My question is, would you consider me an atheist?
Here are some of my views:
1) I believe it is reasonable to suspect that one or more forces, unknown by the current state of human knowledge, were involved in the creation of the universe.
2) I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that I should view any of the world's religions as more than interesting fables or myths.
3) I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that consciousness exists after brain death.
I suppose so, as long as this unknown force is thought to be weird physics, not gawd.
No sneaking and adding "and yet I do" after points 1) and 2).
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 03:58:55 AM
My question is, would you consider me an atheist?
Here are some of my views:
1) I believe it is reasonable to suspect that one or more forces, unknown by the current state of human knowledge, were involved in the creation of the universe.
2) I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that I should view any of the world's religions as more than interesting fables or myths.
3) I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that consciousness exists after brain death.
That's pretty much my view of things and I consider myself an atheist.
I suppose the criteria for atheism can be flexible, however, whatever your view of these unknown forces may be it's important that they not be magical deities or space aliens. That's non-negotiable. Other than that, I'm cool with the unknown forces concept. At least it gets one thinking which is something religion frowns upon.
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
I like this.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Simple and to the point.
Hi mjolnir
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Regards
Chris
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hello Thor's hammer, welcome to the forum. What you believe isn't unreasonable, I'd agree with points 2 and 3. From point 1, you might also be an agnostic or a deist, depending on how close you deem those forces to be to your definition of a god.
Welcome to the forum!
I cannot put it better than xSilverPhinx. However, if you are a theist, you're vastly more rational than a cookie-cutter christian. And you're thinking - that's the important thing.
Welcome!
Whether or not you are an atheist is for you to answer.
Does it matter though? Do you just want a label that fits? Or to fit a label, in case I've got things reversed..?
Do you believe in anything that meets the criteria to be defined as gods?
If NO, then you are an atheist.
If YES, then you are some kind of theist.
Hi mjolnir and welcome.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Quote from: Whitney on December 05, 2011, 02:32:55 PM
Do you believe in anything that meets the criteria to be defined as gods?
If NO, then you are an atheist.
If YES, then you are some kind of theist.
These are what constitutes an atheist. nothing more nothing less.
In regards to point one, it is still possible to be atheist with a belief of this sort just look at the Taoist concept of the Tao, by large the religion is atheistic and the gods that are found in the folk form of the religion are more like a government rather than the christian/jewish/islamic concept, i.e. they aren't the creators, they are the managers.
Quote from: Crow on December 05, 2011, 05:07:47 PM
In regards to point one, it is still possible to be atheist with a belief of this sort just look at the Taoist concept of the Tao, by large the religion is atheistic and the gods that are found in the folk form of the religion are more like a government rather than the christian/jewish/islamic concept, i.e. they aren't the creators, they are the managers.
That's why I like the word "ignostic" ;D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
That's why I like the word "ignostic" ;D
Oh, admit it, it's beause it begins with a small i, like everything else cool these days :P (Needs to have a big G though. iGnostic. See? The coolometer rising... Falling... Just like that. Going to sub-zero, that is.)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 06:58:05 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
That's why I like the word "ignostic" ;D
Oh, admit it, it's beause it begins with a small i, like everything else cool these days :P (Needs to have a big G though. iGnostic. See? The coolometer rising... Falling... Just like that. Going to sub-zero, that is.)
Yep. 8)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 06:58:05 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 06:18:32 PM
That's why I like the word "ignostic" ;D
Oh, admit it, it's beause it begins with a small i, like everything else cool these days :P (Needs to have a big G though. iGnostic. See? The coolometer rising... Falling... Just like that. Going to sub-zero, that is.)
Agreed. iGnostic. Gonna start typing it like that from now on. ;)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
Whether or not you are an atheist is for you to answer.
Does it matter though? Do you just want a label that fits? Or to fit a label, in case I've got things reversed..?
I want a label that fits. I'm not sure if my viewpoint is considered agnostic or atheist.
Heheh... Wanting a label... Nothing really wrong with that, I suppose.
