First off, I'm assuming if you're an atheist, you don't believe in an afterlife. Maybe you do, but if not, I'm curious to your take on near-death experiences. There's a good site with many stories, even a science/skeptic section, near-death.com (http://near-death.com)
There's one in particular I find interesting where the person left their body and even described doctors comments, and surgical instruments, after she was pronounced brain dead:
http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html (http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html)
If your only explanation for these is just 'random brain activity' or something before a person dies, then I ask, why do these people have such lucid experiences, unlike a hazy dream, able to recall much of them? Why would evolution create such a complex experience at death, why not just simply knocking the person out with some endogenous pain killers? Seems like a pretty unnecessary way for the brain to just 'shut down'.....
Quote from: Light on December 23, 2011, 11:33:19 PM
If your only explanation for these is just 'random brain activity'
That would be a rather lazy and un-professional explanation, but then this is not a neurology forum.
To the best of my knowledge, there is a thread here somehwere about NDEs... Was a nice explanation post or two in it as well, or so I seem to recall.
Quote
why do these people have such lucid experiences
Why do the psycho nut's monsters seem so real? I don't know. If I want an explanation though, I'll try asking a psychiatrist. There is no need to invoke a spirit or a soul or some creepy form of continuation of life beyond life though.
Quote
Why would evolution create
Why would nuclear physics create an a-bomb? It wouldn't, couldn't and didn't. Evolution is a process of transformation of something - a specie of fish, for instance - into something else, like amphibians, over time. (Very simplified, but the relevant word here is "process". Something changes into something else over time through the process of evolution. The process itself does not create.)
This may seem like nitpickery, and it is, but some nits just need to be picked. A better way of putting it would be "Why have we evolved *insert something or other* in stead of *Something else*"
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such a complex experience at death, why not just simply knocking the person out with some endogenous pain killers? Seems like a pretty unnecessary way for the brain to just 'shut down'.....
Depends on the manner of death. NDAs are not as common as some NDA nuts would have you think. In some cases of traumatic death, for instance, you go into a state of shock and then you die. In other cases, you fall asleep and never wake up.
In any case, death is a process with a beginning, an end and everything inbetween. A lot can happen within the process of dying, including some really cool hallucinations, or so I hear.
I have no idea why people have near death experiences, however it totally opposed to my own experience (a rope swing accident) and also that of my dad when he was clinically dead due to a heart attack. In most cases people try to escape death, it may be possible that when faced with death the brain becomes highly active in an attempt to escape death that it engages the frontal lobes in some cases causing certain types of visions, anybody that has experienced hallucinogenics or is a sufferer of frontal lobe epilepsy will tell you how lucid visions can be as for why its possible for more than a hazy dream.
It also depends what definition of dead is used as there are different types, clinically dead; this is when blood circulation and breathing has stopped but the brain is still active and still recoverable, brain dead; this is when there is no brain activity and irreversible, and legal death; this always coincides with brain death but also covers areas where the patient is considered to be dead by the law of that Country or State depending where you live.
I don't trust nde accounts posted in pro after life sites
Quote from: Whitney on December 24, 2011, 01:18:07 AM
I don't trust nde accounts posted in pro after life sites
I don't trust any of them.
There are usually far too many variables there even for my highly unprofessional mind. For instance, did the person who allegedly experienced NDE wake up in the very room where it occured, or regain consciousness at any time? Did the doctor check for pupil dialation and was thus potentially seen - even if briefly and unclearly - by the patient? Did people in the room talk? Was there any at all brain activity going on? Was it even being measured? Is there a chance of the patient filling in them memory blanks, so to speak, with sensory experiences obtained after the alleged NDE?
Bleh! That ought to be enough for now.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 01:27:00 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 24, 2011, 01:18:07 AM
I don't trust nde accounts posted in pro after life sites
I don't trust any of them.
me neither...I'm not even aware of any properly documented cases that were not in some way explained naturally
Quote from: Whitney on December 24, 2011, 01:32:16 AM
I'm not even aware of any properly documented cases that were not in some way explained naturally
Yes, that's about where my long string of potentially buzzkill-variables comes in :P
Quote from: Whitney on December 24, 2011, 01:18:07 AM
I don't trust nde accounts posted in pro after life sites
Elizabeth Loftus would agree... 8)
I don't think it's necessarily related, other than things aren't always what they seem but the explanation of how time seems to slow when a person is in an extreme situation is interesting.
