5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1 (http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1)
Any thoughts?
I think that number 2 is actually a common misconception that theists have about atheists, and not atheists about religion. As for the others...yeah, I guess they're correct, in that they're misconceptions.
What exactly is wrong with number 1? XP
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 15, 2011, 01:10:17 AM
What exactly is wrong with number 1? XP
I think that generalizations (eg, "all religions", "all atheists", etc) are usually just prejudice and are inaccurate. So, I think it's unfair to say "all religions are equally crazy". For example, Mormonism is rather crazy since it claims that Jews are the ancestors of the Native Americans. And cults are really crazy because they make people kill themselves or do other really bizarre things. Not all religions are that extreme. The universalists, for example, are fairly mellow. That they believe things that may not necessarily be reasonable might be true, but that they're as crazy as other religions? I wouldn't go that far.
Atheists have so many views it is impossible to agree or disagree with the article, the examples given are accurate for some but not all, those that do apply to these points won't see anything wrong especially if they have been directly persecuted or come from a background where religion around them is particularly nutty. I can see why the journalist has written such an article as it is addressing the issues that he/she sees prevalent when conversing with atheists and especially relate to him/her which is made more apparent after reading their other article on the website titled "Should I Quit My Religion? Some Questions for the New Atheists (http://www.alternet.org/story/147357/should_i_quit_my_religion_some_questions_for_the_new_atheists/?page=entire)".
My own opinion on the points are: 1) I have never thought this, I have known a large variety of different theists some are a bit stricter than others but so far I have never conversed with a real life fundamentalist and the only experience I have had with the crazies are online, via TV and reading varying history books. From what I have observed of the "crazies" usually tend to come from three specific religions and those that are considered cults (but not much difference to me). 2) I don't like certain religions but I don't have the "get rid" mentality, though they do make good humor so may laugh at them at points but that doesn't make me anti-religious. There are some religions that I do like a lot such as Taoism yet there is also a branch and some byproducts of that religion I do not like. 3) Religion can cause bad behavior or should I say negative behavior but not all do, it comes down to the same issues in point one some are worse than others. 4) I agree with Christopher Hitchens quote on this one "to be religious is to be a theist". 5) Though I disagree that liberal and moderate religions justify extremism I do however think it can be an enabler of extremism. Though points one and three are relevant to what extremism within a religion constitutes, religions that have a cookie cutter mold of what humanity should be will always result in oppression and violence towards others, however religions that accept and embrace the diversity of humanity and nature usually create harmless hermits.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
No. There are some that are more crazy than others. Some are on another plane of crazy, I'm looking at you Scientology.
Quote2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
I and most atheists I know are not anti-religious. We could care less what other people believe as long as they don't think we should have to believe the same thing they do.
Quote3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
Not necessarily. It can and has been a catalyst and excuse for people to do horrible things but has also inspired the opposite in some folks. However, the question really would be, would those behaviors still manifest themselves if religion were removed from the equation?
Quote4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
This is a bit more complicated in that so often I've heard people refer to atheism as a religion or evolution as a religion and so on. This would be using a very broad and vague definition for the term. A more specific definition is one which is utilized by anthropologists and it does state that a characteristic of religion is a belief in the supernatural.
Quote5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
lol, wut?
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1 (http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1)
I think the author of this list is a bit misguided or misinformed and probably thinks every hipster kid reading a Hitchens book at Starbucks is representative of all atheists....I think I just offended much of the populace of Austin... :P
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1 (http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1)
Any thoughts?
Well, others have dealt with the "all these or those people" problem so I'll pass that one over.
1. I'm half guilty of this. While I don't consider all religions the same, I do consider them pretty much equally crazy tho by no means equally dangerous and some I consider completely harmless.
2. I read the article hoping for clarification on this one, but as others have mentioned it seems more like a theist misconception about atheists than the other way around.
3. Never thought this one, altho I do think religion's often used as a justification for bad behavior.
4. Not always, but certainly more often than not.
5. This one I've never gone along with.
I do have one question. What are your reasons/interests for creating the OP?
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1 (http://www.alternet.org/belief/151396/5_things_atheists_have_wrong_about_religion/?page=1)
Any thoughts?
None of the above is a view that a person must have simply because they are atheist.
I don't promote any of the above as I'm not that simple minded.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
This looks more like misconceptions some theists have about the misconceptions atheists have. I've heard these many times in discussions with theists, including my own family, and usually starts with the signal, "Yeah, but don't atheists think that..." Yes, there are some atheists that have at least one of these misconceptions, but as far as my experience goes, not many do.
It also appears to be a list of how many of the theists I discuss things with, miscunstrue my points. So I don't agree that these are five misconceptions atheists have, for me, it would fit better under, "five common ways theists straw man my arguments."