Well, in that case, you can just label yourself out of your stance on gods. Do you believe in such things or not? You can also refuse to take a stand either way, in which case you would probably be agnostic. (Although an agnostic who technically does not believe in gods is a de-facto atheist)
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:04:51 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
Whether or not you are an atheist is for you to answer.
Does it matter though? Do you just want a label that fits? Or to fit a label, in case I've got things reversed..?
I want a label that fits. I'm not sure if my viewpoint is considered agnostic or atheist.
How about the label: "mjolnir the crusher"? "Agnostic atheist" simply means that you don't believe in a god and also that no one can know for sure if there is or isn't a god. There are a lot of labels, however I doubt that you'll find one that fits as well as your name.
Quote from: Tank on December 05, 2011, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Simple and to the point.
It's a simple point only if you can define "god." Is the gravitational force a "god?" What about the electromagnetic force? What causes it to exist? Where does it come from? Is the concept of "god" an abstraction used to explain the cause of unknown forces?
Let's say you hold the view that Big Bang is our best explanation of the origin of our visible universe (and I do hold this view). Then, what force(s) created the singularity of matter that existed at the moment the Big Bang occurred?
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PM
It's a simple point only if you can define "god."
No, if
you can. Your label largely hinges on your definition of a deity, not ours.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 05, 2011, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Simple and to the point.
It's a simple point only if you can define "god." Is the gravitational force a "god?" What about the electromagnetic force? What causes it to exist? Where does it come from? Is the concept of "god" an abstraction used to explain the cause of unknown forces?
Let's say you hold the view that Big Bang is our best explanation of the origin of our visible universe (and I do hold this view). Then, what force(s) created the singularity of matter that existed at the moment the Big Bang occurred?
Why God? (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=8210.0) You can wade in there after your 10 getting to know you posts are done.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PMLet's say you hold the view that Big Bang is our best explanation of the origin of our visible universe (and I do hold this view). Then, what force(s) created the singularity of matter that existed at the moment the Big Bang occurred?
I like the Big Bang Theory, and I'd like to see if it can somehow be confirmed. What we do know is that the universe is expanding and that we can estimate the "age of the universe as we know it" to a fairly reasonable degree - about 13.75 Billion years. But...beyond the very earliest stages of the universe, The Big Bang Theory becomes the Big Bang Hypothesis when such things as "Universal Singularities" are discussed, because this inference would require an empiracle knowledge of physics we are not yet capable of either replicating or observing in order to be reasonably sure of that inference.
Nevertheless, people talk about "Singularities" and the Universe just "Popping into existence" like they really know what they are talking about. I mean, I've never seen so much Oyster Soup brewed from a single oyster.
So...there's some things we just don't know for sure...yet! But in any case, why insert the Supernatural into the equation?
Furthermore, people tend to assume that Physics gives us a sharper view of reality than is possible. Now...Modern Physics can do some crazy-cool things. It can confirm a Black Holes, help us understand Quasars and Quantum Mechanics can be used for such mundane things as designing a new laser or predicting the reliability of ultra-small circuits. But...we'll always have limits to our physical knowledge even as we keep expanding it at a mighty rate. In fact, every time we find answers, we realize that there are even more questions that need to be answered!
Meanwhile, the more we find out about the universe, the less "Conceptual Sense" it seems to make (e.g., Common Sense). For example, have you ever thought about what might be the underlying physics of Newtonian Gravity? It's mind blowing! To this I say, "Who says reality is there for us to totally comprehend - and how can they possibly say that?" Likewise, this is yet another reason not to inject the Supernatural as a possible cause of a physical phenomenon - for today's mysteries are tomorrow's answers - and there's no reason that this will be different in the future.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 05, 2011, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Simple and to the point.
It's a simple point only if you can define "god." Is the gravitational force a "god?" What about the electromagnetic force? What causes it to exist? Where does it come from? Is the concept of "god" an abstraction used to explain the cause of unknown forces?
Let's say you hold the view that Big Bang is our best explanation of the origin of our visible universe (and I do hold this view). Then, what force(s) created the singularity of matter that existed at the moment the Big Bang occurred?
