minus the already obvious contradictions of itself, and the scientifically inaccurate statements, what are some things that actually disprove the bibles validity? what about historical facts? was there a flood? is there any mention of an ark being built? what about jesus and the early church? what about prophecies made in the bible?
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 14, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
minus the already obvious contradictions of itself, and the scientifically inaccurate statements, what are some things that actually disprove the bibles validity? what about historical facts? was there a flood? is there any mention of an ark being built? what about jesus and the early church? what about prophecies made in the bible?
Depends on what you mean by "validity." The "Bible" is actually 66 separate writings (if we are talking about the Protestant Christian Bible), so you have to look at each writing to determine it's historical worth. There are historical accuracies in the various books, so to that extent, those books have some historical "validity." There are also various legends and mistakes and inaccuracies. It's not a one-size-fits-all inquiry. Your question is very broad. Perhaps if you narrowed it down to a particular issue that you want to discuss it will be more manageable.
No matter how much you disprove it, some people will still "follow" it, for a whole mess of usually not-too-good reasons.
Beyond that, what Bruce said holds its water nicely.
Well, there is no evidence of a global flood. But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.
Considered in this day and age, we still have not discovered every species of animal, I highly doubt an old man in a dinky boat existed.
Look at these stories, they are ridiculous and cannot make any sense in reality. :/
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 15, 2011, 01:13:30 AM
Considered in this day and age, we still have not discovered every species of animal, I highly doubt an old man in a dinky boat existed.
Look at these stories, they are ridiculous and cannot make any sense in reality. :/
Don't forget about all the creatures that have gone extinct, even if you just include the ones that humanity has wiped out. Also throw into the mix disease and food storage.
If you just look at the bible to see what it says about Noah's ark you see how silly it is, I have done it for you. If you start with the measurements presented in the bible (KJV) which were "300 cubits, its length; 50 cubits, its width; by 30 cubits, its height" then convert those into modern measurements, if you use the Egyptian royal cubit at its most generous a single cubit is the equivalent of 52.9cm so that equates to L:158.7 meters, W:26.45 meters, H:15.87 meters. Compare that with largest ship that has been created so far which is the Seawise Giant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawise_Giant) at L:458.46 meters. Next look at how many animals and birds of each kind were suppose to have been taken which in the KJV states "of every clean animal take you seven pairs, each with its mate (28 total), and of every animal that is not clean, one pair, each with its mate (4). Of the fowl of the heavens as well seven pairs (14), male and female, to keep seed alive upon the earth". So that's 28 of each type of clean animal, 4 of each of the unclean animals, and 14 of each kind of bird. Then the amount of mammals, reptile, and bird species we know about is estimated to be around 23,612, and if you are generous and decide that only 4 of each kind come along that is 94,448 but that's not what it says so if you just do the bird species that alone come to a total of 139,356. So I call bullshit and there are loads of other angles you can look at that show how silly this story is.
(edit: to try and make it slightly more readable)
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
Well, there is no evidence of a global flood. But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.
I once read a calculation by someone who showed that a large localized flood in Southern Iraq could have temporarily created a large inland sea that would have taken weeks to drain off. Someone stuck out in a boat or raft on that would think that the whole world was flooded. Think of being in the middle of Lake Superior, for example. That man could have escaped with his family and a few farm animals, and that would have been the seed for the story. Stories get bigger and bigger as they are told. This story was probably passed around for generations, and made it's appearance in various cultures in different forms. There is probably a seed of truth to most of the Old Testament stories.
By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history. He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.
Some stories like Samson killing a thousand people with the jawbone of an ass (was he a politician?) or Jonah being swallowed by a big fish (a Hebrew Pinnochio?) are legendary in form, but still probably originate from the experience of some person. Once you get out of the Torah, Joshua and Judges, and move into Samuel, Kings, etc., you get a little more historical (with theological interpretations and editing, of course), as people started to actually keep written records - especially scribes employed by kings and priests. But even then you get lots of editing. So the Old Testament is a mixed bag of fact, fiction, and fable. You just have to sift through the rubble to find the historical nuggets.