QuoteInstead, such time warping seems to be a trick played by one's memory (http://www.livescience.com/2117-time-slow-emergencies.html). When a person is scared, a brain area called the amygdala becomes more active, laying down an extra set of memories that go along with those normally taken care of by other parts of the brain.
"In this way, frightening events are associated with richer and denser memories," Eagleman explained. "And the more memory you have of an event, the longer you believe it took."
Eagleman added this illusion "is related to the phenomenon that time seems to speed up as you grow older. When you're a child, you lay down rich memories for all your experiences; when you're older, you've seen it all before and lay down fewer memories. Therefore, when a child looks back at the end of a summer, it seems to have lasted forever; adults think it zoomed by."
nm, i misread.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 03:47:06 AM
Not trusting because it's a pro-life site? huh? What would that have to do with anything? I didn't even see anything like that mentioned there.
I wouldn't trust a pro-life site to be unbiased either....
You might want to re-read what I wrote ;)
heh, yeah, misread, but anyway, you know there's a lot of external links on that site if you don't trust it, links to site of some of the people who experienced the NDE, also to people who have studied them, just saying, could be some interesting reading for some......
Reading someone's acount of his or her NDE is no more interesting to me than reading a deliriant user's account of his or her hallucinations. Some people do find it fascinating. I just find it... Boring.
A hallucination? Hmm, sounds like most people describe them as an awareness more clear than normal awareness, never heard much about hallucinations.
By the way, what is with the frowning avatar anyway, I thought this was supposed to be the 'happy atheist forum'.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 04:12:54 AM
A hallucination? Hmm, sounds like most people describe them as an awareness more clear than normal awareness,
This is an appropriate place for the "I rest my case" -line, but I have not yet grown bored of this.
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never heard much about hallucinations.
Pop a few pills of the right sort, and you might just experience those first hand. Hallucinations, they can seem very real to the person experiencing them while being utter bullshit to everyone else.
Quote
By the way, what is with the frowning avatar anyway, I thought this was supposed to be the 'happy atheist forum'.
No-where in the rules does it say that this forum may only be joined by happy atheists. For that reason, even the most trollish of jesus camp survivors get a chance here.
That said, my avatar does not necessarilly reflect my general disposition towards pretty much anyone except mindless god worshippers and/or the willingly dumb.
That said, the opposites of happy are sad, depressed and the like. Grumpiness and happiness are not necessarilly incompatible.
Asmo is a god, he takes all our grumpyness so the rest of us can be happy.
All praise Asmo!
http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 04:12:54 AMBy the way, what is with the frowning avatar anyway, I thought this was supposed to be the 'happy atheist forum'.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F4195%2Flolbymissbangles.gif&hash=a459a670b2fef67538964246ce892a4b5f7d96e2) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af)
Quote from: Recusant on December 24, 2011, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 04:12:54 AMBy the way, what is with the frowning avatar anyway, I thought this was supposed to be the 'happy atheist forum'.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F4195%2Flolbymissbangles.gif&hash=a459a670b2fef67538964246ce892a4b5f7d96e2) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af)
Not everyone has heard about The Great and Terrible Asmo, apparently. Something needs to be done ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 03:16:57 PM
Quote from: Recusant on December 24, 2011, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 04:12:54 AMBy the way, what is with the frowning avatar anyway, I thought this was supposed to be the 'happy atheist forum'.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F4195%2Flolbymissbangles.gif&hash=a459a670b2fef67538964246ce892a4b5f7d96e2) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frationalia.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fgrin.gif&hash=8e1dbf9c0bca696aee6a6bd7852aaf9be7f1d0af)
Not everyone has heard about The Great and Terrible Asmo, apparently. Something needs to be done ;D
ASAP >:(
Anyways, back to the OP, I think there are some mor eintriguing questions than answers so far (I don't have a good answer). For instance, why do people say they see Jesus as depicted by painters as the blond guy with blue eyes? The guy lived in the Middle East...
