Happy Atheist Forum

I've been thinking about if the terms strong and weak in relation to atheism are really that necessary. When we determine whether or not we believe in something such as gnomes we don't say we are agnostic towards them in the light of a complete lack of evidence, we just say they don't exist. I guess it could be possible that at a later date some evidence for gnomes could reveal itself, but we would still think it quite odd for someone to say they are agnostic towards gnomes.

Thinking of it in this way, why does it make sense to divide atheism into strong and weak distinctions? At most the distinctions are representations of how sure a person is in claiming there isn't a god. But, I would think that if a person is willing to claim they don't believe in a god they are probably rather sure of that decision. Basically, the two distinctions are so close to each other it is almost redundant. I've also noticed that very few can actually agree on what the two terms mean...so are they really necessary? I've come to think that maybe they end up confusing people more than anything.

I'm still thinking about it, but for now I just consider myself an atheist and don't worry with trying to tack on additional descriptions. The only time any sort of need for them appears seems to be in debate and then you usually have to describe what you mean by them anyway.

Thoughts?

I always held the belief that a weak atheist/agnostic was the quiet, passive type, whilst the strong one was the agressive, in your face type. And then there was the broad spectrum in between.

The distinction between strong and weak exists I believe because of the negative stigma surrounding the term "atheism".

-You're an atheist?

-Uh.... yeah... but I'm just a weak atheist! I'm not saying there's definitely no god!

It's that last bit of guilt that people have trouble abandoning. It's like how almost every Christian who deconverts to atheism has a period where they refer to themselves as an agnostic, not ready to accept the term atheist.

yea i believe the same, people will call themselves weak athiests basically because they dont wanna get the fire and brimstone talk :)

I think it's partially the aversion of evangelizing as well. I don't want to push my beliefs (or non-beliefs) on others, because I HATE it when Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. do it to me. But I also want to introduce people to why I think the way I do. Despite the horrible stereotyping generalizations, I don't want people that I KNOW are intelligent and rational believing in sky pixies just because everyone else does. Besides, the more we talk about it, the less of a stigma it becomes. But I don't want to be accused of "forcing" my non-religion on others. It's a balancing act I have yet to master.
I try to talk about it without actually announcing I'm an atheist, but then I feel like a coward. Well, I am a coward. I have yet to announce on anything publicly that I'm atheist except, well, some atheist forums. Not very brave of me, right? I think that might be part of weak atheism as well, cowardice. I wanted to put this link and some others on my Facebook, but I need to make sure my brother won't tell my mom first.

Quote from: "Court"I try to talk about it without actually announcing I'm an atheist, but then I feel like a coward. Well, I am a coward. I have yet to announce on anything publicly that I'm atheist except, well, some atheist forums. Not very brave of me, right?

The good thing about being atheist, is that you can be ashamed of it, and not be in trouble with some god for doing so :) Why should I be ashamed of holding rational thought? Why shouldn't they be ashamed for believing in silly myths and fairy tales, and/or thinking the earth is 6000 years old, or that devils are flying around the sky making people do bad things?

I think what it boils down to is social pressure. No one wants to be ostracized, but think about who it is that might look down on you. Wouldn't it be the people who believe in the silly superstitions? What do we care what they think?

If a Christian ever dares to take me on in person, he's getting one sentence of my belief system for every one he gives me of his. We'll see who ends up weeping silently when all is said and done

I think there is a difference between being ashamed of being an atheist and being afraid to tell people.  A person can be very proud of their rational position yet fear the reaction they may receive from less rational individuals.

I have a unspoken policy about not bringing up religion around classmates.  It's too personal of a subject and since my classes are studio based we have to be able to work together.  Also, since they aren't preaching to me I figure I should return the favor and not tell them why I think their beliefs are nothing more than ancient myths.

[derail]
I'm still not sure how to handle it around family.  None of the family I see on a regular basis are fundies...so I don't see a point in challenging their beliefs.  My mom has made a couple comments about a bitchy atheist coworker of hers as if being an evil bitch is a trait associated with all atheists.  My sister then of coarse chimed in because she pretty much believes everything my mom says about religious issues.  It was a bad time to say something like "well, do you think I'm an evil bitch..." (we were out shopping just before christmas) so I just said that I have a lot of atheist friends who have outstanding moral character and that it wasn't good to judge a whole group off the actions of one person.  I also probably looked a little pissed...and the conversation quickly came to a halt.  There have been a couple other times when religious subjects have come up around my mother...but I wasn't in the mood to have to explain why I don't believe in god...so I just gave her my opinion on the theology being discussed.  The last time we talked I told her that either all religions are right or they are all wrong because no loving god would allow so many wrong religions to exist.  She kinda laughed then said she was glad that I'm such a critical thinker.  So, I think I've laid some smooth foundations for coming out of the atheist closet to my mother.  

