Workplace discrimination complaints double (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/25/workplace-religious-discrimination_n_1112313.html)
I'll admit it, due to my own bias when I saw the headline I automatically thought it would be Xtians complaining again, and I probably would have been less sympathetic, but it appears to be largely Muslim workers complaining and I tend to think they have a case more often.
The specific example in the article is about Muslim woman wearing a hijab at work, which makes her quite obviously Muslim and she believes this is the cause of her lack of advancement in a sales job, and then transfering to a new location where she was lead to believe another job with the company awaited her only to find there wasn't one and she was out of work.
There isn't much detail given for the other side, and that's not my main interest in this story. I've noticed that there's a great deal of hostility towards the practice of covering one's face for any reason and I've never really understood this. Yes, one shouldn't be allowed to cover one's face in a photo that can be used for ID purposes (like that Muslim woman who wanted to keep her hijab on for a driver's licence photo) but other than that I don't understand what the problem is or why people feel they have the right to see someone else's face.
The usual response I get is that a large part of communication is thru facial expressions and I'm sure that's right but the inability to see the face you're talking to is hardly a communication deal breaker or we wouldn't be able to use phones, and the blind might as well be deaf too. Clearly that's not the case, and to me the next most obvious conclusion is in fact religious or cultural bigotry.
I think it makes more sense in a setting where both identification is important and people don't necessarily know who you are (which excludes the workplace). Stores, or places where things can be robbed or crimes committed already don't allow people to wear things like motorcycle helmets for this reason.
I think there is a large cultural element to this, but it's probably unavoidable. Clothes will probably always have a relative cultural significance, no matter how open minded we try to be. I could get fired for wearing next to no clothing to work, even if I don't fall into the (vague) legal definition of "public indecency." Employers are just hyper-sensitive about the cultural messages their workers send out and whether it fits in with their own business image.
That being said, beyond situations where one has to legally confirm their identity (using a passport, getting a driver's license, voting, etc) I don't care if someone wants to wear a bag over their head all day.
I just look at it as a safety issue. If I cant idenitfy you as a person, I am concerned for my safety.
Honestly, people shouldnt be allowed to wear those in any workplace.
The lady in question was only wearing a head scarf, not a full face vail. No reason, in the environment, for there to be any issue at all.
I wouldn't have a problem if an employee of mine wore one. If she was good at her job I don't see the problem as the hijab unlike the burka can be worn with any type of uniform. The hijab can look nice and stylish if worn well. Nobody complains about Queen Elizabeth wearing a headscarf or when fashion designers have their models wear a headscarf, so I see no problem with the hijab same bloody thing but with some BS religious association.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.photographersdirect.com%2Fimg%2F29508%2Fwm%2Fpd2515440.jpg&hash=ff96060c2086a4a49a489e325477b05a16e10fe3)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_MOUla7RKEQM%2FTUr0mYtmLBI%2FAAAAAAAAAK0%2F18zaUACTc48%2Fs640%2Flunapic_129675701599106_3.jpg&hash=053807b1d1fcfc8ea877acfd64dfa8bedca37ead)(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_MOUla7RKEQM%2FTUr8PQ5oVKI%2FAAAAAAAAALw%2FbsFgsHMWPrA%2Fs400%2FAudrey-Scarf-and-glasses-portrait-audrey-hepburn-2505873-302-452.jpg&hash=68544ed20b610e1fe1bc14fc3e9d165001a27459)
The Burqa can be quite attractive:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdnimg.visualizeus.com%2Fthumbs%2F1f%2F7d%2Fburqa%2Cislam%2Cnude%2Cwoman-1f7daec59b25d557e67d418751d709ed_m.jpg&hash=b0c33ef291b970142e57a2506942ae9b7eb82a17)
@oldgit
lol, eff'ing brilliant.
Thank you, Crow. You should see some of the results I got with safe search off! Just a bit too NFSW, though.