In all else, I have no idea.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 24, 2011, 03:28:29 PM
...Anyways, back to the OP, I think there are some mor eintriguing questions than answers so far (I don't have a good answer). For instance, why do people say they see Jesus as depicted by painters as the blond guy with blue eyes? The guy lived in the Middle East...
In all else, I have no idea.
LOL, yeah! If we know one thing about Jesus (assuming he existed as an individual) is that he most certainly was not a blue eyed white guy.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 24, 2011, 03:28:29 PM
Anyways, back to the OP, I think there are some mor eintriguing questions than answers so far (I don't have a good answer). For instance, why do people say they see Jesus as depicted by painters as the blond guy with blue eyes? The guy lived in the Middle East...
In all else, I have no idea.
You mean how they see jesus in the NDE? If so, maybe these spirits or whatever they are, present themselves in a way that the person can understand. I read one story,Mellen-Thomas Benedict, where the guy said there wasn't just one heaven, there were multiple, based on how people related to the idea of heaven while on earth.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 07:40:45 PM
You mean how they see jesus in the NDE? If so, maybe these hallucinations or whatever they are, present themselves as something the person is likely to imagine in a given situation. I read one story,Mellen-Thomas Benedict, where the guy said there wasn't just one heaven, there were multiple, based on how people related to the idea of heaven while on earth.
Fixed it up a bit. Also, the
bold text is pretty much THE definition of unreliable testimony.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 04:09:03 AM
Reading someone's acount of his or her NDE is no more interesting to me than reading a deliriant user's account of his or her hallucinations. Some people do find it fascinating. I just find it... Boring.
Same.
I honestly don't see a point anyway in researching such nonsense. People who are way too obsessed with death annoy me.
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
I don't
believe I'm alive. I
know I'm alive AND I can prove it conclusively with the assistance of a medical team and some independent educated reviewers for verification.
For clarification, just how broad is your definition of believing?
There's a definition for death, made up by some people, so what? That's a commonly accepted definition, not an absolute truth.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
The problem with personal experiences of the so-called supernatural, is that there are many, many ways to interpret the experience. The mind is a crazy thing. VERY prone to suggestion. I don't argue that those people had some sort of experience. But I highly doubt the interpretation they're layering over the experience.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:23:31 PM
There's a definition for death, made up by some people, so what? That's a commonly accepted definition, not an absolute truth.
I think you're making a mistake a lot of religious people make of confusing the physical and the metaphysical -- perhaps in the belief that the metaphysical can't stand on its own. And maybe it can't, but trying to shoehorn the metaphysical into the physical isn't going to work either, the two are apples and oranges.
Quote from: LightEh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
Cogito ergo vivo.
^ Got it in one, Asmo. ;D
Quote from: OldGit on December 24, 2011, 10:30:51 PM
^ Got it in one, Asmo. ;D
That's Sir Dr. Asmodeus the Great, Ph.d.
Expert in Latin. Yes. ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 10:28:58 PM
Quote from: OldGit on December 24, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
Cogito ergo vivo.
I think, therefor I'm a Volvo? :P
XD tee hee
I agree none the less. What proof do I have? I can feel, touch, sing, laugh. More than your fairy king can do.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 24, 2011, 11:27:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 10:28:58 PM
Quote from: OldGit on December 24, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
Cogito ergo vivo.
I think, therefor I'm a Volvo? :P
XD tee hee
I agree none the less. What proof do I have? I can feel, touch, sing, laugh. More than your fairy king can do.
Oh, I see. So feeling is proof of something to you. Yet, if a person feels a divine presence, well, that just couldn't be proof at all....
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:38:04 PM
Oh, I see. So feeling is proof of something to you. Yet, if a person feels a divine presence, well, that just couldn't be proof at all....
"To you" is the operative word here. If you want to prove something to others, you have to be prepared to cough up more.