My dad's not very religious and already knows I'm not a christian.  He asked me one time if I "still believed in that jesus bullshit" .  So that was about the only time we have ever come close to discussing religion other than back when he use to have to keep up a christian front to please my mother.  
[/derail]

Anyway, when the conversation does come up, around people other than family, I have no problem saying I'm an atheist.  Depending on how religious the person is I may lead up to saying so with my opinion on organized religions.  But will always say I'm an atheist if asked directly or if there is no reason to lay out some sort of groundwork first.  I've found that (fundamentalists aside) no one really cares if I'm an atheist or not.  At most they will ask question about why then maybe tell me why they think I'm wrong.  If someone happens to get too emotional about it I'll tell them that we can continue the conversation when they are able to discuss calmly and rationally.  (I handle it a little bit differently if it's a case of a theist seeking out atheists to set them straight).

You know, I try not to bring it up that often, but all anyone talks about here is god and jesus and how wonderful christianity is. It's kind of offensive because they seem to think that everyone is the same and should believe the same things, and I'm just tired of keeping my mouth shut. It's a good thing I'm not aiming to please anymore, because most people here see atheists as immoral, kitten-sacrificing sinners who will corrupt them. I'm very outspoken about everything else, so it's difficult for me to tell people when they get on the "praise god!" route of conversation.

My mom is not a fundie, but she's getting kind of close. I don't talk to my dad, so I don't really care what he thinks. My mom and I are so close, though, that it makes it really difficult not to talk about something so important.

I just think that the more mainstream we make it, the less of a stigma atheism will have. I refuse to avoid the subject anymore, and I refuse to be afraid of stepping on anyone's toes. It's ridiculous that I can be accosted by church-pushers in the student center, but I can't even tell my friends I'm an atheist.

I find the difficulties in family situations, more than anywhere else. I'm a father of four sons, with a devout Catholic wife. I was raised in that church and married in it when I was still a believer. Although that's not very accurate, because I always had doubts and never really bought into it all. Just went along because of societal and family pressures.

Anyway, it's difficult with family. I try not to be pushy with them, especially the kids. But I don't lie when asked about beliefs, and my kids ask all the time about various things in religion and science. I tell them to read the Bible and ask questions about it. Always ask questions. Question everything.

It's a delicate balancing act, but I do love my wife, and she knows I don't need to be a Christian (or of any religion) to be a good human being. One day I may get her converted...who knows?! LOL!

The biggest pain is my older brother and his ridiculously "Super-Catholic" wife. She actually had the stones to tell me I couldn't be cremated and have my ashes scattered over the ocean after my death because it's against the church's beliefs. I was tactful about it, but told her to piss off. Shit. If anything, she should have been against polluting the ocean with my dust!

She got the hint.

Quote from: "Court"It's a good thing I'm not aiming to please anymore, because most people here see atheists as immoral, kitten-sacrificing sinners who will corrupt them.

What!? So you're saying that you're an atheist yet you don't sacrifice kittens? I am excommunicating you from my non-religion.

I haven't had any problem being completely open about my atheism with my friends and acquaintances, even when I first shed my beliefs. I get different responses but usually just the "agree to disagree" thing. No one is really preaching at me, which is great. A few people seemed to have walked away from their discussions with me a little more open-minded about different opinions though.

My mom and I had a long discussion about religion shortly after I left and I didn't feel the need to mask or even water-down my opinions at all. At first I think she was a bit worried that I was losing my faith and didn't understand that I wasn't "losing my faith", I had no faith left at all. When she realized that all my points were valid and rock solid, she didn't seem to have a problem with my beliefs. It was an extremely liberating experience, because I don't have to sidestep controversial arguments around family anymore (atleast not my immediate family, anyway).

McQ, love the signature. I've seen every episode of Bullshit! and never miss an episode of Penn Radio.

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "Court"It's a good thing I'm not aiming to please anymore, because most people here see atheists as immoral, kitten-sacrificing sinners who will corrupt them.