Perhaps you are a pantheist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
I think that when anyone uses the word god they are thinking of a superior consciousness that is responsible for all of existence....which would mean that anything that is right to call god would be some kind of being and not just a natural phenomena.
How about ignostic? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism)
Does the word 'god' to you have to describe something that is intelligent and conscious? Capable of planning the creation of a universe, for instance?
iGnostic Atheist, Dawkinator, never reborn!
View Profile WWW Personal Message (Online)
Re: Am I an atheist?
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:18:32 AM »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: Crow on Yesterday at 10:07:47 AM
In regards to point one, it is still possible to be atheist with a belief of this sort just look at the Taoist concept of the Tao, by large the religion is atheistic and the gods that are found in the folk form of the religion are more like a government rather than the christian/jewish/islamic concept, i.e. they aren't the creators, they are the managers. in itself
That's why I like the word "ignostic" Grin
agnostic is viewed by some as a wishy washy non ism
if u can find an interview with compass on abc net au // iview / with a ex pom called peter cundll now in tasmania - a bit like purgatory
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:04:51 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
Whether or not you are an atheist is for you to answer.
Does it matter though? Do you just want a label that fits? Or to fit a label, in case I've got things reversed..?
I want a label that fits. I'm not sure if my viewpoint is considered agnostic or atheist.
You don't really need to be labeled. Just be yourself. It's not so difficult to figure "hey, I do" or "don't believe in the invisible, improbable, sky daddy."
I don't go shouting out "i'm atheist!!" to the world. I just go about my day normally.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 11:24:18 PM
How about ignostic? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism)
Does the word 'god' to you have to describe something that is intelligent and conscious? Capable of planning the creation of a universe, for instance?
Nice, I like the article about ignosticism.
I consider the world's major religions to be a low quality way of understanding the creation of the universe, and I see no reason to believe in any god proposed by any of these religions. If the concept of god is limited to the gods associated with religions, then I'm most likely an atheist.
If god is defined as a force that created the universe, then I believe it is reasonable to speculate that there may have been a force (or forces), prior to the current known forces (e.g. gravitational, electromagnetic, strong, weak), that created the universe and its laws and dimensions. This force may or may not be conscious (it doesn't have to play an architect role, but it could). If a force that created the universe (or set it into motion, or specified its rules) is considered to be a god, then I may not be an atheist.
Quote from: Whitney on December 05, 2011, 11:11:08 PM
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:14:44 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 05, 2011, 08:38:18 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 05:46:44 AM
Welcome!
If you believe in some sort of god, then you're not an atheist. If you don't, then you are.
Simple and to the point.
It's a simple point only if you can define "god." Is the gravitational force a "god?" What about the electromagnetic force? What causes it to exist? Where does it come from? Is the concept of "god" an abstraction used to explain the cause of unknown forces?
Let's say you hold the view that Big Bang is our best explanation of the origin of our visible universe (and I do hold this view). Then, what force(s) created the singularity of matter that existed at the moment the Big Bang occurred?
Perhaps you are a pantheist? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
I think that when anyone uses the word god they are thinking of a superior consciousness that is responsible for all of existence....which would mean that anything that is right to call god would be some kind of being and not just a natural phenomena.
Excellent link. I haven't explored Pantheism before, but it's something I can relate to - especially this part of the wiki:
Einstein relates his belief to Pantheism: "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 06, 2011, 07:00:27 PM
Quote from: mjolnir on December 05, 2011, 10:04:51 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 05, 2011, 01:44:23 PM
Whether or not you are an atheist is for you to answer.
Does it matter though? Do you just want a label that fits? Or to fit a label, in case I've got things reversed..?
I want a label that fits. I'm not sure if my viewpoint is considered agnostic or atheist.
You don't really need to be labeled. Just be yourself. It's not so difficult to figure "hey, I do" or "don't believe in the invisible, improbable, sky daddy."
I don't go shouting out "i'm atheist!!" to the world. I just go about my day normally.
That's good that works for you. However, I'd like to structure my thoughts and figure out if I am an atheist, agnostic, ignostic, pantheist, or something else.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 07, 2011, 03:12:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 05, 2011, 11:24:18 PM
How about ignostic? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism)
Does the word 'god' to you have to describe something that is intelligent and conscious? Capable of planning the creation of a universe, for instance?
