Persistent vegetative state (PVS) is when damage to the brain has occurred and the patient is no longer conscious and thinking and aware. They are technically alive, and the brain is not officially brain-dead, but their personality is completely gone. They can't talk or walk or read. They can respond to basic stimuli though. Here is a quick clip of someone in PVS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rtKKfImndo
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but theists believe the mind or soul is separate from the physical world. This is how it's possible there is life after death and how God is a thinking being with no physical form. So where is the soul of people with PVS? Is it destroyed due to the brain damage? If so, don't ALL people have their souls destroyed at death due to brain death?
Is the soul/mind completely intact and waiting for the physical body to die? Does the soul leave the instant PVS begins?
IMO, people in persistent vegetative states are evidence of atheism. It seems to me that physical brains and chemical interactions within the brain are responsible for the mind. Invisible things like emotion, thinking, personality, ect may not have a physical form but they are only possible and due to physical matter. Damage a certain part of the brain and personality is gone. Damage another and emotions are gone. Damage another and consciousness is gone.
Quote from: yodachoda on December 25, 2011, 03:38:16 AM
IMO, people in persistent vegetative states are evidence of atheism. It seems to me that physical brains and chemical interactions within the brain are responsible for the mind. Invisible things like emotion, thinking, personality, ect may not have a physical form but they are only possible and due to physical matter. Damage a certain part of the brain and personality is gone. Damage another and emotions are gone. Damage another and consciousness is gone.
Definitely one of the best arguments mind/brain non duality has going for it. One good way of seeing how something works is to see what happens when things go wrong.
If there was a non physical "soul", then it wouldn't be affected by such major changes in the brain, right? If Terri Schiavo wasn't conscious, or at least didn't have an higher consciousness left after those areas of her brain were too damaged, then does she still have a soul? Do animals with a similar level of conscious have souls?
What the hell is this "soul" people speak of? ???
As for the underlined bit, it has more to do with the dualism versus monism debate, not really atheism versus theism. There are a few atheists who are dualists, Chalmers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers) among them. I'm probably just nit-picking, but i think it's an important distinction.
This is a very sad and scary state that I hope none of my friends or loved ones ever go through.
What the hell is a soul anyway?
It really makes no sense. I really do like this thread OP. It shows more proof about realistic thinking.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 04:48:20 AM
What the hell is a soul anyway?
I've eaten quite a few, they are nice with lemon.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edinformatics.com%2Fculinaryarts%2Ffood_encyclopedia%2FSole-fish.jpg&hash=1e1a703a5a4356d7bdc8ababa5c5a90ccf43ae9f)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 25, 2011, 05:08:45 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 04:48:20 AM
What the hell is a soul anyway?
I've eaten quite a few, they are nice with lemon.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.edinformatics.com%2Fculinaryarts%2Ffood_encyclopedia%2FSole-fish.jpg&hash=1e1a703a5a4356d7bdc8ababa5c5a90ccf43ae9f)
LOL
"Soul", not
sole! :P
But maybe you're onto something. Souls are what god tramples on on a daily basis. Just as good an answer as any ::)
Yum yum, puddin xD Looks good.
MP may have meant this
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv298%2FGawen%2Fthumbnailaspx.jpg&hash=66638928c4819787e0f8a4b696faf51ee22ea577)
An alternative Christian perspective is that there is no such thing as a soul apart from a living, healthy brain, and the Christian's hope is in resurrection of the body (like Jesus) as opposed to the eternal existence of a disembodied soul. I happen to think that PVS, and even sleep or other forms of unconsciousness, are pretty good arguments against the existence of a soul, but they have nothing to do with the concept of resurrection.
Doesn't that make it hard to accept heaven and hell? Or do you wait and go there bodily once you've been resurrected?
Quote from: OldGit on December 25, 2011, 06:00:55 PM
Doesn't that make it hard to accept heaven and hell? Or do you wait and go there bodily once you've been resurrected?
"Heaven" is on a perfect earth. We don't stop being humans. "Hell" is simply death - no eternal torment. There is judgment after resurrection, but I perceive of an adverse judgment as being something like prison here. It's not forever.
Quote from: Gawen on December 25, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
MP may have meant this
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv298%2FGawen%2Fthumbnailaspx.jpg&hash=66638928c4819787e0f8a4b696faf51ee22ea577)
Or possibly this
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb6%2FTeheran_Ave_night.jpg%2F220px-Teheran_Ave_night.jpg&hash=653a60c2df03a98f027eb8bd57c821f5019e52c9)
Wow, Korea~ I totally wanna go there. XD yes , the only Seoul I believe in is in Korea.
I don't mind soul as something a human has more or less of but isn't eternal or magical obviously.
I'll have to work on a recipe.
A dollop of empathy.
A jar of approved music appreciation.
A tablespoon of generosity.
A large refined or raw appreciation for beauty.
I'm not sure what else, but I don't think I'll recognise bad souls, just a lack of soul.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 25, 2011, 05:01:47 PM
An alternative Christian perspective is that there is no such thing as a soul apart from a living, healthy brain, and the Christian's hope is in resurrection of the body (like Jesus) as opposed to the eternal existence of a disembodied soul. I happen to think that PVS, and even sleep or other forms of unconsciousness, are pretty good arguments against the existence of a soul, but they have nothing to do with the concept of resurrection.
Ah right, resurrection of the body - you believe in that...
Dead people stay dead.
Now what?
Quote from: Heisenberg
Or possibly this
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb6%2FTeheran_Ave_night.jpg%2F220px-Teheran_Ave_night.jpg&hash=653a60c2df03a98f027eb8bd57c821f5019e52c9)
Ohhhhhh...good one!!
Matthew 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Funny how, in ancient times the soul and body were separate. Funny as well that the heart was the organ where 'thinking' came from...not the brain...until the Catholics figured out that chopping off a persons head would prevent them entrance to Heaven.
There is also a belief in full body resurrection, as Bruce says above. Of course, one must believe in magic to believe in full body resurrection (let alone partial body resurrection...or even no body resurrection). And this magic must be strong indeed to be able to piece together a body that's been blown or hacked apart into itty bitty pieces (including the brain), several hundred years ago and never found enough parts to bury or left in a field. And what about all those buried in a mass grave? That magic must be powerful in order to piece the bone jigsaw puzzle together. Ah, but that magic must be near ultimate to give a zombie the same body it had when when "alive" who was burnt at the stake, a body never found in a chemical fire or vaporized in Hiroshima.
I mean really, one could take the analogy that when we die we become dehydrated unthinking, unknowing clumps of hard invisible meat and some god pours sufficient magic water into us and viola' - a perfectly working human that doesn't have any wants or needs (doesn't want to eat or need to defecate, for example) other than to sing praises unto that god for eternity, or as Tertullian suggests, gloat at those suffering eternal full body resurrection in Hell.
Christianity is a death cult and if Tertullian was right, it's even a death cult when your resurrected.
But buuuut, what if you're a good Christian but die in a horrible murder or a accident?
Most people die in.ways that ruin their bodies. Believing in ressurection makes no sense!! Haha :D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 26, 2011, 11:00:14 PM
But buuuut, what if you're a good Christian but die in a horrible murder or a accident?
Most people die in.ways that ruin their bodies. Believing in ressurection makes no sense!! Haha :D
Precisely my point, unless one believes in magic...