Wow, thanks for breaking down the numbers, Crow. <3
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 03:39:09 AM
By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history. He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.
:D I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...
;)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 06:43:58 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 03:39:09 AM
By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history. He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.
:D I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...
;)
Like others have said, there's no evidence for the flood. The Greeks had their own Noah (called Deucalion), and the Greek and Roman sources state that the flood myth was just a myth, to do with the belief that the world was periodically cleansed by water and by fire. Hence Jesus claims he's going to destroy the Earth with fire, as a conflagration was next in the cycle.
There's also no evidence for the Exodus. No evidence from Egypt that the Israelites were ever there, and no archaeological evidence in the Levant to show an invasion from that period. Indeed the archaeological evidence suggests that the Israelites were originally Canaanites, and Judaism evolved out of Canaanite religion.
There's some historical basis for the later books like Judges and Kings, but there's also heaps of mythology in there too, and these books were written centuries after the time they depict. They also overegg the pudding in making the kingdoms of Judah and Israel sound far more important than they actually were, distorting the historical reality of the period.
As for the New Testament, it all depends upon wether or not you can believe in virgin births, walking on water, resurrections from the dead etc. We have no evidence for Jesus, the apostles or a first century Church outside of the New Testament, and a lot of the gospels' story of Jesus can be found in the mythology of earlier gods, saviours, philosophers, heroes and sons of gods. There may have been a historical man behind the myth or there may not, I think that only matters if you're a Christian.
The archaeological evidence for early Christianity is surprisingly scarce, which makes me personally question the validity of the history the Church has written about itself. We have no archaeological evidence for Christianity prior to the third century, and absolutely nothing dated to the first century.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 06:43:58 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 03:39:09 AM
By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history. He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.
:D I don't know if I should laugh at that or facepalm...
;)
Both. Works for me *LWFP - Laughing While FacePalm* ;D
Quote from: AsmoNo matter how much you disprove it, some people will still "follow" it, for a whole mess of usually not-too-good reasons.
I'm afraid that's right. Whatever proofs are brought, faithheads will find a way round. They want and need to believe, and a few little facts won't bother them. We've seen that on this forum.
In Arthur C Clarke's SF novel
Childhood's End, the alien Overlords provide mankind with machines that can look back in time and view past events. In Clarke's story that killed all religions, but I've often thought that it probably wouldn't. The nutters would simply deny the validity of the machine, as they now do with our present science. As for archaeology, biblical contradictions and so on - forget it!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 15, 2011, 03:39:09 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
Well, there is no evidence of a global flood. But a gracious reader could simply assume that by global the writer simply didn't know anything past whatever areas he had traveled....a very large localized flood; of which there have been many.
I once read a calculation by someone who showed that a large localized flood in Southern Iraq could have temporarily created a large inland sea that would have taken weeks to drain off. Someone stuck out in a boat or raft on that would think that the whole world was flooded. Think of being in the middle of Lake Superior, for example. That man could have escaped with his family and a few farm animals, and that would have been the seed for the story. Stories get bigger and bigger as they are told. This story was probably passed around for generations, and made it's appearance in various cultures in different forms. There is probably a seed of truth to most of the Old Testament stories.
By the way, Noah was the greatest business man in history. He floated a limited partnership while the rest of the world was in liquidation.
Some stories like Samson killing a thousand people with the jawbone of an ass (was he a politician?) or Jonah being swallowed by a big fish (a Hebrew Pinnochio?) are legendary in form, but still probably originate from the experience of some person. Once you get out of the Torah, Joshua and Judges, and move into Samuel, Kings, etc., you get a little more historical (with theological interpretations and editing, of course), as people started to actually keep written records - especially scribes employed by kings and priests. But even then you get lots of editing. So the Old Testament is a mixed bag of fact, fiction, and fable. You just have to sift through the rubble to find the historical nuggets.