Nice, I like the article about ignosticism.
I consider the world's major religions to be a low quality way of understanding the creation of the universe, and I see no reason to believe in any god proposed by any of these religions. If the concept of god is limited to the gods associated with religions, then I'm most likely an atheist.
If god is defined as a force that created the universe, then I believe it is reasonable to speculate that there may have been a force (or forces), prior to the current known forces (e.g. gravitational, electromagnetic, strong, weak), that created the universe and its laws and dimensions. This force may or may not be conscious (it doesn't have to play an architect role, but it could). If a force that created the universe (or set it into motion, or specified its rules) is considered to be a god, then I may not be an atheist.
So basically you associate whatever caused the universe to exist (assuming there was a cause) with what the religious call god, even though they add personality traits, purpose and such to their gods?
The problem with the word 'god' is that it's already as loaded word and it's in regard to the general consensus on that word's meaning, even with all the variations that I call myself an atheist.
Would you worship or pay homage to a force or forces that set the universe in motion (assuming that was the case?)
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 07, 2011, 04:31:46 AM
So basically you associate whatever caused the universe to exist (assuming there was a cause) with what the religious call god, even though they add personality traits, purpose and such to their gods?
I associate what religious people call god with unicorns and leprechauns.
I associate whatever force caused the universe to exist with something that can be described through mathematics and experimental data.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 07, 2011, 04:31:46 AM
Would you worship or pay homage to a force or forces that set the universe in motion (assuming that was the case?)
Worship or pay homage = no.
Admire its design = yes.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 07, 2011, 03:12:15 AM
If a force that created the universe (or set it into motion, or specified its rules) is considered to be a god, then I may not be an atheist.
Not necessarily, I mentioned the Taoist concept of Tao in an earlier post and that's exactly what it refers to; the original force that came from nothing, they do not see it as a god in any way shape or form and is not a conscious entity. For Taoists it is the basic foundations of everything, yet as a part not a whole. On the other hand if you spoke to a person that believes in a monotheistic god then they would probably consider what you said to be a god.
Quote from: Crow on December 08, 2011, 04:00:52 AM
Not necessarily, I mentioned the Taoist concept of Tao in an earlier post and that's exactly what it refers to; the original force that came from nothing, they do not see it as a god in any way shape or form and is not a conscious entity. For Taoists it is the basic foundations of everything, yet as a part not a whole. On the other hand if you spoke to a person that believes in a monotheistic god then they would probably consider what you said to be a god.
Is this the Taoist concept of creation you're referring to?
"Heaven and Earth were once the Chaos (hun-tun) like a chicken's egg, in which
P'an-ku was born. After eighteen thousand years, this chaotic mass split apart,
what was high and clear forming Heaven, and what was dark and turbid
forming Earth. P'an-ku stood between them. His body transformed nine times
daily while his head supported the Heaven and his feet stabilized the Earth... " - http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=96381299
It's kind of funny given that the singularity is said to be the most ordered state the universe has ever been in :P
Quote from: mjolnir on December 08, 2011, 03:04:43 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 07, 2011, 04:31:46 AM
So basically you associate whatever caused the universe to exist (assuming there was a cause) with what the religious call god, even though they add personality traits, purpose and such to their gods?
I associate what religious people call god with unicorns and leprechauns.
I associate whatever force caused the universe to exist with something that can be described through mathematics and experimental data.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 07, 2011, 04:31:46 AM
Would you worship or pay homage to a force or forces that set the universe in motion (assuming that was the case?)
Worship or pay homage = no.
Admire its design = yes.
Sounds basically like atheism to me...
Going into the whole label thing, you even find people who describe themselves as atheistic pantheists. There are even theistic or deistic variations of pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism) in the mix.
I believe I'm getting close to answering my question.
I'm 100% Naturalistic Pantheist according this quiz - http://www.selectsmart.com/plus/select.php?url=pantheism
maybe becuase you leave the door open for the force that created the universe to be a deity, you are an agnostic.