I doubt Sweetdeath is all that interested in proving her existence to you - why would she care to? But if she wanted to, she could. Would require some professional assistance, but if that's what it takes...
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 11:45:08 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:38:04 PM
Oh, I see. So feeling is proof of something to you. Yet, if a person feels a divine presence, well, that just couldn't be proof at all....
"To you" is the operative word here. If you want to prove something to others, you have to be prepared to cough up more.
I doubt Sweetdeath is all that interested in proving her existence to you - why would she care to? But if she wanted to, she could. Would require some professional assistance, but if that's what it takes...
I don't expect to prove anything to anybody or vice versa, simply stating ideas for discussion.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:53:14 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 11:45:08 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:38:04 PM
Oh, I see. So feeling is proof of something to you. Yet, if a person feels a divine presence, well, that just couldn't be proof at all....
"To you" is the operative word here. If you want to prove something to others, you have to be prepared to cough up more.
I doubt Sweetdeath is all that interested in proving her existence to you - why would she care to? But if she wanted to, she could. Would require some professional assistance, but if that's what it takes...
I don't expect to prove anything to anybody or vice versa, simply stating ideas for discussion.
You're getting more trollish with every post.
Well, I like philosophy, I think it's primarily about examining different beliefs about reality. If people are uncomfortable with examining such ideas, then I guess I'll leave.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:53:14 PM
I don't expect to prove anything to anybody or vice versa, simply stating ideas for discussion.
...And yet you cling to ideas and explanations dismissed as unnecessary... Sounds like trying to prove something, if you ask me.
Plus, what Tank said.
If I were clinging to the ideas, I don't see why I'd even come here.
I present certain ideas, people give feedback, and hopefully I gain some insight along the way. I have gained some from a few people who made thoughtful posts. But, I'd say over-all that my impression so far of this forum is that most people seem to have already made up their minds and don't really have much desire to discuss anything. That's fine.
Oh, if you propose such a thing as afterlife, many of us will not jump on that idea like a bunch crazed jackrabbits.
For one, is there a need for life after death in order to adequately explain some observed and reliably documented phenomena, which can, now and in foreseeable future, not be adequately explained by what we do know or have reason to suspect to exist? Not really.
Then, what evidence IS there of some form of afterlife beyond other life forms using your rotting remains as food, with the ultimate goal of produccing more life? None, really.
So, why is it that you think we should even consider the idea of afterlife?
Exchange "afterlife" for "soul" and you got the same problem.
I don't think you should consider it if you don't want, just assumed some people might engage in the discussion.
The thing is, Tank said I'm acting 'trollish' . Suggesting, that the reason I'm posting here is to purposely just annoy people. Well, I can't help it if some people get annoyed sometimes during a debate, that's just the nature of things, but that's not my main intention.
So, if it's annoying, then don't engage in debate with me. Fine. Thought I'd offer a few of my insights, and hopefully get some in exchange.
That doesn't seem to be working out so well though so I'll find a different path.
Quote from: Light on December 25, 2011, 12:33:24 AM
I don't think you should consider it if you don't want, just assumed some people might engage in the discussion.
Some did. The Asmo among them, no less.
Quote
The thing is, Tank said I'm acting 'trollish' . Suggesting, that the reason I'm posting here is to purposely just annoy people.
If he was suggesting that, he'd call you a troll and warn and/or ban you. What he did say, rephrased, is that your behaviour resembles that of a troll. It does, deliberately or otherwise.
Quote
Well, I can't help it if some people get annoyed sometimes during a debate, that's just the nature of things, but that's not my main intention.
Have you engaged in a single debate here? Debating is pretty much discussing opposing points.
Discussing them, not voicing your ideas and moving on. The word for that is
brainstorming.
Quote
So, if it's annoying, then don't engage in debate with me. Fine. Thought I'd offer a few of my insights, and hopefully get some in exchange.
If Tank found you too annoying for the regular garden variety HAf member, he'd ban you.
Quote
That doesn't seem to be working out so well though so I'll find a different path.