What!? So you're saying that you're an atheist yet you don't sacrifice kittens? I am excommunicating you from my non-religion.

Aww, poor kittens.

Haha... Reminds me of:

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marok.org%2FArte%2FMix%2Fgodkills.jpg&hash=0bde7ccf2d4371c2b16277b7d44d958970c4d71e)

See? Don't worry it's not the atheists killing the kittens -- it's God.

And me, indirectly...

Oh my god, I totally have a facebook group with that picture (only someone put McDonald M's on the little chicken nugget looking things) that's called "Every time you eat McDonalds, God kills a kitten."

Edit: I totally missed that "and me, indirectly" bit the first time. Lmao now, though.

Ahh, Domo-kun. The most magical of creatures. If only we knew how he spied on our junk.

Every time someone posts that picture, a ninja chops the head off of a kitten and doesn't even care.

Think of the kittens.

Quote from: "Aullios"Every time someone posts that picture, a ninja chops the head off of a kitten and doesn't even care.
Think of the kittens. (emphasis added)

I like that the need was felt to add that they don't care.

Ninjas are carrying out God's will?

Dude duh. The only thing worse than Ninjas are Midget Ninjas and Dwarf Pirates!!! bad things happen when these two collide.

There is a point I think when one realises one is an atheist and goes through an 'evangelical' period.

I am at the moment in discussion elsewhere and it seems the 'don't knows' and agnostics reckon (we ) atheists show no humility and display complete arrogance.

Who's fu**ing arrogant?  

I quite like the notion that you can't insult an atheist in the way you can a credulous believer. And I seem to have to spend a lot of my time stating atheism is not a religion (although the credulous would love it to be)

From WIKI; I like these definitions.  What I highlighted is what I perceive as the main distinction:

Weak atheism (also called negative atheism) is the lack of belief in the existence of deities, [highlight=red]without a commitment to the necessary non-existence of deities[/highlight].

Strong atheism or gnostic atheism, is the philosophical position that no deity exists. It is a form of explicit atheism, meaning that it consciously rejects theism.  It is contrasted with weak atheism, which is the lack or absence of belief in deities, without the additional claim that deities do not exist.  The strong atheist positively asserts, at the very least, that no deities exist, and may go further and claim that the existence of certain deities is logically impossible.

Weak agnosticism, or empirical agnosticism, is the belief that the existence or nonexistence of deities is currently unknown, but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until more evidence is available.

Strong agnosticism is the belief that it is impossible for humans to know whether or not any deities exist. It is a broader view than weak agnosticism, which states that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is unknown but not necessarily unknowable.

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/atheist.htm (http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/atheist.htm)

ok, I realise that most of you have probably heard this argument before, in many a different form, maybe.

Still, what do you think of it?

I hate that position. It's plain ridiculous to say "There are no atheists."
It is possible to claim there is no god in the same way it is logically possible to claim there is no Santa. We can't know this to an absolute certainty, can we? We cannot prove there is no Santa. And you can't prove there isn't an Invisible Pink Unicorn in my backyard. But, considering the complete lack of evidence proving her existence, you can logically say you don't believe in my unicorn. In the same way, I can logically say I don't believe in god. In fact, I can say I believe all gods are man-made. This doesn't require me to know everything, because my position could change with the presentation of evidence for the existence of god. An atheist is not like a christian in that an atheist is not likely to stick stubbornly to a position for which "faith" is required instead of evidence.

Didn't Ray Cuntfort and Cock Cameron make this claim on the Gay Master?

Quote from: "onlyme"http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/atheist.htm

ok, I realise that most of you have probably heard this argument before, in many a different form, maybe.

Still, what do you think of it?

Yes, I've seen it before.  A similar argument could be used to state that there aren't any theists and that everyone is actually agnostic...but that argument would be just as faulty.

Additionally, since being an atheist doesn't mean one has knowledge that no gods exist...the entire argument for why atheists don't exist fails.  Also, as Court stated, for one to say they don't believe in god is equatable with saying one doesn't believe in Santa.  Yet, no one would say they are agnostic towards the existence of Santa...that's simply absurd.

We should all join the Heaven Net forum and spam thier topics with our opinions. lets see what ridiculous arguments we get.

oh, and some questions, what is that little bar thingy under my name for? and how do you add your zodiac sign? i know I'm a new member, but how do you become a "valued contributor", or something else?

