in Zeus didn't they? Wouldn't they have sacrificed JC to Zeus if it were a god sacrifice?
Punishment for what? Even Pilate washed his hands of Christ's death and said he found no wrong doing in him. It was the Romans that physically put Christ on the cross, but it was the Jewish Pharisees and Sanhedrin that condemened him. There is no claim whatsoever by the Romans that they were placing this Jesus on a cross as a sacrifice to Zeus. Where did you get that from?
Christians often state that Jesus died for us, like it was a big sacrifice. But his death was not a blood sacrifice to the gods and he didn't seem to be risking his life for any great cause, so I don't really get it.
Quote from: Stevil on January 10, 2012, 11:51:00 PM
Fair enough point, but it is obvious when a hero dies, what they have died for. A person may have died racing into a burning building trying to rescue people that were trapped. It is not obvious to me what the character Jesus was doing or if he was aware of the dangers involved.
It seems to me that whatever reading you've done in that piece of fiction was restricted to that which you felt gave you enough reason to reject it, be it sex, rape, incest and everything else in that piece of fiction. It doesn't seem you know anything of the fictional story that results from any careful study. Now you might ask, "Why study that which I don't believe is true?" I refer you back to Thains Book - Guide to Tolkien's Middle-earth (http://www.tuckborough.net/) where it is obviously a story of myth and fiction, yet some have gone and thouroughly studied it, yet had no belief it was true.
Quote from: StevilHere you are confusing the real world with this fictional world. I exist in the real world not the fictional one. The Jesus character died for people existing in the fictional world not the real one. There are many issues when trying to relate this fictional world with the real one.
Once again, I'm trying to discuss with you this book of fiction in context of the book being exactly as you say, fiction. I made it clear in that
in context of the piece of fiction, JC died for all. I'm explaining to you that this is fact as the piece of fiction goes.
Quote from: StevilThis is not clear to me. Many assertions about "legally", about death and life, I feel in this context it is difficult to know what you mean by life.
It's quite simple. Think of a court room. A plaintiff and a defendant. The plaintiff is the Satan character, the defendant is a human. The plaintiff clearly and rightly shows that the defendant has sinned. (every human has). Therefore there is not much back and forth as the Judge, God, clearly sees the human is guilty of sin. The gavel drops , and the sentence read. Death is the punishment for sin. But instead of the human being lead out to death, the same Judge then says to the human, "Here is my son, JC. He has already died, innocent of sin, the death required to pay for your sin. If you place your faith in him in that his death replaces yours, you may go free. It is a gift. Your choice.
Quote from: StevilThese people are still alive before or after JC's death. It doesn't seem any different. There is still sin, and disease before and after.
Because the plan of salvation is finished when JC died. All that was required to save the believing sinner was done at that fictional cross. Whether one dies a human death is of no consequence. ALL will be alive again to face judgment. The second death, after judgment, is the death that no person comes back from. One either pays the penalty of sin, complete annhihilation, or one puts his/her faith in JC that he paid that death for you. The end of the fictional story has not been written so we can't know why God hasn't already come and removed disease, suffering, death and ultimaltely sin.
Quote from: StevilChristians often state that Jesus died for us, like it was a big sacrifice. But his death was not a blood sacrifice to the gods and he didn't seem to be risking his life for any great cause, so I don't really get it.
Which brings me back full circle to the first point above. Either you have or haven't read and studied the piece of fiction. (I think you have claimed you're read it, I could be wrong)
My son has to do book reports on whatever books he chooses for his English class in high school. He was supposed to be doing his report and was just sitting at his desk in his room with his head in his hands. I asked what the problem was, "Didn't you read the book?" "Yes.". "Well, it shouldn't be that difficult to give a report on what the book was about, in a few paragraphs." "I read it, but I wasn't paying attention when reading it." *sigh*
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 08:52:35 PM
Now you might ask, "Why study that which I don't believe is true?" I refer you back to Thains Book - Guide to Tolkien's Middle-earth (http://www.tuckborough.net/) where it is obviously a story of myth and fiction, yet some have gone and thouroughly studied it, yet had no belief it was true.
I would guess the people studying Tokien's books find then fascinating and hence worthy of exploring further.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 08:52:35 PM
It's quite simple. Think of a court room. A plaintiff and a defendant. The plaintiff is the Satan character, the defendant is a human. The plaintiff clearly and rightly shows that the defendant has sinned. (every human has). Therefore there is not much back and forth as the Judge, God, clearly sees the human is guilty of sin. The gavel drops , and the sentence read. Death is the punishment for sin. But instead of the human being lead out to death, the same Judge then says to the human, "Here is my son, JC. He has already died, innocent of sin, the death required to pay for your sin. If you place your faith in him in that his death replaces yours, you may go free. It is a gift. Your choice.
You state "Your choice" as if I am a character in the book.
If I were a character in the book, given my own personal values I would not accept the death of another person as payment for my sin. It is horrendous to think this way. But then again under the gun like that I might lie to the judge just so that he won't annihilate me, there doesn't seem to be much of a choice.
I find it extremely hard to put myself into the shoes of a character in this mythical world as described by the bible. It is so foreign, so illogical, so grotesque, quite horrid actually, I would hate for this mythical world to exist in reality.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 11, 2012, 08:52:35 PM
Which brings me back full circle to the first point above. Either you have or haven't read and studied the piece of fiction. (I think you have claimed you're read it, I could be wrong)
I read the first 5 or 6 pages, it alienated me so I stopped reading, but of course I have heard many stories, I do live in a Christian influenced country.
"Put your faith in my son or die. "
It seems you can also replace that with "give up your money or die" "take off your clothes or die" etc.
What a nice guy 'god' is. e__e
And I'm with Stevil on I am glad this bs isn't real.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 12, 2012, 11:44:35 PM
"Put your faith in my son or die...because I love you "
Fixed it for ya.
Quote from: Gawen on January 13, 2012, 12:34:28 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 12, 2012, 11:44:35 PM
"Put your faith in my son or die...because I love you "
Fixed it for ya.
That's what you're here for. ^__^ Thank you.