I love you, oldgit xDD <3
Head coverings don't bother me, but face coverings do, for the reasons mentioned by several above, plus for the reason that it prevents full communication. We don't just communicate with words, but facial expressions, body language, voice inflection, etc., play a part. Anything that inhibits full communication and expression in the working environment can lead to miscommunication and all its attendant misfortunes. Furthermore, the face is the primary expression of humanity. Covering it detracts from human dignity and introduces an element of dehumanization into the work world. It's hard to respect someone whose face you can't see. They don't look human.
Quote from: OldGit on November 26, 2011, 08:11:11 PM
The Burqa can be quite attractive
I have a new icon.
Quote from: BruceHead coverings don't bother me, but face coverings do, for the reasons mentioned by several above, plus for the reason that it prevents full communication.
I don't see where that's at all true -- as I mentioned before people on the phone and the blind have no problem communicating. I can't imagine anything in the workplace that can be screwed up by a missed facial cue. I also disagree that it detracts from human dignity -- this seems to me a very personal and particular perception and hardly something that's a universal given.
I do agree that masking a woman's entire face is a way to dehumanize them. I'm guessing that's WHY they do it in the middle east. e__e
Quote from: Sweetdeath on November 27, 2011, 03:09:38 AM
I do agree that masking a woman's entire face is a way to dehumanize them. I'm guessing that's WHY they do it in the middle east. e__e
I think it's a lot more complex than that, esp. as many women take it on voluntarily and I can't believe they think they're dehumanizing themselves. Also, I've heard of non-Muslim women who've tried on hajibs and even burqas and said it made them feel safe and protected for the first time in their lives -- which I believe is the standard Muslim justification for it. So, yeah, I think there's more to it than our cultural perceptions allow.
Ever heard of brain washing people from a very young age?
In Japan, men are raised to believe they are better than women. I doubt that is very far fetched from Muslim women being raised to believe they are to cover themselves or else "get what they deserve."
I digress...
I first heard this as a (http://www.alexbuzo.com.au/buzovalentine/buzovalentine.html) radio play, I can't find an audio file of it.
You can join this site (http://australianplays.org/) free for seven days and read it in full.
I do enjoy the movie equivalents of fast food, though it is good to consume something real occasionally.
QuoteThe story of Alana Valentine's new play SHAFANA AND AUNT SARRINAH
Award-winning playwright Alana Valentine takes up Buzo's astonishingly enduring themes through the story of a young Australian-born Muslim woman, who turns to the religion of her heritage for answers after the September 11 attacks in 2001, resulting in a deep experience of faith and a controversial decision to wear the hijab. SHAFANA AND AUNT SARRINAH is partly a plea for understanding, partly a bellow of rage from Muslim Australian women about the ignorance and misunderstanding that surrounds the wearing of the traditional Muslim headscarf. Based thoroughly on personal interviews and produced with the sustained support of a large number of Muslim women from a diversity of Muslim cultures, this short play addresses theatrical and social questions about representation, religious freedom and inter-generational conflict raised by Buzo. SHAFANA AND AUNT SARRINAH likewise will surprise audiences with its portrait of Afgani Muslim women who are articulate, highly educated, deeply spiritual and profoundly enraged by the portrait that is painted of them in the Australian and global media as oppressed, meek, and silent.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 26, 2011, 06:52:19 PM
Employers are just hyper-sensitive about the cultural messages their workers send out and whether it fits in with their own business image.
Pfft! On hot enough days, I have been known to wear above-knee shorts and one of those tank tops that looks like chainmail - you can see right through it. Completely unpunished by the employer who did not recieve a single complaint from the customers.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 27, 2011, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 26, 2011, 06:52:19 PM
Employers are just hyper-sensitive about the cultural messages their workers send out and whether it fits in with their own business image.
Pfft! On hot enough days, I have been known to wear above-knee shorts and one of those tank tops that looks like chainmail - you can see right through it. Completely unpunished by the employer who did not recieve a single complaint from the customers.
Yeah, I guess some employers are more sensitive than others.
Next time I think you should try wearing
actual chainmail, though. See how that goes.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 27, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
Next time I think you should try wearing actual chainmail, though. See how that goes.