For all I care, if your intention is to potentially learn something, you can stay as long as you like. I will even try to explain things to you on occasion in the easiest to understand manner I know. I'm sure others will too. No need to play the unfairly treated little victim card - that's just pathetic (Although you only play it by vague implication, so that doesn't fully apply to you yet, and perhaps it never will, depending on your intentions and personality)
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
By our standards, we are all alive. Only by some weird other standards could we not be alive. Whatever those other standards may be, they don't matter to us, do they? ::)
Be careful with words, they're treacherous.
Quote from: Light on December 25, 2011, 12:33:24 AM
I don't think you should consider it if you don't want, just assumed some people might engage in the discussion.
The thing is, Tank said I'm acting 'trollish' . Suggesting, that the reason I'm posting here is to purposely just annoy people. Well, I can't help it if some people get annoyed sometimes during a debate, that's just the nature of things, but that's not my main intention.
So, if it's annoying, then don't engage in debate with me. Fine. Thought I'd offer a few of my insights, and hopefully get some in exchange.
That doesn't seem to be working out so well though so I'll find a different path.
Tank is not the only one who finds your posting style trollish....other members have raised concern
Perhaps if you were not so out there on every topic it wouldn't send up red flags
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:38:04 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 24, 2011, 11:27:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 24, 2011, 10:28:58 PM
Quote from: OldGit on December 24, 2011, 10:20:14 PM
Cogito ergo vivo.
I think, therefor I'm a Volvo? :P
XD tee hee
I agree none the less. What proof do I have? I can feel, touch, sing, laugh. More than your fairy king can do.
Oh, I see. So feeling is proof of something to you. Yet, if a person feels a divine presence, well, that just couldn't be proof at all....
I've never in my entire life felt a divine presence. I feel that is some dellusion religious people make up to feel important or self righteous.
Once again, I am here, able to help others, donate , cook food, hold a door open for a person with a cart. Real life things a "god" doesn't do. I don't know what more proof I need.
Quote from: Light on December 25, 2011, 12:33:24 AM
I don't think you should consider it if you don't want, just assumed some people might engage in the discussion.
The thing is, Tank said I'm acting 'trollish' . Suggesting, that the reason I'm posting here is to purposely just annoy people. Well, I can't help it if some people get annoyed sometimes during a debate, that's just the nature of things, but that's not my main intention.
So, if it's annoying, then don't engage in debate with me. Fine. Thought I'd offer a few of my insights, and hopefully get some in exchange.
That doesn't seem to be working out so well though so I'll find a different path.
The highlighted element admits that it's not your 'main' intention, which impliesitis
part of you intention. And if you want to stay do so, if not then don't. Exercise your free will or not as you choose. But please don't get into the passive/aggressive 'nobody loves me so shall I go?' shit.
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
Belief automatically ushers in doubt.
Quote from: Light on December 25, 2011, 12:17:10 AM
If I were clinging to the ideas, I don't see why I'd even come here.
I present certain ideas, people give feedback, and hopefully I gain some insight along the way. I have gained some from a few people who made thoughtful posts. But, I'd say over-all that my impression so far of this forum is that most people seem to have already made up their minds and don't really have much desire to discuss anything. That's fine.
Read up on Occams' Razor.
Quote from: Gawen on December 25, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
Belief automatically ushers in doubt.
...And is different from knowledge.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 25, 2011, 01:13:03 PM
Quote from: Gawen on December 25, 2011, 01:05:55 PM
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
Eh, why do any of you even believe you're alive right now? Because someone told you that you are? There are things called personal experiences that can be the basis for believing something.
Belief automatically ushers in doubt.
...And is different from knowledge.
THIS^
Personal experiences and tall tales aren't facts. If someone old me my upstairs neighbor kept a monkey from when I was young (naive)-- I probably would still believd it as a teenager unless I had proof.
Belief and faith (to me) mean when a person is dealing with so many horrible things in reality, so they must escape. They think "it's okay. If I am good in this life, I will be accepted in the kingdom of heaven, where no one suffers."