You get your zodiac, I think, by putting in your birthday. Your level (the bar under your name) changes according to how many posts you put up. I think you're only a New Member until after 5 posts or something.

Quote from: "McQ"I find the difficulties in family situations, more than anywhere else. I'm a father of four sons, with a devout Catholic wife. I was raised in that church and married in it when I was still a believer. Although that's not very accurate, because I always had doubts and never really bought into it all. Just went along because of societal and family pressures.

Anyway, it's difficult with family. I try not to be pushy with them, especially the kids. But I don't lie when asked about beliefs, and my kids ask all the time about various things in religion and science. I tell them to read the Bible and ask questions about it. Always ask questions. Question everything.

It's a delicate balancing act, but I do love my wife, and she knows I don't need to be a Christian (or of any religion) to be a good human being. One day I may get her converted...who knows?! LOL!

The biggest pain is my older brother and his ridiculously "Super-Catholic" wife. She actually had the stones to tell me I couldn't be cremated and have my ashes scattered over the ocean after my death because it's against the church's beliefs. I was tactful about it, but told her to piss off. Shit. If anything, she should have been against polluting the ocean with my dust!

She got the hint.

McQ, from my perspective, a catholic is not the same as a Christian. No offense to you or your wife.   As for being a good human being, this reminds me of a parable of Jesus, the good samaritan, where a so called priest of God passed by on the other side, while an 'enemy' attended to another suffering human being.   It's not what we preach, but what we do in the real world that counts.  People are too quick to preach and yet not actually live up to what they preach and believe, if indeed they believe it in the first place.  It's all about loving God, and therefore, as an inescapable consequence, loving all men as as equal to yourself, and treating them as such, for they are all God's children.  Treat all as you would like to be treated yourself.  That is what I try to live by.

Wait what?! Catholics are Christians, end of story. Catholics are where most of you Protestants get your religion from. Didn't Jesus say only good seed bears good fruit? If that's so then that means you are either bad fruit like your bad seed (Catholicism) or you just are like all the other protestants and worship Satan. (just kidding, he plays poker with me and said he wouldn't want you sissies worshipping him)

Though I have to admit the new pope looks evil. Must be all that Hitler Youth training he received.

A Christian is someone who beleives Jesus was Christ.  Catholics are Christians but not all Christians are Catholics.

Well said laetustheos.  For anyone who cares:

C. 4 BC: Jesus of Nazareth is born in the town of Bethlehem.  Although the calculations of Dionysius Exiguus put the birth of Jesus in the year that in consequence is called AD 1, history places his birth more likely some time between 6 and 4 BC.
 
C. AD 30: Major preachings of Jesus, such as the Sermon on the Mount. The teachings of Jesus were later spread by several Apostles, and formed much of the material of the Gospels.

C. AD 33: Jesus of Nazareth is crucified by Roman Empire authorities after Jewish leaders in Jerusalem accuse Jesus of blasphemy. Instructed his followers to baptize and form disciples who would constitute his Church, with Saint Peter as its leader, a position that passed to the Bishop of Rome, later called the Pope.

C. 110: Ignatius of Antioch uses the term Catholic Church in a letter to the church at Smyrna (Date disputed, some insist it was a forgery written in 250 or later. Others insist he merely meant "catholic", small "c", as in Universal.)

So the term Catholic was not used until at least 110 AD.

Churches make their eventual split after 313 AD after the Counsel of Nicea and formulation of the Nicean creed into Eastern Orthodox, Catholic and so on.

I don't agree that catholics are Christians, generally. How can they be Christian when they worship the pope as equal to God on earth, and infallible?  And they also worship Mary ( a human being), as well as statues, saints, etc?

No, I believe that most catholics, the everyday ones, though sincere, are deceived.  The blame for this lies with the catholic church.

Bigmac

Ha ha.  I agree that the pope DOES look evil.  I've never said this before to anybody, but I have often thought it!  Amazing.  I'm not saying he IS evil, mind.  

Seriously, I don't think the pope is The Antichrist as such, but that he, along with his 'flock' are seriously deceived by the catholic church.

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. I was briefly a Catholic and we didn't worship the Pope. He is the head of the church. It's just like a Preacher at a church except his flock is international. We also didn't worship statues, we asked for their guidance since they were considered men of God and we're good to tap into their wisdom.