if i remember correctly the old testament was supposedly written by moses? which of course brings us to the story of moses and how much fact there is to that. i have no problem disbeleiving stories like jonah, anybody with a brain knows that is impossible for a variety of reasons. then there is also another question especially about the new testament, did jesus actually exist? if so did he actually perform miracles? so far i have yet to find any records of jesus (and even those are mere mentions of it) that aren't written 100 or more years after he died. i also wonder what about the prophecy of the temple being destroyed? i mean, if i remember correctly, it actually was destroyed by rome. (correct me if im wrong, not the greatest history-wise)
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 15, 2011, 03:17:37 PM
if i remember correctly the old testament was supposedly written by moses? which of course brings us to the story of moses and how much fact there is to that. i have no problem disbeleiving stories like jonah, anybody with a brain knows that is impossible for a variety of reasons. then there is also another question especially about the new testament, did jesus actually exist? if so did he actually perform miracles? so far i have yet to find any records of jesus (and even those are mere mentions of it) that aren't written 100 or more years after he died. i also wonder what about the prophecy of the temple being destroyed? i mean, if i remember correctly, it actually was destroyed by rome. (correct me if im wrong, not the greatest history-wise)
Yeah, I doubt very much that Moses ever existed, I'd put the likelihood at something similar to Cadmus or Orpheus having existed. The books ascribed to Moses mostly date from the 8th-6th centuries BCE, long after his supposed lifetime.
You're right about the non-Christian mentions of Jesus being written at least a century after his lifetime, and generally based on hearsay. I think Jesus' temple prediction is easy to explain, that part of the gospel of Mark was written after the temple at Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70CE.
Damn it, that's my 666th post, I'm not sure I want to post again, this way I get to keep the title 'Evil Inside'. I might have to rejoin as a newbie! ;)
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 15, 2011, 03:17:37 PM
if i remember correctly the old testament was supposedly written by moses?
Traditionally, it is the first five books of the Bible (the Torah) that were written by Moses, and then maybe a psalm and some say maybe Job. I don't think anyone claims that the rest of the OT was written by him.
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 15, 2011, 03:17:37 PM
which of course brings us to the story of moses and how much fact there is to that.
Like other figures in the OT, there may very well have been a Moses figure that provides the historical seed for the story.
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 15, 2011, 03:17:37 PM
then there is also another question especially about the new testament, did jesus actually exist? if so did he actually perform miracles? so far i have yet to find any records of jesus (and even those are mere mentions of it) that aren't written 100 or more years after he died. i also wonder what about the prophecy of the temple being destroyed? i mean, if i remember correctly, it actually was destroyed by rome. (correct me if im wrong, not the greatest history-wise)
Personally, I think there is sufficient evidence to form an opinion that Jesus existed. That's a long discussion, however. The earliest extant writings that we have relating to the historical Jesus are the epistles of Paul. The originals of those were probably written circa 50-65 C.E., or from 20-35 years after the time typically assumed for Jesus' death. The earliest manuscripts that we have from Paul date much later, but there is a general consensus that he originally wrote at the time I mentioned above, and that we have a good idea what he originally wrote.
With respect to miracles reported in the gospels and in Paul, whether or not to believe in those is, in my opinion, not simply a matter of historical analysis. It involves one's own personal experience with God. If one has no such experience, there is no reason to believe the miracle accounts. If a person has what he/she interprets to be such a personal, subjective experience, there is a basis for believing in God, which opens up the possibility of things beyond the normal, such as miracles.
With respect to the destruction of the Temple, that occurred in 70 C.E. when the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem. IMO, the gospel of Mark was written before then, and the earliest prophecy of the Temple's destruction is contained in that book. All of this, of course, is subject to debate.
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 14, 2011, 09:54:27 PM
was there a flood? is there any mention of an ark being built?