Too expensive for me, and I have changed employer to someone who REALLY gives no fuck at all about what I look, smell or sound like as long as I get the job done (Although there can be some occasional begging for proper attire when meeting clients, which I ignore)
Former employer was a small store, just to pay my petrol bills while studying, and they were pretty much of the same opinion - as long as the quality of my work is good, the quality of my clothes or hairdo is secondary. And customers, they didn't care. They didn't come there to gawk at me - they came for newspapers and soda and hot dogs and all kinds of overpriced crap... Although I did get a few mutters out of some seriously bearded muslim in a silly hat once.
I know a lot of Moslem women choose to wear the Burqa because it's their tradition, and I know a lot of Europeans feel uneasy about it. It's really a clash of prejudices instilled in childhood.
In Tunisia last year a local lady went in our hotel pool in the full kit: black robes to the ankle, the lot. Apparently it's quite common, but I'd never seen it before. I struggled not to laugh openly, then I got over it. Mind you, she wasn't swimming lengths, that would have been a bit hard. ;D
I think the reason I object to burkhas on muslim women and also great big beards on muslim men is because they are advertising the fact that they are fucking deluded, and proud of it. It really fucks me off.
Quote from: OldGit on November 27, 2011, 01:05:35 PM
I know a lot of Moslem women choose to wear the Burqa because it's their tradition, and I know a lot of Europeans feel uneasy about it. It's really a clash of prejudices instilled in childhood.
In Tunisia last year a local lady went in our hotel pool in the full kit: black robes to the ankle, the lot. Apparently it's quite common, but I'd never seen it before. I struggled not to laugh openly, then I got over it. Mind you, she wasn't swimming lengths, that would have been a bit hard. ;D
Holy moly, that's one way to burn some extra calories during a swim, I guess. Wouldn't she be terribly uncomfortable after she got out? I've fallen into a lake with full clothes on, it's not very comfy squishing about afterwards.
Yeah, they do seem openly deluded, Norfolk.
I tend to laugh because my friend keeps saying "look, ninjas!" Whenever one passes our view.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on November 27, 2011, 03:57:40 AM
Ever heard of brain washing people from a very young age?
That can be said of any cultural practice or belief, anywhere. Plenty of Muslims have beliefs about us stemming from their perceptions of our culture that are just flat wrong -- I don't think it's far-fetched that we would also have misconceptions about their practices and beliefs.
Quote from: DeterminedJulietHoly moly, that's one way to burn some extra calories during a swim, I guess. Wouldn't she be terribly uncomfortable after she got out? I've fallen into a lake with full clothes on, it's not very comfy squishing about afterwards.
We left the pool before she did, but we just assumed she'd change into dry kit afterwards. For all we know, that was her swimming hijab which she changed into first. I'm glad to say her little boy and girl were in ordinary costumes and having a good time. The husband sat on a lounger and looked on.
A friend who has been an ex-pat all over the Middle East reckons it's normal, but she avoided these pools because the robes made them filthy.
Quote from: OldGit on November 27, 2011, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJulietHoly moly, that's one way to burn some extra calories during a swim, I guess. Wouldn't she be terribly uncomfortable after she got out? I've fallen into a lake with full clothes on, it's not very comfy squishing about afterwards.
We left the pool before she did, but we just assumed she'd change into dry kit afterwards. For all we know, that was her swimming hijab which she changed into first. I'm glad to say her little boy and girl were in ordinary costumes and having a good time. The husband sat on a lounger and looked on.
A friend who has been an ex-pat all over the Middle East reckons it's normal, but she avoided these pools because the robes made them filthy.
I know I've seen a picture of a woman surfing in a burqa somewhere, but when I went looking this is as close as I got: muslim women with surfboards (http://gallagherphoto.com/blog/archives/870)
The outfit they're wearing is called a "burqini", altho I think the bikini concept is entirely lost.
Quote from: OldGit on November 27, 2011, 05:09:08 PM
but she avoided these pools because the robes made them filthy.
I too avoid public swimming pools because there is ALWAYS someone making it filthy in some more or less creative way, from scabs to crap.
Burqkini...?
Damn, that's lame.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 27, 2011, 05:27:54 AM
You can join this site (http://australianplays.org/) free for seven days and read it in full.
Thanks for that link, I'm off the read the play now. And I think I'll follow it with the one about Satan in Arizona.