You know what, onlyme, you sound just like Jack Chick.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I was briefly a Catholic and we didn't worship the Pope. He is the head of the church. It's just like a Preacher at a church except his flock is international. We also didn't worship statues, we asked for their guidance since they were considered men of God and we're good to tap into their wisdom.

I was a Roman Catholic for 18 years.  The Pope is considered infallible, meaning he is without sin and cannot make a mistake, but he is not worshipped.  Saints and Mother Mary are prayed to for guidance, not worshipped.

Catholics believe in the Holy Trinity, God in Three Persons, however Jesus is not worshipped.  Only God.

Man, I haven't thought about that shit in a long time.

Exactly. Of course any stump-jumping Jethro automatically assumes Catholic worship Mary or the Pope or the Saints. Guidance is not the same as worshipping someone. If you seek guidance from your mom or dad, you aren't worshipping them.

I am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.  I think that being an atheist is like going through a valve, or like a door closing.  You either are or you are not.  However, there are variations on a theme, and Satanism is one of those.
Regie Satanas
Ave Satanas
Hail Satan

QuoteI am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.

how do you figure that? i dont worship the idea or symbolism of a deity.

QuoteHail Satan

however you do look to a deity or the image of one. is this worshipping him all the same? would that be like me not believing in christ yet praying to him?

i think you might have atheism confused with... combating... religion as a whole. An atheist is someone who doesn’t believe in any god or gods or goddesses.  Everything else is purely individual beliefs.

Quote from: "venomfangx"I am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.  

Lol, I'm sorry but if you think following a strange philosophy that basically just makes fun of Christians makes you an uber atheist you don't know what atheist means.

Not sure if you are aware of what you are saying.  I said nothing about making fun of Christians, and neither is it a strange philosophy: with due respect it would seem you do not understand but appear to have pre conceived ideas of what constitutes atheistic satanism.  However, with the comment I made one would not expect anyone to do any research.  We are Satanists who are atheists.  Satan is not some magical mysterious being because as an entity he does not exist any more than God.  He is within us, what Freud called the "Id".  We are quite different to the theistic satanists who are basically devil worshipers. I thought I was a mere atheist until I got seduced by the dark side of the force so to speak.
Cheers

Quote from: "venomfangx"Not sure if you are aware of what you are saying.  I said nothing about making fun of Christians, and neither is it a strange philosophy: with due respect it would seem you do not understand but appear to have pre conceived ideas of what constitutes atheistic satanism.  However, with the comment I made one would not expect anyone to do any research.  We are Satanists who are atheists.  Satan is not some magical mysterious being because as an entity he does not exist any more than God.  He is within us, what Freud called the "Id".  We are quite different to the theistic satanists who are basically devil worshipers. I thought I was a mere atheist until I got seduced by the dark side of the force so to speak.
Cheers

Look, I support your right to let your freak flag fly and I understand the belief that the only real source of power and guidance is the self.  I get it.  The only issue I see with you is that you just seem pretentious.  This comment:

QuoteI am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.

is pretentious.  You're not any 'more' of an atheist than anyone else because you prescribe to some dogmatic philosophy outlining the power of the self.  There is no such thing as not believing in something more than someone else.  One you don't believe, you've hit ultimate zero.  When you claim that following some dude and structuring your life around someone else's ideas is somehow more atheistic, you're going to be told to STFU.  It's not a pissing contest.  If you're an atheist, you don't believe in god.  Whatever costume you dress it up as or other crap you choose to tack onto to it is you're own thing.  It has nothing to do with atheism.

Quoteis this worshipping him all the same?

  Who said anything about worship, not me...think about it.  Satanism is the opposite to Christianity or any religion. If they believe in a supernatural being we don't.  They believe in the supernatural and the spiritual: we think that the only paradise we have is what we make of it ourselves.  Satan represents what the Christians and Muslims and so on refer to as sin, and because we do so much of this sinning, we figure that satan is in us, so hence we are Satanists.  Basically hedonistic atheists.

Quoteyou're going to be told to STFU

by whom.  Who are you to call someone pretentious when you do not know them.  I might tell you to STFU the same way.  Correct it is not a pissing contest as you need an organ for this. The comment I made was in a light hearted way, as many people do not see Satanists as atheists: they see black candles, blood and gore.

QuoteWhen you claim that following some dude

You show ignorance of the situation which is understandable.  We follow no one except our intellect, use what suits us and discard it when it doesn't work.

QuoteIt has nothing to do with atheism.