The biblical flood story is a direct rip from the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where the hero was called Utnapishtim and he was given boatbuilding directions from above etc etc. The proto-Jews had a sense of mission and naturally wanted to convert other people to their new monotheistic religion. One way to do this was to take a pre-existing story of a common theme such as a flood and just retell the story with one all-powerful god rather than many argumentative and fractious gods. The main difference between the stories is that the biblical account is monotheistic (one god) whereas the Gilgamesh story is polytheistic (many gods). A feature of ancient religion is that the stories told about the gods were pretty much a reflection of human life on the ground, and the gods were written of as being argumentative, selfish, jealous as well as many other human attributes. A key feature if the new proto-judaism was the change to one monolithic, all-knowing, all-good god. Not surprisingly many of the stories told concerned themes that were of extreme importance to a subsistence lifestyle - flood, famine, war, pestilence etc.
The book of Genesis is full of themes and motifs nicked from pre-existing near-eastern traditions in order to give potential recruits something familiar to hang on to.
What is the validity of The Odyssey? Or the Iliad? Beowulf?
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:21:03 AM
What is the validity of The Odyssey? Or the Iliad? Beowulf?
HEY! Mess not with Beowulf! That DID happen. >:(
:P
Quote from: Asmodean on December 16, 2011, 02:08:10 AM
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:21:03 AM
What is the validity of The Odyssey? Or the Iliad? Beowulf?
HEY! Mess not with Beowulf! That DID happen. >:(
:P
*chucklin*...as did Troy.
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 16, 2011, 02:08:10 AM
Quote from: Gawen on December 16, 2011, 01:21:03 AM
What is the validity of The Odyssey? Or the Iliad? Beowulf?
HEY! Mess not with Beowulf! That DID happen. >:(
:P
*chucklin*...as did Troy.
I love Troy!
Paris <3 <3
a few of the random thoughts ive had throughout the day.....
if the new testament and new testament only existed, christianity MIGHT, make a LITTLE bit more sense. the problem here is the old testament god sounds like the new testament satan. since many verses in the bible claim god is unchanging, we here have a problem. the new testament god is a loving, saving, accepting god, of course with strings attached. the god of the new testament also show no favoritism Romans 2:11 "For God does not show favoritism" yet all throughout the old testament, god chooses Israel and only Israel as his chosen people. choosing a certain race or nationality of people is CERTAINLY showing favoristism. "james 1:13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;" now we have exodus 9:12 saying "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses." WHY ON EARTH WOULD GOD MAKE IT HARDER TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE? god wants all men to be saved. " 1 timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7"
wait, if god wants all men to be saved, then why does he not simply just do it? if god is god, and is all powerful, he can do as he pleases. most of our "sins" we commit are simply us following our natural survival instincs, sexual sins such as lust for example. without it, who would ever fall in love with another member of the opposite sex, marry, and have children preserving us as a species? all love, and all procreation, begins with lust and without it, nobody would ever be driven to procreate, marry, etc etc etc. also if i am not mistaken, humans preference as to what kind of partner is most appealing to them is based soley on genetic traits the other person has that mix well with your genetic traits (long explanation, multiple youtube videos and links would have to be provided to prove my point, just google science of attraction, science of sex etc.) which is why i, nor most people of sound mind are sexually attracted to relatives and lust (i.e. physical attraction) is required for this to work correctly. lust is necessary for mankind and all animal life to continue to live on.
matt. 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Do Not Worry
25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?
28 "And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
here we have yet another problem. unfortunately, we HAVE to go to work and make money, there is just no way around it, we have to worry about what we will eat, drink, and wear because if we don't, nobody else is going to do it for us. these things are nessecities, we have to have food, clothing, and shelter to survive, the only way to obtain those things is to go out, get a job, and work for them.
" Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them." no, they just get up out of their nest and spend a large part of their day looking for food. all animals do. it just so happens we have developed advanced methods of securing and ensuring we have food through agriculture.
Quote from: yepimonfire on December 16, 2011, 04:57:44 AM
" Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them." no, they just get up out of their nest and spend a large part of their day looking for food. all animals do. it just so happens we have developed advanced methods of securing and ensuring we have food through agriculture.
Birds have the good life...never mind actually struggling for their survival, they're well provided for ::)
It is not my job to disprove the bible. I don't have to disprove the Iliad, and nobody seems to mind. The bible is literature; and deserves the same status as shakespeare or a harlequin romance.
Jose AR