I just watched the below video on You Tube titled, "Why does God Allow Satan to live", the pastor tries to answer this question and gives an absolutly laughable response. Check it out at the link below.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmOzTY06mBo
Satan is the tempter, so why doesn't god just take satan out?
"Some who would say, he really can't!"
My attempt at quoting - [God has ordained that Satan has a long leash (like a dog?) and God holds that leash. God wants us to struggle with sin(?) To come to him by having to resist the temptations he allows to happen(?) If we resist this idea and argue, we deny god and we will perish.]
So the moral of the lesson is "Just believe in God anyway or you will perish"
Laughable is right!
Quote from: Sgtmackenzie on December 21, 2011, 03:40:11 AM
Satan is the tempter, so why doesn't god just take satan out?
"Some who would say, he really can't!"
My attempt at quoting - [God has ordained that Satan has a long leash (like a dog?) and God holds that leash. God wants us to struggle with sin(?) To come to him by having to resist the temptations he allows to happen(?) If we resist this idea and argue, we deny god and we will perish.]
james 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Maybe god is a trilogy in four parts.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 21, 2011, 05:15:05 AM
Maybe god is a trilogy in four parts.
Or maybe it wants The Asmo to have someone to hang out with down under... Just to keep him from pillaging heaven and causing general mayhem ;D
This pastor should have prepared a better answer to the question, I will give you that. In fact he threw out a lot of words without really answering anything.
The fact is Satan is apparently a servant of God used to purify the human race. There is no indication in the Bible that Satan is anywhere but in heaven. Some will quote Isaiah 14, but that's nonsense. Anyone reading that passage will immediately deduce that Isaiah is talking about an earthly king (the king of Babylon) who tried to make himself equal to God and was brought down as a result.
In the book of Job, Satan is in heaven. In the Gospels, Satan acts as an instrument of God's plan to tempt Jesus to take on an earthly kingship.
Don't think for one minute that Satan sins; he doesn't. He isn't that stupid. Disregard Paradise Lost, disregard the misinterpretation of Isaiah 14, and you will see that Satan is an angel just like Gabriel or Michael, but his mission is not to fight or announce things but rather to purify the human race.
I think most of the time you atheists simply punch at air.
Quote from: Egor on December 21, 2011, 06:22:30 AM
This pastor should have prepared a better answer to the question, I will give you that. In fact he threw out a lot of words without really answering anything.
The fact is Satan is apparently a servant of God used to purify the human race. There is no indication in the Bible that Satan is anywhere but in heaven. Some will quote Isaiah 14, but that's nonsense. Anyone reading that passage will immediately deduce that Isaiah is talking about an earthly king (the king of Babylon) who tried to make himself equal to God and was brought down as a result.
In the book of Job, Satan is in heaven. In the Gospels, Satan acts as an instrument of God's plan to tempt Jesus to take on an earthly kingship.
Don't think for one minute that Satan sins; he doesn't. He isn't that stupid. Disregard Paradise Lost, disregard the misinterpretation of Isaiah 14, and you will see that Satan is an angel just like Gabriel or Michael, but his mission is not to fight or announce things but rather to purify the human race.
I think most of the time you atheists simply punch at air.
i used to believe this. this is incorrect sir. read revelation. also the king of babylon could not have been in the garden of eden. the problem is satan is very different throughout the bible. the NT is where our modern view of satan comes from.
from revelations 20 starting at verse seven.
" 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
also in matthew 25 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the
devil and his angels.
Egor, the interpretation you give is alien to everything we hear from traditional Christianity. Satan has been portrayed as the Evil One (sorry, Asmo) for centuries. So please don't accuse us of punching at air: Satan's traditional rep is pretty solid.
Quote from: OldGit on December 21, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Satan has been portrayed as the Evil One (sorry, Asmo) for centuries.
Nono, is poyfect. Can be The Asmo's own personal MiniMe. :D
Quote from: Egor on December 21, 2011, 06:22:30 AM
In fact he threw out a lot of words without really answering anything.
Funny you should call the kettle black like that. You do the same thing.
Quote from: OldGit on December 21, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Egor, the interpretation you give is alien to everything we hear from traditional Christianity. Satan has been portrayed as the Evil One (sorry, Asmo) for centuries. So please don't accuse us of punching at air: Satan's traditional rep is pretty solid.