It's a safety mechanism some people use to feel better. Honestly, in my opinon, that is just sad existence and borderline schizophenic
Quote from: Light on December 24, 2011, 11:59:01 PM
Well, I like philosophy, I think it's primarily about examining different beliefs about reality. If people are uncomfortable with examining such ideas, then I guess I'll leave.
See ya.
If there was a controlled experiment that showed that people could tell what was inside a room besides them when they never were in that room (and no one told them what was in it), then I would instantly become a dedicated theist. I could read religious texts and listen to a preacher preach for 18 hours a day for the next few months and it wouldn't convince me at all that there is a God. If a single accurate experiment showed that people with NDE could tell what was inside a room that they've never been in, then that would definetly convince me that the theists are right.
Since NDE isn't that common, and you can't exactly induce a NDE for the sole purpose of an experiment, this would be a hard experiment to do. These isolated claims of people in a hospital claiming NDE and claiming to see objects while they were unconcious could easily be by people who say the objects before or after the NDE, or who were in fact slightly conscious during the NDE.
Quote from: yodachoda on December 26, 2011, 07:53:56 PMIf a single accurate experiment showed that people with NDE could tell what was inside a room that they've never been in, then that would definetly convince me that the theists are right.
Theists would be right, which ones?
I assume all the supernatural weirdness is just human weirdness. If some one did that room trick and it wasn't a trick I'd admit there's something we don't understand going on, I still wouldn't concede it to god. Lightning used to be god throwing spears about before we knew better. I'm not conceding the inexplicable to god, he'll have to do much better than that.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 27, 2011, 01:09:08 AM
Quote from: yodachoda on December 26, 2011, 07:53:56 PMIf a single accurate experiment showed that people with NDE could tell what was inside a room that they've never been in, then that would definetly convince me that the theists are right.
Theists would be right, which ones?
I assume all the supernatural weirdness is just human weirdness. If some one did that room trick and it wasn't a trick I'd admit there's something we don't understand going on, I still wouldn't concede it to god. Lightning used to be god throwing spears about before we knew better. I'm not conceding the inexplicable to god, he'll have to much better than that.
You mean thunder aren't the gods bowling? XP
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 27, 2011, 03:20:10 AM
You mean thunder aren't the gods bowling? XP
Of course not! Thunder is god snoring, heathen.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 27, 2011, 04:28:05 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 27, 2011, 03:20:10 AM
You mean thunder aren't the gods bowling? XP
Of course not! Thunder is god snoring, heathen.
It's flatulence! Oh ye of little faith!
Quote from: Tank on December 27, 2011, 05:36:53 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 27, 2011, 04:28:05 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 27, 2011, 03:20:10 AM
You mean thunder aren't the gods bowling? XP
Of course not! Thunder is god snoring, heathen.
It's flatulence! Oh ye of little faith!
**clutches pearls and reaches for smelling salts**
Just a few quick points I wanted to bring up on the matter. NDEs and OBEs do not necessarily occur together. OBEs (out of body experiences) are not documented in all NDEs. Also some very interesting research has elucidated much surrounding the OBEs. For instance, much has been published by Blanke on the matter in which he first detailed an experience that he was able to elicit by stimulating the right angular gyrus of a patient (Blanke, 2002). The angular gyrus is part of the temporo-parietal junction which has the important job of providing us with our sense of space and self - a kind of filter of what tells us is us and what tells us is other stuff.
This eliciting of an OBE by stimulation of these areas in the TPJ was independently reproduced and imaged (De Riddler, 2007). It was also elicited on participants using TMS (Tsakiris, Constantini & Haggard, 2008)
References:
Blanke, O. (2002). Stimulating illusory own-body perceptions. Nature 419, 269-270.
De Ridder, D., Van Laere, K., Dupont, P., Menovsky, T. & Van de Heyning, P. (2007). Visualizing out-of-body experience in the brain. NEJM 357, 1829-1833.
Tsakiris, M., Constantini, M. & Haggard, P. (2008). The right temporo-parietal junction in maintaining a coherent sense of one's body. Neuropsychologia 46, 3014-3018.