This implies that you know all about atheism as though it was some sort of a cult or some set of rigid rules.
This makes you apparently dogmatic no better than some of our religious brothers.  It must be great sitting like a monk in a cell, balancing the right against the wrong, sorting out the ultimate truth, even if it is the denial of God.  Who is following doctrine or dogma: it is not me nor my kind.

If there were billions of people around the world who believed fervently in gnomes, it might change the attitude of atheists somewhat. You might get the atheists who snort in derision whenever the subject is brought up and you might get the atheists who are mindful of the sensibilities of the deluded and are wary to bring up such opposing ideas in the faces of fragile believers.

It is a great question to pose, Whitney, because personally, I just define my lack of belief as atheism. I wouldn't consider myself strong or weak in that belief. It is just a belief. My friends and work colleagues would beg to differ though. To them I'm militant I'm a member of a forum devoted to the subject. I regularly post comments on you tube that some of my friends see. I speak out whenever the subject of religion arises in a social situation and I'm not afraid to air my beliefs and debate them with people of differing opinions. This actually shocks many of my friends even though none of them pay any attention to religion. They are all atheist but they've been brought up to respect religion unquestioningly.

Maybe the view that people can be strong or weak in their atheism is a view held by people who really never give thought to the subject. As far as where I live is concerned, we aren't continually bombarded by religious messages and therefore, don't have as much reactionary views because of it. My friends consider me a strong atheist. I just consider myself atheist with an anti-religious stance.

Quotei think you might have atheism confused with... combating... religion as a whole.

Yes religion is seen as the enemy, which is somewhat similar to how Dawkins perceives it as well.
One of our philosophies so to speak is
If someone strikes you on the cheek you smash him in the other without mercy.
Below is just for your interest to bring up discussion which is why I am here.  I am not here to be pretentious or acting wacko but to present atheism from a slightly different perspective.

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth


1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they
want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go
there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and
without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a
burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it
successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of
magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose
all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject
yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for
your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone
bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


oops it seems I've gone slightly off topic.  Sorry...just noticed the previous poster was right on.   :crazy:

Quote from: "venomfangx"by whom.  Who are you to call someone pretentious when you do not know them.  I might tell you to STFU the same way.  Correct it is not a pissing contest as you need an organ for this. The comment I made was in a light hearted way, as many people do not see Satanists as atheists: they see black candles, blood and gore.

I didn't call you pretentious, I said you seemed pretentious and I gave you an example of why you were coming off that way.  One guy's humor is another lady's pretension I suppose.  :)  You're taking what I said and making it far far far more complicated than anything I actually expressed, plus you're impressing some wacky religious notions to what I said without really any logical reason to do so.  Here's what I mean -  Atheism = no believe in god.  That's it.  There are no other beliefs or lack of beliefs required for atheism.  None.  You can deny evolution and still be an atheist, you can be a Buddhist, a Satanist, a Jew, or whatever and still be an atheist.  You can reject or accept anything else and still be an atheist because all atheism pertains to is the lack of belief in a god(s).  I'm not trying to say that there's some secret info that I have that you don't, what I'm saying is that I don't understand how anyone could claim to be 'more atheistic' than anyone else when - once you get to the point of a complete disbelief of a god existing in any way - there's really nowhere to go from there.  Do you see what I mean?  I don't see how one could argue that Satanism is more atheistic than someone who simply doesn't believe in god.

I'm not an expert on any religion and I would never claim to be one, but I have read Le Vay and I've read his explanation of black masses and the like and honestly it struck me as ritualized 'worship' of a doctrine which is atheistic IN ADDITION to other philosophies specific to his brand of Satanism.

And, because I feel it's appropriate,

Hey, at least this instance of necro-posting is somewhat interesting to watch.

I appreciate the entertainment  

QuoteSatan represents what the Christians and Muslims and so on refer to as sin, and because we do so much of this sinning, we figure that satan is in us, so hence we are Satanists.

So someone you don’t believe in is inside you? And you shape your life around this being that you feel doesn’t exist?

QuoteYes religion is seen as the enemy, which is somewhat similar to how Dawkins perceives it as well.

This statement has nothing to do with atheism. You can be an atheist and think religion is an enemy, but my comment was that there isn’t a universal atheism v.s. religion. An atheist simply doesn’t believe in any gods and the rest is up to an individual tastes.

Quote7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it
successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of
magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose
all you have obtained.