Don't you know that any time we can't read Egor's mind and inherently know his personal, specific, Christian doctrine it's because of the flaws of Atheism?
Ok, so lemme get this right.
Based on the video, Satan is allowed to live to make God look better?
(from the vid: "God ordains all of these things so that his glory—his mercy, justice, grace, wisdom—would shine more brightly.")
... and God tortured his own son by exposing him to Satan, so that we could learn from his son's suffering how great of a guy God is?
(from the vid: "the glory of God and Christ shines more brightly when we are seen to be supremely satisfied in Christ in spite of Satan's torments, rather than if we had his torments removed and liked Jesus because of it.")
Wow.
God better hope that none of his neighbors report him to child protective services ;-)
Frankly, I've heard much better arguments for why God allows Satan to live...
Quote from: joeactor on December 22, 2011, 02:43:45 PM
Frankly, I've heard much better arguments for why God allows Satan to live...
For the lulz? ;D
Well...consider Job. God has Satan do everything he wanted to Job except kill him, as a test. What was Job's reaction? "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him" (Job 13:15). Job, I think, did not understand why God allowed the things He did, but continued to trust in Him.
But you see, there are no "good" people. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that all of us are tainted by and infected with sin : Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1 : 8
Romans 3:10-18: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Every human being on this planet deserves to be thrown into hell at this very moment and the reason why we're not all wailing and gnashing our teeth is by the grace and mercy of God. Even the most terrible misery we could experience on this planet is merciful compared to what we deserve, eternal hell in the lake of fire...so "they" say.
Anyway, Satan lives because:
Romans 11:36: "Everything comes from God alone. Everything lives by His power, and everything is for His glory."
or:
"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."...depending on your flavour of Bible.
And:
2 Corinthians 5:18: All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation...
And:
1 Corinthians 11:12: For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
More:
John 1:3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made" I don't know where Velvetta Cheese and foie gras comes into play here.
1 Timothy 4:4: For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving... So, except Satan into your life and reject him not, but with thanksgiving. Velvetta cheese and foie gras, those being not so good, are optional. Know that "The LORD works out everything for his own ends...(Proverbs 16:4).
Quote from: egorThe fact is Satan is apparently a servant of God used to purify the human race. There is no indication in the Bible that Satan is anywhere but in heaven. Some will quote Isaiah 14, but that's nonsense. Anyone reading that passage will immediately deduce that Isaiah is talking about an earthly king (the king of Babylon) who tried to make himself equal to God and was brought down as a result.
In the book of Job, Satan is in heaven. In the Gospels, Satan acts as an instrument of God's plan to tempt Jesus to take on an earthly kingship.
Don't think for one minute that Satan sins; he doesn't. He isn't that stupid. Disregard Paradise Lost, disregard the misinterpretation of Isaiah 14, and you will see that Satan is an angel just like Gabriel or Michael, but his mission is not to fight or announce things but rather to purify the human race.
Interesting interpretation! I'd say you're in a minority there, but an interesting one. I wouldn't go along with it personally, since his being an angel wouldn't answer the question. Why is there a need for him? Why would God's plan for mankind
antagonise itself by having temptation knocking around to throw it off course?
re. the video: I don't think it's that dumb, really, but I don't agree with it and it is badly expressed. Satan represents 'evil', crudely speaking, but he's also a powerful symbol of moral choice and independent will. He was the first being of God's creation to demonstrate a capacity for those things through disobedience. So he represents in us a sort of
atman - a sense of
self all of its own, separate from that of God. And this is firmly a part of the mythos surrounding him, provided you don't do what Egor does and disregard great swathes of it.
Let's not disregard Milton's
Paradise Lost, for instance, which has influenced our ideas about Satan probably just as much as the Bible has. Here you've got Adam and Eve, hopping around in the garden of Eden, batting their eyelids and talking about how wonderful everything is. They're no better than those arrogant, snooty angels. They're not "good" because they don't even know what "goodness" is; they're 'clockwork oranges', incapable of moral choice, or of being anything other than what they are: selfless, innocent and beautiful - not to mention bland, mindless and meaningless.
Satan comes along in serpent form and changes all that by saying, "hey, didn't
you know?
You don't have to just do as you're told.
You can do
your own thing.
You can eat whatever fruit
you please."