Quote from: Tank on December 15, 2011, 10:03:05 AM
I do have one question. What are your reasons/interests for creating the OP?
Someone in a Facebook group I'm in posted this and said it was a "great article". I said basically what a lot of people here have said--that some of these things are really misconceptions going the other way. But I just wanted to see if other people here agreed with me.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 03:57:55 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 15, 2011, 10:03:05 AM
I do have one question. What are your reasons/interests for creating the OP?
Someone in a Facebook group I'm in posted this and said it was a "great article". I said basically what a lot of people here have said--that some of these things are really misconceptions going the other way. But I just wanted to see if other people here agreed with me.
Understood.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
5 Things atheists have wrong about religion:
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
1. Most people I have come across on forums would mainly agree with this. The exception would possible be atheistic Buddism as it is quite possible to follow the ideals of Buddah without holding and superstitioys beliefs.
2. Some atheists classify themselves as anti-theists, but in my experience they are a small minority. Having said that I think the reaction of some theists towards atheists is creating more anti-theists and thus we have a feedback loop that is polarising the relationship of atheism.
3. Some religions do cause unacceptable behavior, from the minimal irritation of 'door knockers' to the examples on Islamist terrorists. But in general I don't think religion causes good or bad behaviour, I think it supports the innate behaviour of the individual concerned.
4. Again with the exception of Buddahism I would agree that all religions require a supernatural element. To my mind that's what makes a religion a religion.
5. No, I don't think so. Extremism is a state of mind that will express itself in a form supported be the culture the person lives in.
I agree with Davin on this. Summed up what I would have to say about it nicely.
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
No, they're not all the same - some are more crazy than others (damn right about Scientology too, Squid, but that was largely Hubbard's money-making scam than anything)
Fundies tend to be crazier than the moderates.
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
Nope. Some are, some aren't. Atheism just means lack of belief in a deity. As far as most atheists I know are concerned, if someone wants to believe the Earth is flat and the moon is made of dope then that's fine and dandy as long as they don't evangelize over it.
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things often takes religion." Can't remember who said that though....
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
Theistic religion does. Non-theistic religion (Buddhism?) doesn't.
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
No, but the fundies appear to be more pious and dedicated than the moderates, so the moderates often tend to shove their heads in the sand and pretend the fundies don't exist for fear of being branded antireligious.
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
(Buddhism?)
Yeah Buddhism in its very nature is atheistic, there are gods in certain strains of Buddhism but a belief in a god isn't a prerequisite for Buddhism. There are other religions that don't believe in a god such as the Samkhya and Mimamsa schools of Hinduism; Confucianism (humanist) and Taoism (focus on nature) though both started out as philosophies they are now considered to be religions and have multiple different forms, mostly without a god but similarly to Buddhism gods arise when the philosophy has merged with the folk religions; There is also Jainism that believe that every being - material or spiritual - is worthy of the same respect and do not worship anything. They are the ones I know of there may be more but I do not know of any others.
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things often takes religion." Can't remember who said that though....
Physicist Steven Weinberg of the University of Texas
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things often takes religion."
I think that's an oversimplification. Evidence has been presented to indicate that people will do things against their personal moral code if instructed to do so forcefully from an authority figure. Thus, perhaps blind obedience to authority causes good people to do bad things--not necessarily just religion. Obviously, some religious teachings do cause people to do bad things that they would otherwise not do, but I think it has more to do with bowing to authority than just religion itself.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 11:05:32 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things often takes religion."
I think that's an oversimplification. Evidence has been presented to indicate that people will do things against their personal moral code if instructed to do so forcefully from an authority figure. Thus, perhaps blind obedience to authority causes good people to do bad things--not necessarily just religion. Obviously, some religious teachings do cause people to do bad things that they would otherwise not do, but I think it has more to do with bowing to authority than just religion itself.
I agree that it is an over-simplification, experiments such as the Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) and the Stanford prison experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison) illustrate these sorts of situations well.
Besides people seeing their religious authority as being an authority on matters that transcend their religions or even areas of theological/philosophical expertise, it's easier for religious people to place the responsibility for their actions on another, either god or the devil: "the devil made me do it" and "its god's will". That in turn exacerbates what's called the Bystander effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect) in which the extent to which people feel responsible for their actions is indirectly proportional to the number of people involved. Though by no means do atheists always take responsibility for their actions, we don't have those two convenient options...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility)
I'm convinced that responsibility for one's actions is an important foundation of good behaviour and even morality. If criminals knew they were going to get caught and were going to answer for their crimes, they might've thought twice about committing a crime, or at least weighed their reasons more carefully. Believing that they're not going to get caught has the opposite effect. In that way, I can see how the whole idea of hell, and an omniscient god watching your every move evolved to make a more functional primitive/tribal society.