Do you believe in magic? Do most satanic people believe in magic? Where does the source of this magic come from? Or is it an interpretation of lies, espionage, or all around sneakiness?

QuoteThere are no other beliefs or lack of beliefs required for atheism. None. You can deny evolution and still be an atheist, you can be a Buddhist, a Satanist, a Jew, or whatever and still be an atheist. You can reject or accept anything else and still be an atheist because all atheism pertains to is the lack of belief in a god(s).

[/quote][/quote]

I thought that in order to even be Jewish you would have to believe in god.. wouldn’t that be like a Christian that doesn’t believe in Christ?

Quote from: "venomfangx"Not sure if you are aware of what you are saying.  I said nothing about making fun of Christians, and neither is it a strange philosophy: with due respect it would seem you do not understand but appear to have pre conceived ideas of what constitutes atheistic satanism.  However, with the comment I made one would not expect anyone to do any research.  We are Satanists who are atheists.  Satan is not some magical mysterious being because as an entity he does not exist any more than God.  He is within us, what Freud called the "Id".  We are quite different to the theistic satanists who are basically devil worshipers. I thought I was a mere atheist until I got seduced by the dark side of the force so to speak.
Cheers

I looked into satanism when I was exploring philosophies....LaVey Satanism is basically just a misguided response to the oppression of Christianity even if they don't actually believe in a literal Satan.  It's rather silly when you can just as easily claim egoism as your philosophy and be done with all the childishness of ritual.

Quote from: "Jolly Sapper"Hey, at least this instance of necro-posting is somewhat interesting to watch.

I appreciate the entertainment  

Entertaining, yes.  Sad, yes.  First satanist to get banned from HAF for preaching, probably.

was he banned?
if so i dont understand how this was preaching but shedsomelightplz is still around....

i could have it all wrong and apologize if i do...

Quote from: "G-Roll"was he banned?
if so i dont understand how this was preaching but shedsomelightplz is still around....

i could have it all wrong and apologize if i do...

satanist guy is not banned; i just see him heading that way....I already said that with somelight to report him if he is preaching because I don't want to read his posts; so if he is preaching, report him and he'll be warned or whatever step he is on now.

Quote from: "Whitney"

Quote from: "G-Roll"was he banned?
if so i dont understand how this was preaching but shedsomelightplz is still around....

i could have it all wrong and apologize if i do...

satanist guy is not banned; i just see him heading that way....I already said that with somelight to report him if he is preaching because I don't want to read his posts; so if he is preaching, report him and he'll be warned or whatever step he is on now.

oh ok... fair enough.

I was not preaching because if you claim to have read widely on the subject you would understand that we do not preach, nor do we seek to recruit anyone.
Because some people do not understand what I was talking about and have pre conceived notions, I stated what some of the principles are as people here tend to do
when speaking of atheism.  Now with the threat of banning, that is cool with me: but take note I got banned from christianforums.net on a topic which was about
"are atheists more intellectual than christians".  I made a post which politely said that many christians tend to follow blindly and then got a warning for demeaning christians.  At that first warning I told the admin to shove his site up where the sun don't shine, because it would seem that if he is so upset with a small comment his faith is not founded on much of a rock.

Is this the same here, that you claim to have read widely but you do not wish to read any explanations put into an argument.  Or maybe perhaps as within the Christian channels there are a group of like minded people who have similar philosophies, who support each other and feel the existence of outsiders a threat.
I note that with a few replies, instead of talking with respect there are demeaning comments like "crackpot cult".

Well on that note..I apologize for disrupting your little closed minded club and will leave you to reinforce each others ideas of truth and reality.  Oh and for those who think I follow La Vey they are wrong and no more correct than suggesting that people here follow the doctrine of Richard Dawkins.

For those who belong to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster like I do, you might actually understand the reasoning behind satanism.  
Maybe if I preached the doctrine of the FSM here, I doubt if I would have got the same hostility as you would have realized the humour behind it, but alas the word Satan threatens.

Quote from: "venomfangx"I was not preaching because if you claim to have read widely on the subject you would understand that we do not preach, nor do we seek to recruit anyone.
Because some people do not understand what I was talking about and have pre conceived notions, I stated what some of the principles are as people here tend to do
when speaking of atheism.  Now with the threat of banning, that is cool with me: but take note I got banned from christianforums.net on a topic which was about
"are atheists more intellectual than christians".  I made a post which politely said that many christians tend to follow blindly and then got a warning for demeaning christians.  At that first warning I told the admin to shove his site up where the sun don't shine, because it would seem that if he is so upset with a small comment his faith is not founded on much of a rock.