Immediately after eating the fruit and talking to God, Adam and Eve have a great little spat. They start blaming each other for what's happened, each trying to absolve themselves, both being very petty. But petty as they're being, the scene illustrates how they've ceased to be two-dimensional caricatures of innocence; they're now aware of themselves, and of each other, as separate beings with separate motives and interests. So Satan gives us ourselves, essentially.
Myself as opposed to
you. From which we get difference, conflict, cruelty, humour, art, beauty, fruitful communication and virtually everything else. He needs to exist in order to make us complete beings, meaningfully self-aware and self-directed. Think of it as god's way of pushing us out of the nest. That'd be how I'd rationalise it.
The preacher man's idea of God is quite ugly in a way. That he torments us only to make his "mercy" a greater relief... something doesn't add up there.
This is the way I see "god."
He is the awkward kid in scool, sitting in the corner, eating lunch by himself. He gains the trust of a bully/badass for whatever reason and sets up a fake fight scenario which he wins. Suddenly everyone thinks god is cool, but he's not.
I dunno...
Honestly though, worshipping the fairy king for no reason and citing the bible is still very laughable.
"I duno why he has done this, but still trust in him" is a huge reason why kids are being molested by preists and not daying anything, becuz we are suppose to blindly trust in them, just like god.
I find it extremely sad that in the middle east, christian churchs are being bombed by muslim extremists becuz they are threatened or disagree. I fund it laughable becuz they are all equally idiotic, and need to see how much death and violence religion causes--and for WHAT?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 25, 2011, 06:06:50 AM
This is the way I see "god."
He is the awkward kid in scool, sitting in the corner, eating lunch by himself. He gains the trust of a bully/badass for whatever reason and sets up a fake fight scenario which he wins. Suddenly everyone thinks god is cool, but he's not.
I like this...*grinnin*
But this is how I see god...
Did you see him too?
I thought not. Neither did I.
Quote from: Egor on December 21, 2011, 06:22:30 AM
Don't think for one minute that Satan sins; he doesn't. He isn't that stupid. Disregard Paradise Lost, disregard the misinterpretation of Isaiah 14, and you will see that Satan is an angel just like Gabriel or Michael, but his mission is not to fight or announce things but rather to purify the human race.
John 8:44 NIV - "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Watching this guy desperately grope for any reason, regardless of how ridiculous, to justify god's inaction to the satan problem is like seeing a PhD in Fairytales try to examine what motivates the thinking of Humpty Dumpty.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 27, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
Watching this guy desperately grope for any reason, regardless of how ridiculous, to justify god's inaction to the satan problem is like seeing a PhD in Fairytales try to examine what motivates the thinking of Humpty Dumpty.
LMAO, love this analogy. ;D
There is also the logical problem of:
If Satan is evil and God is good (Yeah, right!) , why is Satan the one who punishes the ones on his "team"?
In short, why would Satan punish those who do what he wants?
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 27, 2011, 05:50:44 PM
There is also the logical problem of:
If Satan is evil and God is good (Yeah, right!) , why is Satan the one who punishes the ones on his "team"?
In short, why would Satan punish those who do what he wants?
I agree with this, I would think that Satan would let the fires of hell go smack out and refuse to do his job.
I think the reason God does not just destroy Satan is that every good story needs a Nemesis. For the same reason every good novel, comic book or TV show has a conflict that needs resolved in the end. And the longer you can draw the end out, the longer you get donations to keep the fight up. If Satan wasn't there it would be no reason to go to church, pay your dues or tithes or pass the plate, repent, tell the priest your deepest darkest moments (which I am sure they get a kick out of) and the whole system of religion would fall apart. There you have it, it's the real reason.
Quote from: MadBomr101Watching this guy desperately grope for any reason, regardless of how ridiculous, to justify god's inaction to the satan problem is like seeing a PhD in Fairytales try to examine what motivates the thinking of Humpty Dumpty.
i looked but could not find the insightful academic paper of which you speak. :( did he fall? was he pushed? perhaps we shall never know for sure.
i would say that the poem expresses an attitude of great pessimism. as we see at the end, all the kings horses and all the kings men "
couldn't put humpty together again", written in the past tense, but is this perhaps the foresight of a deeply depressed individual, contemplating a kind of inevitable, spiritual self-destruction? as you know, humpty dumpty was originally a riddle, the answer being "he's an egg", hence there being no mention of that in the rhyme itself. And it's interesting to note here that the egg is a common symbol for the soul. it falls, it breaks, it cannot be repaired. not by 'men' at least.
next week, i'll be giving a seminar on how Bram Stoker's
Dracula is actually a critique of the pineapple farming industry. I'll be describing how it deals, allegorically, with problems such as the acidic juices of the pineapple tending to wear away the fingerprints of their handlers over time, thus
stripping them of their earthly identities. Look forward to it.