So...religion can facilitate immoral behavior, but it's a bit of a stretch to say that it causes it in some circumstances.
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
Capital S in "Same", eh?
They are not the same, but there are similarities. As far as theistic religions go, those include belief in the existence of highly questionable beings. It's no more crazy in itself, really, than believing in Santa or tooth faries, but organised religion does tend to turn the "mildly eccentric" into total whackjobs
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2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
Some are, some aren't. How is that wrong though?
Quote
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
...Among others by being a fine shield to hide your differently motivated actions behind. How is this wrong?
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4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
Theism is not necessarilly the same as religion. Theistic religions, however, do.
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5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
In that religious extremists can use the views of liberals and moderates for justification of their means, yes. I have not come across too many atheists who have made this particular point though.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 16, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 12:48:08 AM
1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
Capital S in "Same", eh?
Yeah, religious folk like to capitalize lots of words. Like third-person personal pronouns and familial relationships. :P
Quote from: Asmodean on December 16, 2011, 02:04:48 AM
Quote
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
In that religious extremists can use the views of liberals and moderates for justification of their means, yes. I have not come across too many atheists who have made this particular point though.
If the general consensus is god is real and his word written, it's probably logical to get hard-line, get god into the classroom, government, bedroom. Hey he is watching, the end is nigh, no time to be wishy washy, immortal souls are at stake.
Quote from: Crow on December 15, 2011, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
(Buddhism?)
Yeah Buddhism in its very nature is atheistic, there are gods in certain strains of Buddhism but a belief in a god isn't a prerequisite for Buddhism. There are other religions that don't believe in a god such as the Samkhya and Mimamsa schools of Hinduism; Confucianism (humanist) and Taoism (focus on nature) though both started out as philosophies they are now considered to be religions and have multiple different forms, mostly without a god but similarly to Buddhism gods arise when the philosophy has merged with the folk religions; There is also Jainism that believe that every being - material or spiritual - is worthy of the same respect and do not worship anything. They are the ones I know of there may be more but I do not know of any others.
Nice one. Thanks Crow! :)
Quote1. All Religions are the Same and are "Equally Crazy"
2. Atheists are Anti-Religious
3. Religion Causes Bad Behavior
4. Religion Requires a Belief in a Supernatural God
5. Liberal and Moderate Religion Justifies Religious Extremism
1: well I wouldn't say that they are "the Same", nor would I agree that the are "Equally Crazy". However, I do think that they are all "Equal" in the way that none of them are more valid or non-valid then any other. And I would replace "Crazy" with "hey are all Silly", because of their odd requirement to believe anything and everything that the "chiefs" or priests or whatnot tell them to believe and interpite their scriptures as they tell them, or the individuals interpite them as they want so that they fit their own world views.....
2: I relly don't see how this is something that atheist mistake about religion, as much as theists mistakenly thinking about athestis, as others have already noted....
3: no, I would never say it is a cause, but the used excuse for any and all acts that can be considered as "bad", from pointless and baseless bigotry to outright acts of violence and hate.
4: as pointed out by others, not all religions require belief in supernatural beings or whatever might be considered as "god". THey do however in my opinnion require some kind of written scripture or dogma, and a hierarchy. These can be found in practically every religion, even when the hierarchy is nothing more then a question of who is considered as a priest and who is not. Or that's my interpitation anyway....
5: I wouldn't know about them "justifying" extremism in anyway, instead I would argue that every religion has the possibility for extrimist interpitations and behaviour, and even outright fanaticism. It depends on the indivudual believers and "spreaders of the word" (priests, "prophets" and what have you) if such things will manifest, however.
Another "any thoughts?" posting. Do YOU have any thoughts? I must be in a bad mood, but I am tired of people quoting articles and asking for comments.
Jose AR
Quote from: Jose AR on December 17, 2011, 09:43:55 PM
Another "any thoughts?" posting. Do YOU have any thoughts? I must be in a bad mood, but I am tired of people quoting articles and asking for comments.
Jose AR
Chill...
Quote from: keithpenrod on December 15, 2011, 11:05:32 PM
Quote from: squidfetish on December 15, 2011, 08:38:35 PM
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things often takes religion."
I think that's an oversimplification. Evidence has been presented to indicate that people will do things against their personal moral code if instructed to do so forcefully from an authority figure. Thus, perhaps blind obedience to authority causes good people to do bad things--not necessarily just religion. Obviously, some religious teachings do cause people to do bad things that they would otherwise not do, but I think it has more to do with bowing to authority than just religion itself.
I think the 'often' part sort of covers that, but your post certainly unpacks the quote for clarity. :)