Quote from: Jose AR on December 08, 2011, 05:31:54 PM
maybe becuase you leave the door open for the force that created the universe to be a deity, you are an agnostic.
It depends on how god is defined.
If the definition of god is limited to religious gods (Yahweh, Allah, Krishna, etc), then I'm atheist.
If the definition of god is expanded to include the force(s) that created or set the universe in motion, then I'm agnostic - I have no clue what these forces are like or if they even exist.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 08, 2011, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: Jose AR on December 08, 2011, 05:31:54 PM
maybe becuase you leave the door open for the force that created the universe to be a deity, you are an agnostic.
It depends on how god is defined.
If the definition of god is limited to religious gods (Yahweh, Allah, Krishna, etc), then I'm atheist.
If the definition of god is expanded to include the force(s) that created or set the universe in motion, then I'm agnostic - I have no clue what these forces are like or if they even exist.
Find a brick. Drop it on your foot. Report back on your findings.
Quote from: Tank on December 08, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Find a brick. Drop it on your foot. Report back on your findings.
Lame...
Tank, great answer. XDD
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 12:33:17 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 08, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Find a brick. Drop it on your foot. Report back on your findings.
Lame...
I don't know, it
did answer the question.
You are either an atheist or a theist, there is no inbetween,
You either believe that there is a god or you believe that there aren't any gods or you don't have a belief in god/s
If you answer yes to "you believe that there aren't any gods" or if you answer yes to "you don't have a belief in god/s" then you are an atheist.
It seems rare to find an agnostic theist although theoretically there should be many of them, they just won't admit it.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 12:33:17 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 08, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Find a brick. Drop it on your foot. Report back on your findings.
Lame...
Very good! :D
(He'd be lame after dropping a brick on his foot)
Quote from: Tank on December 09, 2011, 09:33:47 AM
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 12:33:17 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 08, 2011, 08:00:00 PM
Find a brick. Drop it on your foot. Report back on your findings.
Lame...
Very good! :D
(He'd be lame after dropping a brick on his foot)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theatvzone.com%2Fforums%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fhmm.gif&hash=172c81f53e3924193aebfb0a35ee89fe73f5a05f) There is a joke in there somewhere. And The Asmo shall locate it, just you wait!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 09, 2011, 04:10:12 AM
Tank, great answer. XDD
It was a terrible answer and would be a completely irrelevant experiment.
1. The gravitational force did not emerge until after the Big Bang. Dropping a brick would provide no insight into what caused the Big Bang.
2. The experiment would provide no insight into why gravity exists. The question would still remain, what force was responsible for shaping our universe, in other words - what force determined that our universe would have gravity?
I've found the answer to the question I originally posed in this thread, and my work here is done.
I appreciate the replies of those that have taken the time to respond thoughtfully and respectfully.
Best wishes to you all.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 09, 2011, 04:10:12 AM
Tank, great answer. XDD
It was a terrible answer and would be a completely irrelevant experiment.
1. The gravitational force did not emerge until after the Big Bang. Dropping a brick would provide no insight into what caused the Big Bang.
2. The experiment would provide no insight into why gravity exists. The question would still remain, what force was responsible for shaping our universe, in other words - what force determined that our universe would have gravity?
You're right. My bad. Having re-read what I was responding to I had missed the point that you were refereing to the causes of the big bang. And in that respect I too would be agnostic in terms of attributing a cause. Which is why I have much less of an issue with deists than theists as the former make no claim about a god's intent for or ongoing involvement with the universe.
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 01:56:56 PM
I've found the answer to the question I originally posed in this thread, and my work here is done.
I appreciate the replies of those that have taken the time to respond thoughtfully and respectfully.
Best wishes to you all.
Well don't be a stranger, come back when you have another question. ;D
Quote from: mjolnir on December 09, 2011, 01:56:56 PM
I've found the answer to the question I originally posed in this thread, and my work here is done.
I appreciate the replies of those that have taken the time to respond thoughtfully and respectfully.
Best wishes to you all.
Might we ask what your conclusions were?
*sniff I feel so used and discarded. :'(