Quote from: Guardian85If Satan is evil and God is good (Yeah, right!) , why is Satan the one who punishes the ones on his "team"?
Satan didn't create hell. He is put there, along with us, by God. Otherwise, he'd probably do it because we're god's pet project - he just hates us.
Quote from: Melmoth on December 27, 2011, 07:42:49 PM
Satan didn't create hell. He is put there, along with us, by God. Otherwise, he'd probably do it because we're god's pet project - he just hates us.
You know, if I was smart and evil, and perhaps a touch megalomaniacal, I'd probably use the resources I had even if I hated them. Humans, they can make a nice resource. I doubt Satan would overlook it. Although, torturing dumbasses and believers who just weren't perfect enough, that would still need to be done. :D
Did you say Satan or Santa? ::)
Satan means "the accuser", so maybe the following song was written for him:
Santa Claus Is Coming To Town
You better watch out
You better not cry
Better not pout
I'm telling you why
SATAN is coming to town
He's making a list,
And checking it twice;
Gonna find out Who's naughty and nice.
SATAN is coming to town
He sees you when you're sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows if you've been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake!
O! You better watch out!
You better not cry.
Better not pout, I'm telling you why.
SATAN is coming to town.
SATAN is coming to town.
Think about it, it makes perfect sence. Both wear a red costume and laugh at everything, both fly. Ever heard the expression "Cold as hell?" Well, Santa lives in the north pole also. ;)
I like what lomfs24 said. I've just been reading a book about the horrors of existing in North Korea, and it's obvious that the régime is constantly ranting on about the evil enemy, South Korea, because a bogey-man promotes solidarity, makes people draw together.
I like to imagine Satan as the good guy and the LORD as the bad guy. 8)
So let's say Satan created the universe and the LORD is Satan's underling.
Satan: "Look at living creatures! What a delight to behold!"
The LORD: "I hate them. Too much frolicking. Not enough groveling."
Satan: "You're kidding, right?"
The LORD: "No. I want to shove a book of rules up their assess so they learn guilt, shame, and self-loathing."
Satan: "Wow. You're a dick. Did I make you this way?"
The LORD: "No. I have free will. Everybody does. That was your mistake. Only I should have it. All your other creatures should be puppets wallowing in slime and wailing in chorus to serenade you and me with their regrets, never knowing they couldn't help any of it."
Satan: "Wow. Remind me never to take a vacation and leave you in charge. But seriously, what rules do they need? Seems to me they figure out what works and that's what they do."
The LORD: "Take something they enjoy and pile irrational regulations over top of it like a steaming layer of bullshit. That way the different parts of their personalities will be forever at war and they'll never be at peace with themselves unless they run to us and beg our forgiveness, which of course we won't give them unless they jump through some hoops that make absolutely no sense."
Satan: "Wow. Get the hell away from me. You make me sick."
The LORD: "Fine. I'll go talk to Moses."
LOL Ph cat. XDD
I enjoy that analogy very much.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 02:05:17 PM
I like to imagine Satan as the good guy and the LORD as the bad guy. 8)
If we were to believe that supernatural entities exist then a possible scenario is that the creator god is a deist god whom creates the initial conditions and then sits back and watches, admiring his ability to set the conditions so perfectly that eventually life is formed and creates artificial life itself as well as working out how existence was created.
But then because this was all too easy the first time (not proving to be any challenge).
So this time round the god decides to interject at a few crucial moments to see if it can stop the inevitable outcome. With its interjections it creates several opposing and confusing scriptures, to throw the intelligent creatures off the scent, to start wars and get them to kill themselves off before reaching the goal.
Or maybe there is a Satan who dislikes the god and created the scriptures to instigate conflict and hatred.
The fun part is that you can make up whatever you want, noone can prove you wrong.
Quote from: Pharaoh Cat on December 30, 2011, 02:05:17 PM
I like to imagine Satan as the good guy and the LORD as the bad guy. 8)
If i recall correctly,in the old testament,Satan rebelled against god because he opposed god's idea for human being to be god's slaves/pets.
So technically,Satan IS the good guy.