Is this the same here, that you claim to have read widely but you do not wish to read any explanations put into an argument.  Or maybe perhaps as within the Christian channels there are a group of like minded people who have similar philosophies, who support each other and feel the existence of outsiders a threat.
I note that with a few replies, instead of talking with respect there are demeaning comments like "crackpot cult".

Well on that note..I apologize for disrupting your little closed minded club and will leave you to reinforce each others ideas of truth and reality.  Oh and for those who think I follow La Vey they are wrong and no more correct than suggesting that people here follow the doctrine of Richard Dawkins.

Lol i actually respected you up until this post. i was just curious about your belief/philosophy.

and by the way:

QuoteI am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.

QuoteOh and for those who think I follow La Vey they are wrong and no more correct than suggesting that people here follow the doctrine of Richard Dawkins

?

 

Quotei was just curious about your belief/philosophy.

I would have liked to have explained but it is clear I am not allowed to.  This forum as the name implies is clearly for secular discussion and topics outside of this are prohibited.  The Satanism actually is a parody, which is why it is called atheistic satanism.  Basically a bunch of atheists acting the goat so to speak.  It is a celebration of life and a parody of cults.  In my view and I may not be correct is that most atheists just exist and are hidden: we decide to show our faces in the most noticeable way possible.  You go to a party and say you are an atheist, many people will look at you with a bemused smile.  Go and show them your Crimson Satanist card and say you are a Satanist and you will find a numb silence.  In their mind images of blood sacrifices and absolute evil are conjured up (by the way this is the magic referred to).
Many Christians especially You Tube Creationists more or less consider all atheists to be a religious cult with Dawkins as their inspired leader.  Of course they are wrong, but they say the same thing time and time again in different ways.  At least I can safely say that Dawkins is not my leader but Satan is.  They will not get the humour but I am laughing at them inside.  

Quote from: "venomfangx"I am a La Vey Satanist and you cannot get more atheistic than that.

QuoteI thought I was a mere atheist until I got seduced by the dark side of the force so to speak.

QuoteWho is following doctrine or dogma: it is not me nor my kind.

In response to someone trying to explain that atheist is just someone who doesn't believe in god and that your first statement (shown above) is nonsense)

QuoteOne of our philosophies so to speak is
If someone strikes you on the cheek you smash him in the other without mercy.
Below is just for your interest to bring up discussion which is why I am here. I am not here to be pretentious or acting wacko but to present atheism from a slightly different perspective.

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth


1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they
want to hear them.
3. When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go
there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and
without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a
burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it
successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of
magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose
all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject
yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for
your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone
bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Almost everything you have posted was done so for the purpose of advertising your satanic views...that's preaching.

Btw, if you had been preaching FSM you would have not been being serious as it is a joke religion and no one actually follows it....so that comparison is not valid.

If you are going to make claims that you are more atheist than other atheists because you are a satanist....support your views; if you just want to tell everyone what satanists believe create your own forum.  The CoS does have a website of their own.

Ok... 2 things and I'm outta here...

1) why would you invoke any supernatural being (ie. Satan) if you are an Atheist?
Seems like that would be just another theism to me - or at least anti-theism if you're just doing it to revolt.

2) perhaps we have a theist who is trying to get atheists to admit that it's the same as Satan worship?

I don't worship Dog or Santa,
(meh)

to atheistic Satanists, Satan is not  supernatural being, in fact he does not exist except with our psychology.  No we are not anti theistic except we find religion to be distasteful as any atheist would.

I've got nothing against you venom so take this post in all sincerity.

Just let this thread die.

I'm sure there are many other threads on this forum that your insights would be better suited for.  As for this thread's current derailment, somebody got curious or insulted by something you posted (whether intentional or not isn't the point) and your responses to responses don't seem to be helping.

Just saying...

Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts.
VenomFangX

Quote from: "joeactor"Ok... 2 things and I'm outta here...

1) why would you invoke any supernatural being (ie. Satan) if you are an Atheist?
Seems like that would be just another theism to me - or at least anti-theism if you're just doing it to revolt.

2) perhaps we have a theist who is trying to get atheists to admit that it's the same as Satan worship?

I don't worship Dog or Santa,
(meh)

Haha, you called it dog.